List Mgmt. Josh Jenkins

[hippyhippy]

Jenkins doing ok cause the crows have a plethora of options up forward.. however he did do ok when tex went down. If you're looking for a ruck jenkins is not your man.

 

[Gone Critical]

My comment was in general because it happens every year. Freeman, Beams, Thomas and Wellingham are guys that we wanted to keep, but left in consecutive years.

Given that all 3 are uncontracted and will receive contract offers my guess would be that it'll come from Witts and Toovey if they spend the year at VFL level and I'd have Broomhead 50/50 at this stage regardless of opportunity.

Those 4 are a mixed bag. The latter 3 all were management problems to a degree. I was told by someone who is at the club a lot at the time no one was sad to lose Daisy, he was talking coaching and admin wise.

Of the 3 you have mentioned Toovey would struggle to get a contract elsewhere if spends the year in the VFL, Witts would also have lost currency if he cant find a place in the 22 this year. Broomhead more interesting. Big year for him, he needs to be establishing in the 22 come years end, if he does I think he will stay, if he doesn't agree he may seek a trade but also wouldn't have much currency

 

[Gone Critical]

At first I thought it sounded a reasonable idea but didnt realise Jenkins is 27 already. Career wise 2015 was his best season and he was stats wise pretty equivalent to Cloke's 2015 which we considered very sub par for Cloke. Jenkins is a poor manS Cloke and only 2 years younger. On that basis I would say a clear no for chasing him. Cloke, Moore and Jenkins wont be the way forward, our no 3 needs to be younger with scope for a career after Cloke is gone. Jenkins wont be that player.

 

[Ketchup]

Those 4 are a mixed bag. The latter 3 all were management problems to a degree. I was told by someone who is at the club a lot at the time no one was sad to lose Daisy, he was talking coaching and admin wise.

Of the 3 you have mentioned Toovey would struggle to get a contract elsewhere if spends the year in the VFL, Witts would also have lost currency if he cant find a place in the 22 this year. Broomhead more interesting. Big year for him, he needs to be establishing in the 22 come years end, if he does I think he will stay, if he doesn't agree he may seek a trade but also wouldn't have much currency

It's hard for Broomhead to establish himself when he keeps get failed by our medical department. I'd be questioning the professionalism of that part of our club if I were him.

At the same point, I don't know Broomhead personally but I can't imagine he'd be one too keen on changing clubs given his introverted character. But his footy has to come first, and we have failed him in that part imo.

 

[Scodog10]

Those 4 are a mixed bag. The latter 3 all were management problems to a degree. I was told by someone who is at the club a lot at the time no one was sad to lose Daisy, he was talking coaching and admin wise.

Of the 3 you have mentioned Toovey would struggle to get a contract elsewhere if spends the year in the VFL, Witts would also have lost currency if he cant find a place in the 22 this year. Broomhead more interesting. Big year for him, he needs to be establishing in the 22 come years end, if he does I think he will stay, if he doesn't agree he may seek a trade but also wouldn't have much currency

You could well be right about all of that. I just noted that "required" players walk out of every club each year and in a general sense it may be peaches and cream for many on the list, but Collingwood isn't a seamlessly run organisation that is immune to employees choosing to depart. Even the very best lose some along the way for one reason or another!

For all we know the other watch this space one could be Cloke. I can't help thinking that a fresh start could do him some good and you put him in the Bulldogs this year then they're flag favourites given how they play, IMO. Obviously I'm just spitballing, but at this point in 2014 Beams leaving wasn't even on the radar so who knows we might move Cloke to find space for say Hurley and then use the trade currency at the draft to go tall.

 

[pablo disco bar]

My comment was in general because it happens every year. Freeman, Beams, Thomas and Wellingham are guys that we wanted to keep, but left in consecutive years.

Given that all 3 are uncontracted and will receive contract offers my guess would be that it'll come from Witts and Toovey if they spend the year at VFL level and I'd have Broomhead 50/50 at this stage regardless of opportunity.

