Is Dan24's finals system right or wrong? VOTE NOW!

[sbagman]

There is a gaping chasm in the analogy.

The Champion's league pits teams against each other which would not ordinarily meet. As there are so many teams in the Europe, they can't all play, so the best are selected on the basis of league position.

This theory is different. The Cup that Dan proposes takes the top eight teams, which have already battled it out during the season. The number eight seems to be pretty arbitrary, so if you are going to have the cup at all, you may as well put everyone in it. The connection with the league would be strained as it is, you may as well break it. The danger in this proposal is that the 'cup' would be devalued. It is an achievement for a team to qualify for the Champions league because they have to finish very high in their domestic league. It is not an achievement to finish eighth. I personally would love to see heaps and heaps of clubs in a FA cup style comp. Imagine a player from North Ballarat telling his kids about how he lined up against Matty Lloyd! Imagine the buzz in a small country town as the local club battles an AFL club! Maybe it's sheer folly, but it's nice to imagine.

You can't really compare the Champions league and this because qualification for the AFL would come from the same pool of teams, and so by taking away the all-or-nothing finals, you would have a greatlty devalued 'cup'.

 

[Same Old's]

Yeah I know what your saying however I was just commenting on how the H&A season and the finals would not be linked just like how the champions league and the domestic league's are not linked. That's all.

 

[sbagman]

They are linked in a way that the CL is not... the teams involved.

What does anyone think of my FA Cup idea, by the way? The more I think about it the more I like it... except for the lopsided scorelines... soccer lends itself better to this sort of comp because upsets are easier in soccer.

 

[ptw]

I have let Roylion do all the work (& ODN...welcome back !) but will have one more go and try not to go around in circles.

First lets revisit locic 101.

1. All dogs have fleas.
2. Scruff is a dog
3. Therefore Scruff has fleas.

To disprove this you must show several dogs which don't have fleas, or show that scruff has fins and breathes through gills.

Now.......(keep that in mind)


1. Right now the grand final is the utlimate, as the whole season rides on one game.

2. Under the Dan system the H&A champ is the utlimate.

3. Therefore the Grand Final has gone down in status. ----------(1)

I think that this is actually the crux of the new system....based on the premise that there is too much emphasis on the GF and not enough on the H&A.

In isolation most people would agree that this is a bad thing (just the GF going down bit not the H&A going up)

---------------------------

1. Under the current system the H&A champs are generally not recognised.

2. Under the Dan model they are the season premiers.

3. Therefore the H&A champs have gone up in status. Most people would agree that this is a good thing.--------(2)

--------------------------------

I can't disprove either of those conclusions.

--------------------------------

From here on in it gets entirely subjective. HOW MUCH has the GF gone down and HOW MUCH has the H&A gone up will depend entirely on one's perspective (how much do you value the GF, or H&A champs in the first place, and how significant do you think the change is).

Dan and Same Olds.......

I assume that you agree with (1) and (2) above....if not then please tell me where my logic is wrong.

Dan.....you weigh up (1) vs (2) and for you it is a no brainer. I weigh up (1) vs (2) and for me it is a no brainer. The thing is the arguement cannot be won because the magnitude of the change is entirely subjective and is not a matter of fact.

So for me, I agree to disagree. If you can prove to me that the GF will not go backwards at all (difficult as it is now the ultimate)then I can be swayed....but until then it comes down to a subjective measure of the magnitude of (1) vs (2) above, and I will stick to my view that the negatives outweigh the positives.

In your mind it is clear, as it is in mine, Same Old's, Roylions and ODN's.....because at the end of the day it is a subjective analysis of two logically sound conclusions.

There is no right answer. The best we can do is vote which has been done.

ptw

 

[elt]

Excellent post ptw.

 

[The Dutchman!]

329 posts!!!

WTF?????

You all have too much time on your hands - and I'll bet that over half of these are Dan's....

Bluey - I urge you - take it out the back paddock and put it out of its misery....

 

[Dan26]

ptw,

Firstly, this is NOT about taking anything away from the Grand Final. It's about ADDING recognition to the Home and away. I've already explained how the FA CUP is NOT the most prestigious thing to win, but this doesn't seem to matter to the fans. Same in my system.

