John Longmire and the 90s - What-if?

[3051]

Longmire was the youngest ever Coleman medalist in 1990, booting 98 goals asa 19-year-old. Whilst he doesn't reach those heights again, his career up until the end of 1995 yields 494 goals from 155 games, an average of 3.2 goals/game. He and Carey form a lethal forward partnership - the closest modern day comparison would be Franklin and Roughhead for Hawthorn. At the end of 1995, Longmire is still just 24 (turning 25 in December). Again for reference, Larkey is already 25.

Then tragedy strikes, and Longmire sustains a season-ending knee injury before the 96 season and subsequently misses out on the premiership. He returns in 97 but plays out his career in the backline and in ruck.

I was a bit too young to watch Longmire play and the intricacies of the 90s team so have some questions:

• If Longmire never got injured, would North have been even more dominant from 96 onwards?
• Does Carey reach his absolute peak whilst sharing the goal kicking with Longmire?

Some other random thoughts:

• Pagan did one heck of a job to rejig North's gameplan and team in 96 losing such a key player before the season. I guess having the GOAT on your team helps somewhat.
• Statistically, North didn't skip a beat - ranking #1 in total points in 96, 98, and 99. With Longmire, they were #1 in 93, and #2 in 94. Massive firepower with and without. Again, not sure having that GOAT lurking in the forward line had something to do with that...

 

[Grogg]

They complemented each other beautifully, imo.

Longmire before his knee was deceptively quick and agile, but after the knee he never regained either attribute. Having said that, he was still a very effective forward who's guile and bodywork came more to the fore. He still remained an effective deep forward who was very much a lead at the ball from the square type.

Carey was a guy that could play basically anywhere. His amazing aerobic capacity and agility allowed him to get way up the ground, but still have the speed and determination to be an aerial threat forward. Early in his career his specialty was going back with the flight and smashing packs, more often than not taking the mark. He blew opponents up physically and mentally. He was agile,quick with equisite skills off both sides of his body. A true freak. After his multiple shoulder ops, he was never as good aerially, but still one of the best going around.

So a perfect combo for the times; the deep forward and the prototype roaming CHF..The open forward line with two genuine guns with ample room to strut their stuff.

If either of those guys had remained serious injury free, they would have been the undisputed greatest duo in the history of the game. No question.

 

[Ruckle]

I think the emergence of McKernan probably mitigated the loss and subsequent lesser forward presence on return of Longmire somewhat.

Great memories though, Horse still my all time favourite, he was absolute freak, still managed to look somewhat unko at times whilst doing things that were decidedly not unko.

What he did as a 19 year old in an age when full backs were able to belt and scrag (but admittedly forward lines were more open) was and is one of my favourite football memories.

 

[Fruity33]

Longmire was great to watch, and I was privileged to witness his 14.2 (not 100% on the behinds) against Melbourne in 1990 at the G.

 

[DEVO]

My favourite player from the 90's, I was so happy to see him win a Premiership medal in 1999.

He actually did his knee the first time in the final game of 1993 against the Dogs, and in the final few minutes of the match too IIRC. He was a massive loss going into our first final series since '87, especially with Carey doing his hamstring (I think) in the first quarter of the Elimination Final.

That 1993 forward line of Longmire, Carey, McAdam, Roberts and Allison was the most dynamic forward line I have ever seen, they were unstoppable when they got on a role, and the team was so efficient with ball in hand (averaged a goal every 15possessions) that they must have scared the crap out opposition coaches. There were instances where they would pile on 4 or 5 goals in three breathtaking three minutes but only have 20 possessions. Aussie Rules football has ever looked as exciting as the Joeys of 1993, and I doubt it will ever again.

Johnny Longmire at his best was a great full forward in an era of legendary full forwards like Lockett and Dunstall and while he could never compete with them, he still could have finished with 800+ goals and average of over 3.5 a game if it wasn't for his knee injuries curtailing his mobilty.

 

[King Corey]

I think in 1996 the team had reached a critical mass of talent and experience that we were likely to prevail with our without Longmire.

Iirc Longmire was in extremely good form preseason (back when the scratch matches actually gave some realistic indication). Think he kicked 5 in multiple meaningful intraclubs. So you'd project that he was set for a big 1996.

However as you say 3051 Pagan did one hell of a job rejigging things and you could mount an argument that it made us even more dangerous.

What was crazy was how many tall marking forwards were on our list at that time, all of whom either produced football that shaped our season or at least bobbed up with cameos:

Crocker
Sholl
Roberts
McKernan
Carey
Daniltchenko
Lissenden

I'm probably missing a couple too.

 

[Only Forwards]

That 1993 forward line of Longmire, Carey, McAdam, Roberts and Allison was the most dynamic forward line I have ever seen, they were unstoppable when they got on a role, and the team was so efficient with ball in hand (averaged a goal every 15possessions) that they must have scared the crap out opposition coaches. There were instances where they would pile on 4 or 5 goals in three breathtaking three minutes but only have 20 possessions. Aussie Rules football has ever looked as exciting as the Joeys of 1993, and I doubt it will ever again.

