Jamar only got a 1 year deal!?!

[Bartram_Class]

Just trawling the archive of news on the MFC site...

Correct me if I'm wrong but Addam 'shown nothing special yet' Maric has snagged himself a two-year deal but the big Russian, after interest from Port Adelaide, could only get himself one year and, sinking to lower depths, had his new contract revealed in an article alongside Miller?

Poor stuff Dean.

In all seriousness, I know Jamar has had injury problems, but his handful of games this year were the best we've had from a Demons ruckman since Whitey's AA year.

I can understand some of the apprehension after the infamous Bell/Newton two-year deal saga, but they were rubbish then and still are. The Russian comparatively, is in town. They've shot themselves in the foot if (when) he has a big 2010, because he can demand what he wants come seasons end ala Bizzell, Yze and Davey last year.

The Russian will bend us over.

 

[WattsGoodForYou]

No really a surprise, I would think it was done as to keep pressure on him to perform. In reality prior to this season he was only OK or as Bailey might put it "competitive". Its a smart move IMO.

 

[Capt_Concussion]

Mayble Bailey doesn't see him as a good enough talent to be a premiership ruckman and is hoping he can score another earlyish pick off the GC or something to complete his young side?

Or does that not work because the GC can just take him if they want because he's an uncontracted player and we don't get anything?

 

[omit]

Mayble Bailey doesn't see him as a good enough talent to be a premiership ruckman and is hoping he can score another earlyish pick off the GC or something to complete his young side?

Or does that not work because the GC can just take him if they want because he's an uncontracted player and we don't get anything?

we'd get a compensation pick which we can use after GWS have entered the comp (we'd have 5 years to use the pick)

for someone like Jamar it would probably be a 3rd or 4th round selection

 

[Dez!]

Just trawling the archive of news on the MFC site...

Correct me if I'm wrong but Addam 'shown nothing special yet' Maric has snagged himself a two-year deal but the big Russian, after interest from Port Adelaide, could only get himself one year and, sinking to lower depths, had his new contract revealed in an article alongside Miller?

Poor stuff Dean.

In all seriousness, I know Jamar has had injury problems, but his handful of games this year were the best we've had from a Demons ruckman since Whitey's AA year.

I can understand some of the apprehension after the infamous Bell/Newton two-year deal saga, but they were rubbish then and still are. The Russian comparatively, is in town. They've shot themselves in the foot if (when) he has a big 2010, because he can demand what he wants come seasons end ala Bizzell, Yze and Davey last year.

The Russian will bend us over.

It may have something to do with Maric being about 10 years younger than Jamar and making sure we've got our young players signed up before GC and GWS enter the competition?

Don't know what's with the dig at Maric, superb young talent.

 

[Bartram_Class]

It may have something to do with Maric being about 10 years younger than Jamar and making sure we've got our young players signed up before GC and GWS enter the competition?

Don't know what's with the dig at Maric, superb young talent.

7 years.

And at this stage, I'd be a great deal more concerned about losing Jamar to the GC next year than Maric, whose type is a lot easier found than a 200cm ruckman. Why give Maric two years because we are worried about him being poached, yet not care similarly about the Russian?

Don't get me wrong, I don't even necessarily disagree with the decision to give Maric a two-year deal, but he's got that deal on potential, not what he has shown us so far. Jamar comparatively has runs on the board, and unlike someone like Miller, Cheney or Bartram, has no serious contender coming up from underneath to nip his spot.

Think of the situation, if Jamar has a big 2010 (and fitness IMO is the only barrier to that), our decision here screws us one way or the other, either we will end up paying him over the odds or clubs elsewhere will come in and take him off our hands. Look at Mumford, had a half-decent year and Sydney offered him a huge deal to leave the Cats. Ruckmen are sought-after.

Maybe there are genuine fears about his body lasting a full year, who knows. I still believe we have erred.

 

[The Professor]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Addam 'shown nothing special yet' Maric has snagged himself a two-year deal but the big Russian, after interest from Port Adelaide, could only get himself one year and, sinking to lower depths, had his new contract revealed in an article alongside Miller?