The Grand Final, is the Grand Final. I've also explained numerous times that they are already seperate now, so the winner of the final series has really only won a 4-week tournament right NOW. Technically, they are "called" whole seaosn champions, but to get called this, they only need to play well for 4 weeks. So, really, it is already "unofficially" a separate competition anyway. The fans aren't stupid. They know this. You know it. We all know, that to get called "whole season champs', you only need to win the 4 week finals series. Therefore, making it "oficially" a separate tournament will just make it how it "really" is now, anyway !

You see, when the finals start, the previous 22 weeks is irrelevant, anyaway. It counts for nothing. So why does everyone claim that that GF winner is "whole-season-26-week" champs, when the first 22 weeks is deemed irrelevant, and the premiers is ONLY determined from the 4 week finals? SEE ! It's really that way right now. It just needs to be official to give it more credibility.

I already expalined how the fans don't even care if they're not the best team. They want the glory of winning the Grand Final. Similarly, soccer fans, would love to win top spot, but nothing beats the "glory" and excitement of a knockout cup final. Nothing. You don;t get that in the regualr "top spot" soccer season. And you don't get it in the H&A either. You only get that excitement in the finals.

You don't seem to realise that the GF will still be the LAST match of the years. It won't just be played in the middle of the year. It will be the most memorable moment of the season because :

A.) There won't be another match for 5 months. It will be the last thing we remember about the season.

B.) Unlike the SEPERATE Home and away champion, the 4 week tournament has teams survival on the line in ONE game. It all comes down to one game. It is knockout, and a knockout cup is hugely exciting for the fans......especially when it culminates the season.

Someone said that they will still be linked. This is not true. Sure, to qualify for the 4 week tournament you have to finish in the top 8. That's true. But you have to finish high on the ladder to qualify for the champions league in soccer too.

The fact, that all 8 teams will be treated equally, makes it seperate. Teams will be "seeded" on their Home and way form, so that 1st and 2nd get the opportunity to play in the Grand Final if they keep winning. Having a double chance, mans that teams will be striving to get a double chance. If there are NO double chances, teams will be striving to finish on top !

This is no different to tennis players being seeded in a tennis tournament based on previous tournaments which determine their rankings.

My 4 week tournament is designed to JUST have the best 8 teams in the country. - cut out the crap. Just have the best 8 playing amongst themselves in a knockout cup to finish the season.

I might add one more thing :

In tennis, wimbledon is the biggest tournament to win. It gives the winner the most "glory". However, the winner doesn't automatically become the number one player in the world. The number ONE ranking is achieved through winning, winning and more winning over a long period of time. If you win one tournament, this won't be enough to get you to the number one ranking. You need to do more than that.

People like Roylion, and ptw would therefore think that Wimbleaon isn't a big event. Going by their logic, since the winner of Wimbledon only wins a tournament and they CAN'T call themselves the "premier" tennis player in the world, then this means that it won't be very prestigiius. Obviously they would be wrong.

We all know that Wimbledon is prestigious, as are all the Grand Slams.

The Grand Slams have the BEST players in the world playing against each other in a knockout tournament (similar to my system). In this knockout tournament, the winner gets the glory of winning and the final is a huge event (Grand slam final are huge, admit it). Yet, the winner of these Grand Slam finals, DON'T automaticaly become number one in the rankings. Yet, this doesn't affect the "glory" and "event status" of the Grand Slam finals one bit !

See the similarity? The winner of a knockout cup, whether it be Wimbledon, or the FA CUP, or the French Open, doesn't need to be "premiers" (i.e whole season champs, or the number one player in the world) for the event to be huge.

Surely that will show you all, that the Grand Final, in my system will still be the biggest individual one-off match of the year.

 

[Dan26]

[This message has been edited by Dan24 (edited 08 December 2000).]

 

[ptw]

Originally posted by Dan24:
Firstly, this is NOT about taking anything away from the Grand Final. It's about ADDING recognition to the Home and away.

