Intelligent Design or Evolution?

[blueblooded]

Interesting topic havent read the whole thread, but who really knows the answer, i'm not really religious at all, i dont believe in god as a person who moulded us in his image, i'm a catholic but i dont swallow the christian story.

The only thing that boggles my mind is how complex the universe is, how complex we are, how complex nature is around us, it all seems too perfect for it to have just happened by pure luck/evolution. For us to even be sitting here pondering this question is truly an amazing feat. If you are to believe this is all chance than you probably are no better than a person who thinks that God is a man with a beard in the clouds. I suppose given that i do believe in some form of Intelligent design which has manifested itself in the form of evolution.

Who knows the answer really, its really not even worth debating imo because imo whilst we are all on this earth all we'll ever have on the subject is a belief, we'll never know the full extent of it, its just too big of a concept! But carry on its quiet entertaining

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Interesting topic havent read the whole thread, but who really knows the answer, i'm not really religious at all, i dont believe in god as a person who moulded us in his image, i'm a catholic but i dont swallow the christian story.

The only thing that boggles my mind is how complex the universe is, how complex we are, how complex nature is around us, it all seems too perfect for it to have just happened by pure luck/evolution. For us to even be sitting here pondering this question is truly an amazing feat. If you are to believe this is all chance than you probably are no better than a person who thinks that God is a man with a beard in the clouds. I suppose given that i do believe in some form of Intelligent design which has manifested itself in the form of evolution.

Who knows the answer really, its really not even worth debating imo because imo whilst we are all on this earth all we'll ever have on the subject is a belief, we'll never know the full extent of it, its just too big of a concept! But carry on its quiet entertaining

This has probably been mentioned a million times on this thread, but evolution by means of natural selection is not random and is not dependent on chance. The only facet of evolution by means of natural selection that could be suggested to be random/due to chance is the mutation of genetic material, which forms the variation upon which natural forces act.

 

[FIGJAM]

Did you even listen to the last 3 minutes of that video? It was every bit the classic Christian characture .It subscribed all manner of attributes to God.

Actually, the last three minutes pretty much explains eastern religion to the letter!

Universal consciousness (Brahma's mind), the soul fragment (Atman), creative destructive forces (Shiva the creator and destroyer), souls suffering through ignorance of source (Buddha's fourfold path), trapped within the material plane (Samsara), path to return to source (enlightenment by eliminating desire to be repatriated), to return to perfection (Nirvana).

It's funny how we see what we want to see.....

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

If you guys (Karl and H2F) want to get an idea of what ID is all about then check out the documentary 'Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial'. This is the ID I have been referring to and not the design theory you guys have been trying to explain. It demonstrates the highly political nature of ID and its ultimate goal of undermining the scientific discipline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

[YOUTUBE]UiEP-XSApgY[/YOUTUBE]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-404729062613200911

 

[evo]

Actually, the last three minutes pretty much explains eastern religion to the letter!

Universal consciousness (Brahma's mind), the soul fragment (Atman), creative destructive forces (Shiva the creator and destroyer), souls suffering through ignorance of source (Buddha's fourfold path), trapped within the material plane (Samsara), path to return to source (enlightenment by eliminating desire to be repatriated), to return to perfection (Nirvana).

Yes,of course he does slip some of that stuff in to attempt to give his ramblings some sense of Eastern authenticity.

.....but then peppers it with the sort of stuff Dawkins attributed it to God you be crying characture..

eg "God reaches down from the Heavans above."

"Each entity posses a soul"

"this seperation was the original sin of seperation"

"Each soul was given free will"

"God loved each an every entity so much that he gave them a gift"

"..left the protection of God and have lost their way in temptation"

There were a few mnore but that' ll do.Sounded alot like my Cof E Sunday school teacher in parts quite frankly

That is some pretty neat tricks performed by "energy"

It's funny how we see what we want to see.....

Indeed.

 

[FIGJAM]

Yes,of course he does slip some of that stuff in to attempt to give his ramblings some sense of Eastern authenticity.

It was undertaken under deep trance meditation. It is not an egotistical opinion that deliberately laces in some Eastern slant for colour; don't be so cynical!

.....but then peppers it with the sort of stuff Dawkins attributed it to God you be crying characture...

The reason being is that Dawkins studies the end results of the human interpretation of mysticism, which are fictional in appearance due to the contamination of interpretation, but point blank refuses to acknowledge mysticism.

"God reaches down from the Heavans above."

As per the Tree of Life which details the various unfoldments of energy through the various dimensions (heavens). The Kabbalah and Hinduism are literally identical.

"Each entity posses a soul"

A "soul fragment". An atman. An essence. Its own zero point. Both Brahamic and Abrahamic (A braham).

"this seperation was the original sin of seperation"

We have of our own volution, entered into the physical realm. This realm is known in the Kabbalah as Malkuth. In Buddhism it is Samsara. By "sin" we are referring to karma.