Longmire, McAdam and Carey all kicked 60+ that year. Which is exceptionally rare.

 

[Kanga Glory]

The days when going to the footy bought happiness . We need these days again

 

[3051]

He actually did his knee the first time in the final game of 1993 against the Dogs, and in the final few minutes of the match too IIRC. He was a massive loss going into our first final series since '87, especially with Carey doing his hamstring (I think) in the first quarter of the Elimination Final.

That 1993 forward line of Longmire, Carey, McAdam, Roberts and Allison was the most dynamic forward line I have ever seen, they were unstoppable when they got on a role, and the team was so efficient with ball in hand (averaged a goal every 15possessions) that they must have scared the crap out opposition coaches. There were instances where they would pile on 4 or 5 goals in three breathtaking three minutes but only have 20 possessions. Aussie Rules football has ever looked as exciting as the Joeys of 1993, and I doubt it will ever again.

Didn't know that about the 93 side - North basically lost two of its best forwards by the first quarter of the Elimination Final. That's a lot of badluck.

Johnny Longmire at his best was a great full forward in an era of legendary full forwards like Lockett and Dunstall and while he could never compete with them, he still could have finished with 800+ goals and average of over 3.5 a game if it wasn't for his knee injuries curtailing his mobilty.

That's basically a Matthew Lloyd type career whilst sharing the forward line with the GOAT CHF who would also finish up with 700+ goals.

 

[3051]

Iirc Longmire was in extremely good form preseason (back when the scratch matches actually gave some realistic indication). Think he kicked 5 in multiple meaningful intraclubs. So you'd project that he was set for a big 1996.

Wow that would have been an even bigger blow at the time. Longmire seemed to have a down year in 1995 by his standards. I wonder if he came into 1996 extra motivated?

 

[DEVO]

Longmire, McAdam and Carey all kicked 60+ that year. Which is exceptionally rare.

Only time it's ever happened, and 1993 was a 22-round season with 2 byes so it was achieved in only 20 games. Also Mark Roberts finished the season with 47.

 

[DEVO]

I think in 1996 the team had reached a critical mass of talent and experience that we were likely to prevail with our without Longmire.

Iirc Longmire was in extremely good form preseason (back when the scratch matches actually gave some realistic indication). Think he kicked 5 in multiple meaningful intraclubs. So you'd project that he was set for a big 1996.

On election day 1996 North played Sydney in Canberra and kicked 22.18, I think Longmire may have kicked 6 or 7 that day. I'm pretty sure Micky Martyn kicked two on Tony Lockett as well, including one where took possession in our defensive 50 and ran down the wing with Lockett chasing him before converting from about 45 out. Lockett was getting a fair bit of abuse jogging back, including from me, and then kicked about 6 or 7 himself in the second half, almost stealing the game for the Swans. It may have been Lockett's first official game in a Swannies uniform.

 

[DEVO]

Wow that would have been an even bigger blow at the time. Longmire seemed to have a down year in 1995 by his standards. I wonder if he came into 1996 extra motivated?

He missed a few games in 1995, also our game style had evolved, we had 14 players kick double figure goals that season, so we weren't as reliant on Longmire and Carey, but they were still our primary targets.

 

[wolvesRoos]

35 was on my back through the glory years of the 90s. So disappointed he didn't get the 100 in his final game Coleman year. Doesn't hurt so much now as winners don't get near it

 

[SonofSamsquanch]

My favourite player from the 90's, I was so happy to see him win a Premiership medal in 1999.

He actually did his knee the first time in the final game of 1993 against the Dogs, and in the final few minutes of the match too IIRC. He was a massive loss going into our first final series since '87, especially with Carey doing his hamstring (I think) in the first quarter of the Elimination Final.

That 1993 forward line of Longmire, Carey, McAdam, Roberts and Allison was the most dynamic forward line I have ever seen, they were unstoppable when they got on a role, and the team was so efficient with ball in hand (averaged a goal every 15possessions) that they must have scared the crap out opposition coaches. There were instances where they would pile on 4 or 5 goals in three breathtaking three minutes but only have 20 possessions. Aussie Rules football has ever looked as exciting as the Joeys of 1993, and I doubt it will ever again.

Johnny Longmire at his best was a great full forward in an era of legendary full forwards like Lockett and Dunstall and while he could never compete with them, he still could have finished with 800+ goals and average of over 3.5 a game if it wasn't for his knee injuries curtailing his mobilty.

The great McCarthy wants a look in somewhere here DEVO.

Seriosly though, what a time to be watching footy. Especially after the lean years from the late 80s into the early 90s.

 

[3051]

On election day 1996 North played Sydney in Canberra and kicked 22.18, I think Longmire may have kicked 6 or 7 that day. I'm pretty sure Micky Martyn kicked two on Tony Lockett as well, including one where took possession in our defensive 50 and ran down the wing with Lockett chasing him before converting from about 45 out. Lockett was getting a fair bit of abuse jogging back, including from me, and then kicked about 6 or 7 himself in the second half, almost stealing the game for the Swans. It may have been Lockett's first official game in a Swannies uniform.

That sounded like the greatest goal of all time lol. Anyone have footage of this?