Did you actually read my post Dan ? Tell me how the GF is not diminished if it is no longer played for the premiership ?

I've already explained how the FA CUP is NOT the most prestigious thing to win, but this doesn't seem to matter to the fans. Same in my system.

yes you have...time and time again...but that does not answer my question. The GF could be as successful as the FA cup but it would still be less than it is now.

The Grand Final, is the Grand Final. I've also explained numerous times that they are already seperate now, so the winner of the final series has really only won a 4-week tournament right NOW. Technically, they are "called" whole seaosn champions, but to get called this, they only need to play well for 4 weeks. So, really, it is already "unofficially" a separate competition anyway.

Except that now it is played for the premiership Dan.

The fans aren't stupid. They know this. You know it. We all know, that to get called "whole season champs', you only need to win the 4 week finals series. Therefore, making it "oficially" a separate tournament will just make it how it "really" is now, anyway !

It goes down in status because it is not being played for the premiership Dan.

You see, when the finals start, the previous 22 weeks is irrelevant, anyaway. It counts for nothing. So why does everyone claim that that GF winner is "whole-season-26-week" champs, when the first 22 weeks is deemed irrelevant, and the premiers is ONLY determined from the 4 week finals? SEE ! It's really that way right now. It just needs to be official to give it more credibility.

I didn't say this Dan...I just said that the GF goes down in status relative to where it is now.

I already expalined how the fans don't even care if they're not the best team. They want the glory of winning the Grand Final. Similarly, soccer fans, would love to win top spot, but nothing beats the "glory" and excitement of a knockout cup final. Nothing. You don;t get that in the regualr "top spot" soccer season. And you don't get it in the H&A either. You only get that excitement in the finals.

Yes. Except that any fan or club would give up 10 cups for 1 league premiership.

You don't seem to realise that the GF will still be the LAST match of the years. It won't just be played in the middle of the year. It will be the most memorable moment of the season because :

A.) There won't be another match for 5 months. It will be the last thing we remember about the season.

B.) Unlike the SEPERATE Home and away champion, the 4 week tournament has teams survival on the line in ONE game. It all comes down to one game. It is knockout, and a knockout cup is hugely exciting for the fans......especially when it culminates the season.

Actually the last game of the year was Crows v Mlb at The Oval and no-one gave a toss because it counted for nothing.

Someone said that they will still be linked. This is not true. Sure, to qualify for the 4 week tournament you have to finish in the top 8. That's true. But you have to finish high on the ladder to qualify for the champions league in soccer too.

I read once that you lose 40 calories an hour bashing your head against a brick wall. Why havn't I noticed the loss of weight ?

The fact, that all 8 teams will be treated equally, makes it seperate. Teams will be "seeded" on their Home and way form, so that 1st and 2nd get the opportunity to play in the Grand Final if they keep winning. Having a double chance, mans that teams will be striving to get a double chance. If there are NO double chances, teams will be striving to finish on top !

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

This is no different to tennis players being seeded in a tennis tournament based on previous tournaments which determine their rankings.

My 4 week tournament is designed to JUST have the best 8 teams in the country. - cut out the crap. Just have the best 8 playing amongst themselves in a knockout cup to finish the season.

If you say so Dan.

I might add one more thing :

Why stop now ?

In tennis, wimbledon is the biggest tournament to win. It gives the winner the most "glory". However, the winner doesn't automatically become the number one player in the world. The number ONE ranking is achieved through winning, winning and more winning over a long period of time. If you win one tournament, this won't be enough to get you to the number one ranking. You need to do more than that.

People like Roylion, and ptw would therefore think that Wimbleaon isn't a big event. Going by their logic, since the winner of Wimbledon only wins a tournament and they CAN'T call themselves the "premier" tennis player in the world, then this means that it won't be very prestigiius. Obviously they would be wrong.

We all know that Wimbledon is prestigious, as are all the Grand Slams.

The Grand Slams have the BEST players in the world playing against each other in a knockout tournament (similar to my system). In this knockout tournament, the winner gets the glory of winning and the final is a huge event (Grand slam final are huge, admit it). Yet, the winner of these Grand Slam finals, DON'T automaticaly become number one in the rankings. Yet, this doesn't affect the "glory" and "event status" of the Grand Slam finals one bit !