Wouldn't be surprised by broomhead or even fasolo getting a big offer

 

[Gone Critical]

It's hard for Broomhead to establish himself when he keeps get failed by our medical department. I'd be questioning the professionalism of that part of our club if I were him.

At the same point, I don't know Broomhead personally but I can't imagine he'd be one too keen on changing clubs given his introverted character. But his footy has to come first, and we have failed him in that part imo.

I have laboured this point previously but of course there is no way you or I can assess whether Broomhead has been failed by our medical dept. That doesnt stop this being a popular story.

 

[Gone Critical]

You could well be right about all of that. I just noted that "required" players walk out of every club each year and in a general sense it may be peaches and cream for many on the list, but Collingwood isn't a seamlessly run organisation that is immune to employees choosing to depart. Even the very best lose some along the way for one reason or another!

For all we know the other watch this space one could be Cloke. I can't help thinking that a fresh start could do him some good and you put him in the Bulldogs this year then they're flag favourites given how they play, IMO. Obviously I'm just spitballing, but at this point in 2014 Beams leaving wasn't even on the radar so who knows we might move Cloke to find space for say Hurley and then use the trade currency at the draft to go tall.

Agree that could become a senario. I am still looking for Cloke to have a 50 goal season this year but wouldn't be adverse to losing him if we landed Hurley.

 

[Scodog10]

Agree that could become a senario. I am still looking for Cloke to have a 50 goal season this year but wouldn't be adverse to losing him if we landed Hurley.

I'd be more leaning towards hoping for it than looking for it. Given his conversion rate I don't think we can give him enough opportunity and I doubt he can turn his conversion around.

His situation is a tough one overall and I'm keen to see how we handle it because the likes of Jenkins or Patton are going to be hard to dislodge.

 

[Gone Critical]

I'd be more leaning towards hoping for it than looking for it. Given his conversion rate I don't think we can give him enough opportunity and I doubt he can turn his conversion around.

His situation is a tough one overall and I'm keen to see how we handle it because the likes of Jenkins or Patton are going to be hard to dislodge.

Still Cloke is a clearly better player than Jenkins. Not on his last 2 games but even in 2015, when he struggled, he matched Jenkins best ever output.

 

[Ketchup]

I have laboured this point previously but of course there is no way you or I can assess whether Broomhead has been failed by our medical dept. That doesnt stop this being a popular story.

Of course there's no real physical evidence at hand but I think it's quite clear in recent times there has been two obvious failings in Broomhead's treatment and assessment. Last year in Adelaide against Port when he originally injured his shoulder but was apparently fit to continue which resulted in him missing extended periods of football with serious damage. Further on that point if you believe drafted hawk and his dealing's with Broomhead like many do, the lack of urgency and how long it took to undertake scans that weekend was a disaster.

And secondly in a pre season game this year when he hurt the same shoulder, in a insignificant game he was sent back on the ground and has now undertaken another lengthy wait on the sidelines. Why you would risk such a situation in a NAB game is bizarre on a medical point and even a coaching point.

Now of course you could believe both these cases to be coincidence, but I'm taking the line of a lack of knowledge and understanding from our medical staff to correctly review and assess the situation. Happen once, maybe, but twice, to the same player is unacceptable for mine.

 

[Bard]

Of course there's no real physical evidence at hand but I think it's quite clear in recent times there has been two obvious failings in Broomhead's treatment and assessment. Last year in Adelaide against Port when he originally injured his shoulder but was apparently fit to continue which resulted in him missing extended periods of football with serious damage. Further on that point if you believe drafted hawk and his dealing's with Broomhead like many do, the lack of urgency and how long it took to undertake scans that weekend was a disaster.

And secondly in a pre season game this year when he hurt the same shoulder, in a insignificant game he was sent back on the ground and has now undertaken another lengthy wait on the sidelines. Why you would risk such a situation in a NAB game is bizarre on a medical point and even a coaching point.

Now of course you could believe both these cases to be coincidence, but I'm taking the line of a lack of knowledge and understanding from our medical staff to correctly review and assess the situation. Happen once, maybe, but twice, to the same player is unacceptable for mine.