Poor stuff Dean.

Maric has completed 2 years of football (You could even argue 1 as his first year, he was still at school and training part time). Jamar has played 8 years at AFL and while he has played well this year (7 games), you cannot seriously argue he has ironed out his inconsistency with form and intensity from those 7 games.

Jamar has had 8 odd years, keep him on his toes and make him earn his another 2 years. Maric is a school boy who's about to enter his 3rd year.

No brainer that one.

 

[SugarHealey]

I believe we had an opportunity to trade, but in the end didn't.
I believe this puts both the Russian & ourselves in a better position, the reason, being that Jamar won't be around when we're ready for a flag tilt. We're about 5 years away from a Grand Final & the Russian will be over 30 something. One more year helps him & us find a suitable trade next season or the one after, still helping us through this period of developing our young rucks.
Jamar would be 26/7 yrs & would be in demand at that time for prospective GrandFinalists.

 

[Dez!]

I believe we had an opportunity to trade, but in the end didn't.
I believe this puts both the Russian & ourselves in a better position, the reason, being that Jamar won't be around when we're ready for a flag tilt. We're about 5 years away from a Grand Final & the Russian will be over 30 something. One more year helps him & us find a suitable trade next season or the one after, still helping us through this period of developing our young rucks.
Jamar would be 26/7 yrs & would be in demand at that time for prospective GrandFinalists.

Disagree with that, not everyone on the list has to be there when we are ready for a flag tilt, we'll need Jamar to be around for longer than one more year as our other ruck options are undeveloped (Gawn/Fitzpatrick) or shit (Spencer/Johnson).

 

[SugarHealey]

Disagree with that, not everyone on the list has to be there when we are ready for a flag tilt, we'll need Jamar to be around for longer than one more year as our other ruck options are undeveloped (Gawn/Fitzpatrick) or shit (Spencer/Johnson).

I'm of the opinion that Jamar, will be at the Dees for one to two seasons, hence the one year contract. I don't mind if he stays longer as I'm a Jamar fan.
But we are list building & this will continue.

 

[Bartram_Class]

I'm of the opinion that Jamar, will be at the Dees for one to two seasons, hence the one year contract. I don't mind if he stays longer as I'm a Jamar fan.
But we are list building & this will continue.

The list build is over.

If we don't start rising now, we never will.

 

[Jeebs]

...

Surely contract negotitation is unique to each player. Having a go at Maric when talking Jamar is, imo, a spectacular air ball. Why is it Deans fault btw? Do you know something the rest of us don't?
Re being bent over. Shrug. Only if he performs and if he does then all the better for the MFC. At 93% cap we have room.

The list build is over.

Don't think so.

If we don't start rising now, we never will.

True.

 

[Captain Jack]

The list build is over.

If we don't start rising now, we never will.

No, the list build is not over. Look at all the dead wood we still have kicking around: Newton, Bell, PJ (Bail, Bartram, Miller); and the older guys who won't be there during Flag contention: McDonald, Bruce, Green... that's another 3 years worth of retirements and delistings.
But yes, we do have enough of a list to start rising now, I'd be disappointed if we didn't in 2010.

 

[RandB]

No, the list build is not over. Look at all the dead wood we still have kicking around: Newton, Bell, PJ (Bail, Bartram, Miller); and the older guys who won't be there during Flag contention: McDonald, Bruce, Green... that's another 3 years worth of retirements and delistings.
But yes, we do have enough of a list to start rising now, I'd be disappointed if we didn't in 2010.

I agree with your point although I think BC's point was more pertinent to the players we were relying on ie our best 22 as opposed to the entire list. Even once we have replaced the players you rightly mention we will still fine tune the list year in year out but the majority of the hard work has been done I would have though.

 

[Jeebs]

our best 22

We've tried that before and failed because players got injured, changed clubs, etc. We used 40 players this year, St Kilda was 'best' with 30, the average was 36. 22 is not a list.