 

[King Corey]

On election day 1996 North played Sydney in Canberra and kicked 22.18, I think Longmire may have kicked 6 or 7 that day. I'm pretty sure Micky Martyn kicked two on Tony Lockett as well, including one where took possession in our defensive 50 and ran down the wing with Lockett chasing him before converting from about 45 out. Lockett was getting a fair bit of abuse jogging back, including from me, and then kicked about 6 or 7 himself in the second half, almost stealing the game for the Swans. It may have been Lockett's first official game in a Swannies uniform.

Cheers that makes sense. I had a memory of Longmire playing well against real opponents but couldn't place it.

Off the top of my head I think his build up was:

Intraclub playing on Martyn and Carey (yes Carey): 5 goals
Preseason vs Sydney: 5 goals
Preseason vs Brisbane: 5 goals
Then injured

Probably off the money but he was in really good touch.

Not that it means much but for some reason have this recall of Longmire and Carey being particularly tanned and built that preseason (calendar sales likes this), just looking like absolute warriors.

 

[SonofSamsquanch]

have this recall of Longmire and Carey being particularly tanned and built that preseason

NTTAWWT

 

[Sphynx]

Didn't know that about the 93 side - North basically lost two of its best forwards by the first quarter of the Elimination Final. That's a lot of badluck.


That's basically a Matthew Lloyd type career whilst sharing the forward line with the GOAT CHF who would also finish up with 700+ goals.

It was a calf for Carey and we didn’t lose him.

He put in probably the best individual game in history after doing it.

 

[King Corey]

Wow that would have been an even bigger blow at the time. Longmire seemed to have a down year in 1995 by his standards. I wonder if he came into 1996 extra motivated?

Interesting you say that. I was still just getting into it in 1995 and lack perspective and having high expectations, was hot and cold on what I thought about Horse obviously in contrast to Carey and am emerging McKernan.

Watching it back now he was still a very good player in 1995. If we were compare him to Larkey - his marking and bodywork were stronger and he was a very physical presence despite not being an inherently physical player, just by his sheer size and momentum.

He was also obviously a very smart player in working in alongside other forwards and evidently in becoming an excellent coach.

 

[DEVO]

It was a calf for Carey and we didn’t lose him.

He put in probably the best individual game in history after doing it.

That was 1994 wasn't it? I seem to remember him playing one of the greatest games ever in the prelim against Geelong, with a sore calf, but it wasn't enough to get us over the line because the umpire conspired against us big time that day.

 

[DEVO]

The great McCarthy wants a look in somewhere here DEVO.

Seriosly though, what a time to be watching footy. Especially after the lean years from the late 80s into the early 90s.

McCarthy left for Fitzroy at the end of 1992.

Bring in Pagan was a masterstroke, he coached half the players (at least) in U19's, knew them inside out and was able to get the best out them from the start. Even though we didn't win the flag, it is still my favourite season to go back and watch during the off season.

 

[Ruckle]

That was 1994 wasn't it? I seem to remember him playing one of the greatest games ever in the prelim against Geelong, with a sore calf, but it wasn't enough to get us over the line because the umpire conspired against big time that day.

Yep dont think anyone played a greatest game ever in the 93 final.

 

[jimandphilbadge]

Self quoting from an old thread because I'm an egotistical moron, I've got him in our top 5 players since 1990.

Longmire - Averaged 77 goals a season (not a typo) from 1990 to the end of 1995 - all before he his 25 birthday and all while sharing a forward line with Carey and a bunch of other stars. That injury robbed him of agility but a true team player who adapted to other roles in the late 90s. Put Gary Hocking to shame in the shower at a State of Origin match. Serious gun who's career before injury is criminally overlooked.

As a few others have posted here Carey and Longmire worked well as a tandem. What gets overlooked in that era as we only see short highlights now is how selfless a lot of that team was. Carey used to spend extended periods up the ground and Longmire was very adaptable too. They certainly didn't get in each other's way.

Would we have been more dominant? Difficult to say, but we had such a loaded team and smart coach back then we could adapt.
Would Carey have reached his peak with him in the team? Yep. I'd argue 93-95 were up there with 96 and 98 in terms of peak Duck.

He was a beautifully straight kick from goal from any angle (except for the 2.8 + 2 out on the full in Round 22 1990....a part of me is still sitting in the forward pocket of VFL Park waiting to jump the fence when he got to 100). He was tough - set a few shepards back in the day he's opponents are still feeling on cold mornings.

Few other bits - 93 Final: Wasn't Carey coming in with a questionable hamstring which he pulled late on the game when it was pretty much over? That said, we peaked a month too early and West Coast accounted for us pretty easily.
95 season - it's 30 years ago, but it seemed we had a few guys who didn't quote click that year? North had a good team and on their day were difficult to beat, but also had some frustrating losses

 

[jimandphilbadge]

That was 1994 wasn't it? I seem to remember him playing one of the greatest games ever in the prelim against Geelong, with a sore calf, but it wasn't enough to get us over the line because the umpire conspired against us big time that day.

Correct. Best game I've seen, worst umpries I've seen.