See the similarity? The winner of a knockout cup, whether it be Wimbledon, or the FA CUP, or the French Open, doesn't need to be "premiers" (i.e whole season champs, or the number one player in the world) for the event to be huge.

Surely that will show you all, that the Grand Final, in my system will still be the biggest individual one-off match of the year.

Oh yes...now I see...it is all clear.

I give up.

Kill it Grendel...Kill it...ppppplllllleeeeeaaaaassssse

I am an addict I know...but kill it for my own good, before I try to start to be reasonable again.

ptw


[This message has been edited by ptw (edited 08 December 2000).]

 

[Grendel]

ptw, loved your last post prior to the one above.

I gave up the argument with Dan way back when because of a similar feeling to what i think your going through now, you have my sympathy.

If enough people ask for it to disappear then okay its gone and im sorry for what i put you all through. But there are those that i feel want it to stay (no i dont know why either).

The main point of it all was (and still is) to see if (Dan are you listening to me) the very well argued but still fundamently flawed perspective that is Dans system, was

a) influential enough to get what i consider a pretty intelligent crowd to sway to his point of view.

or

b) if though conceding that there are good points to it (which there are) they still felt that in the situation with the competion set up as is, in an Australian enviorment, with NO outside factors influencing nor needing to influence the competition, and finally my own view that it just cannot work in an uneven draw That the system is wrong.

Ive read this topic VERY closely since its divergence from what its origianl intent was. The arguments 'for' still to me at least dont equate to the arguments 'against'.

In the end, after all the posts and all the point and counter point arguments, i thought that maybe a clear vote might just see where it all stood.

What that says for my intelligence i dont know.

One thing though, thanks to everyone for making it the most talked about thread of the year. At least i can claim that *dubious* honour if nothing else.

Cheers

had to shout the bar

 

[ptw]

thanks for the drink Grendel I needed it.

I have calmed down now.

You should leave the post up for one and only one reason.

One day someone will post as their first effort an idea that we award the flag to the H&A premiers.

We can then point them to this thread (and all the others I gather) and ask them to come back later if they still want to continue the discussion.

sort of like a warning or something

ptw

[This message has been edited by ptw (edited 08 December 2000).]

 

[jod23]

Just thought seen as this was the longest post in Bigfooty history i would have my name in it.

Umm No

Big Fat NO

oh and who the hell let the dogs out??

 

[Hawkforce.]

ptw, welcome to the Dan24 argument-recovery-clinic.

It is now that we are able to remember the point.

IE:

There is nothing wrong with the following suggestion -

"More recognition should be given to the Minor Premier"

Only Dan could take such an easy premise and argue it into oblivion (hmmm... did he work for the Republican momement?).

This discussion never arose until the finals system was changed in the 90's.

Until then, the advantage given to the minor premier was ABSOLUTELY worth fighting for.

But Dan, in his inimitable way, has thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

In fact he threw a veritable NURSERY out with the bath water!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Haven't got time to debate that Wimbledon analogy but if it's here when I get back then I will.

Dan, you last description of the finals series was in fact a post season Ansett Cup using only half the teams. Nothing less.
You have tripped yourself up with your own skipping rope again.

See you all in 2001.

------------------
mens sana in corpore sano - a sound mind in a sound body

 

[Dan26]

ODN's

Obviously you are incapable of differentiatign between what is pre-season and what is not pre-season.

The Ansett Cup is PRE f*cking SEASON. Do you hear me.......PRE-SEASON.

Do you think the FA CUP is considered some (the final is held as the last match of the season) pre-season style cup???

Of course not !

My system does NOT have the GF as some pre-season match as you seem to think. It is held at the culmination of the season. Is that too hard to understand? Is that too difficult for you to see? Obviously it is, because you don't seem to understad the differecne between the "SEASON", and the "PRE-SEASON"

The Grand Final, under my system is part of the season. In the season, there are two cups to win. The Home and away premiership, and the elite-4-week-knockout-finals-series-tournanment which will conclude the season. The Ansett Cup is designed to get teams fit and ready for the actual footy season and the various trophys up for grabs within that season.