"Each soul was given free will"

This is the same of all religions.

"God loved each an every entity so much that he gave them a gift"

The chance to be as you will isn't half bad! Without it, our conversation wouldn't exist.

"..left the protection of God and have lost their way in temptation"

Again, no different to us being ingrained in the Samsara and having become ignorant.

That is some pretty neat tricks performed by "energy"

Not half as amazing as nothing doing something.

 

[evo]

It was undertaken under deep trance meditation. It is not an egotistical opinion that deliberately laces in some Eastern slant for colour; don't be so cynical!

It seems to me whenever one imbue's Reality with supreme beings,souls,free will and so forth they exhibiting the very epitome of egotistical behaviour.

But I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on that.

The reason being is that Dawkins studies the end results of the human interpretation of mysticism, which are fictional in appearance due to the contamination of interpretation, but point blank refuses to acknowledge mysticism.

Yes fair enough,that is true.But I see that as a seperate complaint.

To be fair you and nearly every theist who critisizes tricky complains he makes a characture.But when asked to give an account you get statements like some of those I've highlighted--and this is supposedly from a sophisticated and insightful religious person.

As per the Tree of Life which details the various unfoldments of energy through the various dimensions (heavens). The Kabbalah and Hinduism are literally identical.


A "soul fragment". An atman. An essence. Its own zero point. Both Brahamic and Abrahamic (A braham).


We have of our own volution, entered into the physical realm. This realm is known in the Kabbalah as Malkuth. In Buddhism it is Samsara. By "sin" we are referring to karma.


This is the same of all religions.


The chance to be as you will isn't half bad! Without it, our conversation wouldn't exist.


Again, no different to us being ingrained in the Samsara and having become ignorant.

*sigh* You seem to have missed my point.

Not half as amazing as nothing doing something.

That seems to be the favourite strawman argument of theists these days.

 

[FIGJAM]

I'm going to leave it where is stands evo, because we will go around in circles forever.

I will leave you with the paradox as it stands; you ask for us to define "God" or the higher order of energy or whatever you'd like to refer to It as.

If we do, it gets snowballed into anthropomorphism, because human-like qualities make the end entity, in the mind of the interpreter, an anthropomorphic puppet master.

In the event that we sight its no-thingness (Ain in Hebrew, Sat in Sanskrit), then we are sternly advised that nothing else is required except for the forces of nature.

There is this dual problem and it can be twisted either way to suit an argument. Of course duality is something that doesn't exist at unity.

I will leave you with something better said than I could have said and it may be its synthesis:

Space is neither a “limitless void,” nor a “conditioned fulness,” but both: being, on the plane of absolute abstraction, the ever-incognizable Deity, which is void only to finite minds...

The Secret Doctrine - H. P. Blavatsky

 

[Karl Pilkington]

bloody hell, we are twins...

Except you got all the height, apparently.

 

[evo]

I

If we do, it gets snowballed into anthropomorphism, because human-like qualities make the end entity, in the mind of the interpreter, an anthropomorphic puppet master.

It has to mate,and the reason is because it is a man made construct.Your video illustrates this point perfectly in my opinion.

For 6 or 7 minutes the 'seer' goes to great lengths to establish "its" ineffability.How it is beyong human comprehension and so forth;fair enough.In fact I don't even mind the electricity analogy.

However once this is established, he(a human) ,then proceeds to tell us what 'it' can do.What it's design and purpose is, and on and on. It is philosophical mendacity!! ...pure and simple.

That is my primary gripe with all religions that posit a creator God.

"The emporer has no clothes!" : It has to be said.

Space is neither a “limitless void,” nor a “conditioned fulness,” but both: being, on the plane of absolute abstraction, the ever-incognizable Deity, which is void only to finite minds...

The Secret Doctrine - H. P. Blavatsky

and that is totally consistent with nondualism........no creator being required.

 

[FIGJAM]

and that is totally consistent with nondualism........no creator being required.

Yes, the Hindu concept of nondualism. Or Advaita Vedanta.

But there is also emanationism from this nondual state...

 

[evo]

But there is also emanationism from this nondual state...

You can't resist adding faith based layers.

 

[FIGJAM]

You can't resist adding faith based layers.

Who needs faith when you can experience them?

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

This thread has reached epic proportions (500+ posts).

 

[Richo83]

Who needs faith when you can experience them?

I saw the lord I did, he came down and touched me on the head! Then he said that Jesus would come down and smite all the heathens! Saw it with my own eyes I did!

 

[FIGJAM]

I saw the lord I did, he came down and touched me on the head! Then he said that Jesus would come down and smite all the heathens! Saw it with my own eyes I did!

Why don't you actually engage in astral projection instead of badmouthing it with prejudice?

It doesn't bite! You won't go insane.

 

[Richo83]

Why don't you actually engage in astral projection instead of badmouthing it with prejudice?

It doesn't bite! You won't go insane.