 

[Bartram_Class]

We've tried that before and failed because players got injured, changed clubs, etc. We used 40 players this year, St Kilda was 'best' with 30, the average was 36. 22 is not a list.

There are only 6/7 players on our list now that won't be there for Round 1 2012.

We have a list, anything else is fine-tuning or simply having to get rid of a couple every year.

Building a list is not the same as developing one. We have the players at the club now to win a premiership. And I don't mean simply a good 22, I mean a deep 35.

 

[Bartram_Class]

No, the list build is not over. Look at all the dead wood we still have kicking around: Newton, Bell, PJ (Bail, Bartram, Miller); and the older guys who won't be there during Flag contention: McDonald, Bruce, Green... that's another 3 years worth of retirements and delistings.
But yes, we do have enough of a list to start rising now, I'd be disappointed if we didn't in 2010.

By that thinking, we will never ever finish this list build.

When we get rid of this supposed 'dead wood' (Bail has been here 1 year might I remind you), who is to say McNamara, Fitzpatrick, Cheney won't be in the same position you believe Newton, Bell and PJ are now in now?

Ditto, by the time McDonald, Bruce and Green are gone, then Jamar, Moloney and Warnock will be their age, do we have to wait till they are gone too before the build is over?

We don't have to be back in the top 8 before we can say the build is over. The build is over once we have the players at the club that can take our side into that spot, that process I believe was completed this year.

 

[RandB]

Building a list is not the same as developing one. We have the players at the club now to win a premiership. And I don't mean simply a good 22, I mean a deep 35.

Correct.

Also the first part to building a list is making room on it in the first place which the club has actively done for 3 years now. Output = Input.

As you said BC 6/7 players left (some of which are rookies now anyway) is hardly a significant amount to keep us in the rebuilding category. I think some other posters are misconstruing rebuilding for consolidating.

 

[RandB]

We've tried that before and failed because players got injured, changed clubs, etc. We used 40 players this year, St Kilda was 'best' with 30, the average was 36. 22 is not a list.

You miss my point.

I never said that the best 22 was all that we had to worry about, I was simply stating that our best 22 was not overly relyant on players who were coming to the end of their careers - this is a milestone for us and shows that for the first time we are putting our next generation on the park. Obviously we need to get a good spread of talent across the whole squad (consolidate) which the club is doing quite well IMO but that is staing the obvious I would have thought.

Edit: Another thing to consider is that next year even if we do lose a few senior or redundant players not only are most of them inconsequential to our development next year (as BC stated) but also some of them will be replaced by rookies (McKenzie, Spencer, Healey) rather than focusing too much on the draft as TH hinted. So from that pov we already have some of those future additions at our club already - there is no question that we now have the stocks and that the hard work of list management is behind us.

 

[Jeebs]

Shrug. "The list build is over." is quite the definitive statement. IMO incorrect. While "We have the players at the club now" (debatable), who's to say they'll still be there Round 1 2012, or 2014 for that matter.. (traded, delisted, LTI, 3strike, etc) ?

What about the player(s) going to GC & GWS? What about the trading for picks (mandated and other) that will occur specifically with those two teams? How can we ensure we still have quality youth coming through so that we can sustain our success without giving something of acceptable quality back?

What if free agency comes in?

FWIW it's my belief that we are half way in our list building. Clearly you disagree. It'll be interesting in 2-4 years looking at our list vs now.

Edit: eh, the goal posts keep getting shifted. I'll wander off now.

 

[RandB]

Shrug. "The list build is over." is quite the definitive statement. IMO incorrect. While "We have the players at the club now" (debatable), who's to say they'll still be there Round 1 2012, or 2014 for that matter.. (traded, delisted, LTI, 3strike, etc) ?

There is no guarantee as to how things will work out but you have to have them first before you lose them. The reality is that 75% of our squad is going into 2010 under 25 yrs of age - compare this to 2006.

What about the player(s) going to GC & GWS? What about the trading for picks (mandated and other) that will occur specifically with those two teams? How can we ensure we still have quality youth coming through so that we can sustain our success without giving something of acceptable quality back?