Obviously, my knockout cup, will be exciting, since Wimbledon is a knockout comp and that is prestigious and exciting too, but it DOES NOT decide the "premier" tennis player in the world (nor should it), exactly like my cup doesn't decide the premeirs (why should it?)

Just like Roylion and ptw, you don't seem to understand the "glory' and "event" and most importantly, the "MOMENT" that the Grand Final will always give as long as it is the last match of the season.

If you are going to compare something to a "PRE-SEASON" competition, then make sure you use a pre-season comparison. Comparing my sytem to the Ansett Cup is one of the most stupid and idiotic posts I have even read, and I am being kind to you. If you can't see the difference between "SEASON" and "PRE-SEASON", then you are truly stupid.

Really, am I being too harsh on you? Think about what you just said, and you will probably realise that calling you stupid is going easy on you, when you take into account the idiotic statement which you made.

 

[Woofer]

Dan this is not England. I don't care how the F.A cup is run leave the AUSSIE game alone there is nothing wrong with it.


Anyway isn't the F.A cup won by the same 3 or 4 teams every year we don't want to make our game that boring. Do we?

 

[Westy Boy]

Originally posted by Dan24:

Do you think the FA CUP is considered some pre-season style cup???

Of course not !

Dan,
Do you think the FA CUP is considered some post-season style cup???

Of course not!

"If you are going to compare something to a "POST-SEASON" competition, then make sure you use a post-season comparison. Comparing your system to the FA Cup is one of the most stupid and idiotic posts I have even read, and I am being kind to you."

On my way to Hawkforce's- D24's argument-recovery-clinic now. Giving away the drink was so much easier!

[This message has been edited by Westy Boy (edited 10 December 2000).]

 

[CJH]

Just being sadistic!

------------------
This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

 

[ptw]

hello everybody

thank you for letting me come to the Hawkforce Rehab Clinic.

my name is ptw and I am a DanAholic, I have been trying to convince Dan for about 6 weeks now.

*All* - Welcome ptw

I have been dry now for 3 days since my last post.

I JUST CAN'T HANDLE IT.

I POST AND POST AND POST, I TRY TO BE REASONABLE, I USE WORDS OF 1 SYALLABLE, I USE DEDUCTIVE LOGIC, PUN, PARADY AND SATIRE.

HE JUST DOESN'T LISTEN AND THEN QUOTES THE FA CUP.
.
.
.
.
.
THE FA CUP
.
.
.
.
.
.
THE FA CUP
.
.
.
.
.
.
THE FA CUP

I have often felt like ending it all. Ringing my ISP and getting them to bar the IP address of bigfooty to give me back my life.


*sniff* I'm sorry.


I cannot help myself. I see the hypocrcacy, the contradictions, the examples used which can be turned against themselves. I cannot let such things go un-noticed.

*sob*,*sob*,*sob*

I'm sorry, I can't go on........


ptw

 

[Gonzo]

ptw

LOL

I'm afraid to say that you probably will never fully recover - just when you think that you are over it and all's well, you'll read a thread, a paragraph, a sentence, that you can't ignore, and you just have to respond.

That's ok - we'll understand

Cheers

Gonzo

 

[johnson]

I'd be in favour of NO FINALS and doing it like a Premier League system with a 30 round season!!!

------------------
Respect. Keep the peace.

 

[elt]

Hmmmm .... how can the tennis analogy possibly be a good one when you consider :

• The large number of tennis tournaments played for the year (all knockout), hardly comparable to a round robin H&A season.
• Winning Wimbledon or any other Grand Slam tournament can contribute to obtaining the number one ranking.
• In fact the big tournaments contribute more than anything else (what a novel idea!)
• The number one ranking in tennis usually only refers to a particular moment in time and even those who become number one in the world are presented with a token trophy (hmmm that sounds familiar)

Anyway that's it for me. I'm off to check into the clinic. I told myself I wouldn't reply *shakes head and wanders off aimlessly*

 

[Dan26]

elt,

What, do you expect the tennis analogy to identically represent the AFL one do you?