How about you call a spade a spade and stop using fancy words? "Astral projection" is just a new age hippy version of feeling the holy spirit. Yeah it's a little different but the idea, a spiritual reailty outside normal existence is basically the same.

Since you're embraced this "god" and are praising the powers of spiritual feeling, will you be moving to Alabama to join a Baptist church? Testify figgy! Or should I say evo, hosanna!

 

[Schism]

Why don't you actually engage in astral projection instead of badmouthing it with prejudice?

It doesn't bite! You won't go insane.

[YOUTUBE]A5Yj6ImVc1k[/YOUTUBE]

 

[FIGJAM]

How about you call a spade a spade and stop using fancy words? "Astral projection" is just a new age hippy version of feeling the holy spirit. Yeah it's a little different but the idea, a spiritual reailty outside normal existence is basically the same.

And here I was thiking that you had some vague idea of what I was talking about!

 

[Mario the Lothario]

It's funny how we see what we want to see.....

What if we create what we want to see?

That would certainly explain the materialists completely missing the point.

 

[Richo83]

And here I was thiking that you had some vague idea of what I was talking about!

I know figgy what this thing is, out of body experience, planes of reality, the "astral" planes (often seven) in which they venture and other terms to be immersed in. I've been told about people's "astral reality" by a few mystics/kooks before.

My holy spirit referrence is that many Christians say they transcend the material sphere to the spiritual sphere and engage with the holy spirit, the spirit of god. Their soul touches god as such. Classic dualist earth/heaven split. Your idea sounds similar of course, instead you use words like planes instead of heavens.

 

[.Shotties.]

Homo spaiens are said to come from apes? Yet that required a reduction of chromsones from 48 to 46, dimishished brain size but massively increased ability and both co existed! ( was that due to a localised environemental influence?)

Humans didn't come from chimps or apes as they are now, humans and apes shared a common anscestor.

 

[FIGJAM]

I know figgy what this thing is, out of body experience, planes of reality, the "astral" planes (often seven) in which they venture and other terms to be immersed in. I've been told about people's "astral reality" by a few mystics/kooks before.

There are seven (plus).

My holy spirit referrence is that many Christians say they transcend the material sphere to the spiritual sphere and engage with the holy spirit, the spirit of god. Their soul touches god as such.

Sometimes this is an egotistical "experience" that has literally nothing to do with the astral.

Classic dualist earth/heaven split. Your idea sounds similar of course, instead you use words like planes instead of heavens.

You can use the term dimensions for all I care. Maybe chazwazzers!

All that matters is that the phenomena exists. This has been proven. So why do you reject it without investigation?

I have given you atheistic minded physicists who have undergone OBE research and they come back telling you what I am telling you. But you write them off as "kooks". You believe that this phenomena is a certain way.

The reality is that nobody, and I mean nobody, can prove this to you externally. You have to prove this for yourself.

Even if Dawkins did it and achieved enlightenment and explained all this to you, you would then argue that he became a "kook" and brainwashed himself.

Kant was right; pure empericism is for the ignorant!

 

[Richo83]

There are seven (plus).

That's nice.

Sometimes this is an egotistical "experience" that has literally nothing to do with the astral.

And sometimes it does.

You can use the term dimensions for all I care. Maybe chazwazzers!

All that matters is that the phenomena exists. This has been proven. So why do you reject it without investigation?

I have given you atheistic minded physicists who have undergone OBE research and they come back telling you what I am telling you. But you write them off as "kooks". You believe that this phenomena is a certain way.

The reality is that nobody, and I mean nobody, can prove this to you externally. You have to prove this for yourself.

Even if Dawkins did it and achieved enlightenment and explained all this to you, you would then argue that he became a "kook" and brainwashed himself.

Kant was right; pure empericism is for the ignorant!

Because most of the "investigation" is just people saying "yes I feel it! It's true!" It's like Muslims saying we must feel allah before commenting on it. Heh. You say that if Dawkins claimed so, even I would disagree, doesn't that mean I am committed to standards of proof no matter what anyone says? I mean it would be worse if I just listened to everything dick says. Anyway, YOU said that this must be experienced, it must be an a posteriori experience, all you're doing is using another system and structure of proof, yet you are proving this the same way a empiricist does, via observation. I said to you, that I'm more interested in proccesses and logic rather than "feeling and sensing things". Kant is right, that pure empiricism is bunk, yet if you think that my arguments consist of "we can't put the astral plane in a test tube ipso facto, it's bunk" then you're wrong. Anyway, you're claims that your spiritual planes are proven are as silly as the scientist who says he can prove god's non existence via the scientific model. Fact is your system is philosophically empty, sure has alot of spiritual mystic stuff though.

 

[TheBloods]

It's staggering that people still believe in Intelligent Design or Creationism over Evolution. This is borne out of incredulity through ignorance. As if some of the solutions nature arrives at to solve problems would be the approach from an intelligent designer.