What if free agency comes in?

FWIW it's my belief that we are half way in our list building. Clearly you disagree. It'll be interesting in 2-4 years looking at our list vs now..

These are all factors that could hypothetically affect any club, it doesn't change their current status of where their list is at. Even if at MFC we had an even better list, it wouldn't change any of those things you mention.

The best way to judge where our list is at is to consider our next trade/draft period. Consider who will go out and who will come in. It won't be easy because as you said GC will be a factor but we at least know who will probably be on the way out. The reason I say this is because it comes down to where our acquisitions will be placed.

In '07, '08 and '09 we brought in well over 20 kids who have speed, skills and serve a purpose all over the park. That averages over 7 per season. The dynamics of this sort of intake simply won't exist next year, not only because of slim pickings in the draft, not only because of our rookie prospects but most notably because there are no real obvious areas where we need to inject 7 kids apart from say a quality tall KPF if required. We are quite simply at the point where we need to see where we are at with our current squad and then fine tune where required. As of next year, the days of getting 7 kids to simply flood the list and take up the slack of 7 retirees/delistees are over.

I'll wander off now.

Probably for the best, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. The reality is that we have never ever had a complete list that was well developed. Using such a concept as a measuring stick is misguided. What we have done is not only delist the dregs but also replace the better players we have traditionally had which is the essence of rebuilding. We have rebuilt what we once had. I think we all hope that we can consolidate our list better than we have before to cover some of the factors you raised in your previous point.

 

[SugarHealey]

The list build is over.

If we don't start rising now, we never will.

List build doesn't have anything to do with the bottom of the ladder, it's just a kick start if you get the best 2 picks.
every team in the AFL competition is on a perpetual list build & develope.
Its just more radical pruning & adding raw talent if your in the bottom 3rd.
We'll continue to build the list & develope the players, as well as they can progress. As we climb we'll still maintain our recruitment department that'll scour the country for our next batch of kids.

Some more experienced players will fall behind new kids as this process continues & will fall off the list, until finally the collective developed talent & momentum of years of struggle gets us to a grand final.

 

[Jeebs]

All good points RandB. I did/have wandered off but wanted to address below specifically, as IMO it extends on my stance re the list;

There is no guarantee as to how things will work out but you have to have them first before you lose them. The reality is that 75% of our squad is going into 2010 under 25 yrs of age - compare this to 2006.

Even accepting the disclaimer, wrt to my original beef;
With 50-75% of our list yet to prove themselves how on earth can we declare our list built?
Don't get me wrong, the young guys excite me alot (cue troll). Shrug.

 

[Bartram_Class]

I think our differences here appear to be semantic Jeebs.

To me, if the players are on the list, then the list is built, list development is what follows in order to turn us from a wooden spooner to a premier.

Seems you believe that the list is only 'built' at the other end of this development process, when we reach the stage when we are competing for premierships.

I disagree, but I can see that perspective.

 

[RandB]

With 50-75% of our list yet to prove themselves how on earth can we declare our list built?

I guess it is similar to what BC said regarding development.

Nobody is (I hope) under the illusion that the team will be an automatic success or that we have all the stocks we need - a squad isn't finalised before it is developed but that isn't really the point. We simply are at the point where we have shed the old skin - a process that Richmond have only just started now. I suppose a rebuilding phase to me is where there are copious senior players due for retirement or list cloggers and the team is actively seeking talent to directly replace them - a genuine transitional period. There are no guarantees how well they will do it but you have to get them on the park first. More of our kids are filling spots traditionally held by the better players so if you work backwards from those positions then the latter positions are not as important but we already have the stocks to fill them anyway.

The essence of building a list is accumulating the talent that you beleive will take you forward, from that pov there aren't too many players with question marks atm simply because they haven't been given a chance - this doesn't mean however that we haven't built it. There are a couple such as Newton and Meesen that the club seems sure about though who will probably be replaced but apart from that it is going to be sit back and watch time. I understand what you are saying though so semantics is the keyword as BC said.