Obviously there are going to be differences.

The main point I was trying to make, was that the biggest tennis matches are the finals of tournaments - One-off knockout matches where you HAVE to win. Rankings, and all that are meningless by this time, as all the competitors just want the glory of winning that one-off match and getting the "glory" of winning a knockout cup.

Yet, the number one ranking is a huge thing to win too. I remember when Mats Wilander obtained the number one ranking (he had already won numerous Grand Slams) back in 1988, his carrer went downhill, because he had achieved what he considered to be the ultimate (the number one ranking) and his motivation went AWOL.

It's a good example of how the tennis number one ranking is a huge title to strive for. Being officially the number one ranked player in the world is something only a select few can ever say they have done. However, the "glory" of winning a knockout cup, even though it doesn't make you number one (although it helps, but that's not why the players want to win) is still the biggest individual "MOMENT" you can get in tennis, since a trophy is on the line due to the result of one match.

And it's exactly why our Grand Final will lose NOTHING. One-off knockout mathces are always the most exciting. Having the "whole-season" on the line as it is NOW, is really stupid. The whole season doesn't need to be on the line, for the Grand Final to be big. That would be like saying the soccer premiership would need to be on the line in the FA CUP final, for that match to mean something. Yet, the premiership has already been won, and that doesn't affect the FA CUP one bit !!

Imagine having the top 16 (or 32, even) ranked tennis players in the world playing a knockout tournament in Decemeber, according to their rankings (eg 1v32, 2v31 etc). Now imagine if the 14th ranked tennis player won that tournament, and immediately became the number one ranked player. Wouldn't that be stupid ? Remember the top ranked players would only need one loss to eliminate them, and anyone can lose one match.

If this farcical situation happened, it would be ridiculous. Fancy the winner of one tournament becoming number one, with that tournament overriding and deeming irrelevant all the previous matches from that year.

Yet, you people would probably think this would be OK, because if that hapened, then that tournament would be huge because it puts the "whole tennis season" on the line.

Now obviously it is NOT done this way. The "whole tennis season" is NOT on the line. And it doesnt need to be (and shouldn't be either, most importantly). These knockout tournaments and cups are HUGE anyway, because they generate excitement with the very nature of their "knockout" status.

That's why the FA CUP is huge, even though the premeirship has already been decided. That's why the 4 Grand Slam finals are huge, even though the 4 of them are seperate tournaments in their own right.

And it's also why our Grand Final will continue to be huge under my system. The whole season doesn't need (or more importantly, doesn't DESERVE to be) on the line in one match. The Grand Final will be big anyway.

 

[elt]

"What, do you expect the tennis analogy to identically represent the AFL one do you?"

No I expect it should at least be vaguely similar and relevant. Under your proposal the knockout tournament is completely separate to the number one ranking (premier) whereas Grand Slam tennis events are the biggest contributor to the number one ranking. That to me means it is not a good analogy.

I have no doubt that plenty of tennis players strive to be number one in the world that is not the issue. Sampras' record of seven consecutive years of finshing number one in the world is most impressive. Just as I would say that if Essendon finished minor premiers seven years in a row it would be impressive.

"Imagine having the top 16 (or 32, even) ranked tennis players in the world playing a knockout tournament in Decemeber etc etc"

Ever heard of the Grand Slam Cup Dan?

The reason you should take note of it is that it highlights one of my main issues with your system. It is the top eight players in the world competing in the last event of the year (sound familiar?). Every year it has very little interest as all the major titles (usually including Mats Wilander's precious no1) have already been decided. Please don't tell me this is because it gets no recognition, it has the most prize money of any event on the tour.

Personally I agree with the idea of giving top spot more recognition. Even after all your arguments I am not convinced your way is the best way of doing it. We are not going to convince each other so I don't see much point in continuing the argument. My main purpose in the first posting (and indeed this one) was to illustrate that your tennis analogy is imho a poor one.

 

[The invisible mullet]

with all due respect NO