Considering his own dietary misgivings related to bettering himself as an athlete which he's admitted to it's hard to fully accept he's without any kind of blame in these situations. What's to say he didn't lie to medical staff about pain or discomfort in his shoulder to retake the field? Didn't do rehab properly? I don't think we have amazing medicos but the amount of variables being conveniently ignored whenever this discussion arises is beyond stupid. None of us are equipped with enough information to accurately assess this.

 

[jackcass]

Next target after that should be someone like Krakouer.

Do we really need to add an old AFL discard with a body that's passed it's used by date? We could have just kept Krak if that's what we were after.

 

[jackcass]

It's hard for Broomhead to establish himself when he keeps get failed by our medical department. I'd be questioning the professionalism of that part of our club if I were him.

At the same point, I don't know Broomhead personally but I can't imagine he'd be one too keen on changing clubs given his introverted character. But his footy has to come first, and we have failed him in that part imo.

Not sure Broomy is a good example of alleged failings in our medical room with most of his injuries occurring as a result of collisions while playing.

 

[Scodog10]

Considering his own dietary misgivings related to bettering himself as an athlete which he's admitted to it's hard to fully accept he's without any kind of blame in these situations. What's to say he didn't lie to medical staff about pain or discomfort in his shoulder to retake the field? Didn't do rehab properly? I don't think we have amazing medicos but the amount of variables being conveniently ignored whenever this discussion arises is beyond stupid. None of us are equipped with enough information to accurately assess this.

In this instance I think it's preposterous to think that a footballer would lie about pain levels in a NAB game in order to get back out on the field or to question whether Broomhead didn't apply himself to his rehab...

 

[jackcass]

Of course there's no real physical evidence at hand but I think it's quite clear in recent times there has been two obvious failings in Broomhead's treatment and assessment. Last year in Adelaide against Port when he originally injured his shoulder but was apparently fit to continue which resulted in him missing extended periods of football with serious damage. Further on that point if you believe drafted hawk and his dealing's with Broomhead like many do, the lack of urgency and how long it took to undertake scans that weekend was a disaster.

And secondly in a pre season game this year when he hurt the same shoulder, in a insignificant game he was sent back on the ground and has now undertaken another lengthy wait on the sidelines. Why you would risk such a situation in a NAB game is bizarre on a medical point and even a coaching point.

Now of course you could believe both these cases to be coincidence, but I'm taking the line of a lack of knowledge and understanding from our medical staff to correctly review and assess the situation. Happen once, maybe, but twice, to the same player is unacceptable for mine.

But without firsthand access to that assessment process that's pure guess work. Assessment while a player is still warm can easily mask the extent of injuries that are fully assessed once a player has cooled down. An ultra conservative approach to these types of injuries on the bench and most sides would finish games without rotations left on the pine.

 

[Bard]

In this instance I think it's preposterous to think that a footballer would lie about pain levels in a NAB game in order to get back out on the field or to question whether Broomhead didn't apply himself to his rehab...

I didn't say I thought that but that it's a possibility. Although I agree it would be a silly thing to do in a NAB game but not so much the game last season. My point is there are many other variables and many other personnel who could be the cause (maybe it's related to training methods?).

 

[jackcass]

In this instance I think it's preposterous to think that a footballer would lie about pain levels in a NAB game in order to get back out on the field or to question whether Broomhead didn't apply himself to his rehab...

Lie might be a bit strong but medicos would rely on feedback during their assessment to decide if a player should re-take the field. Unless you're proposing that the assessment identified issues which were deliberately ignored by the medicos and the coaching staff and an injured player was made to re-take the field. There was some discussion a couple of years ago about making scanning machines available at grounds but that clearly isn't practical so I'm not sure what the alternatives are.

 

[jackcass]

On the OP, not sure Jenkins offers more than our current crop of potential 3rd talls other than maturity.

 

[PieBeast]

Unless they are in severe pain just about any player will say "I'm fine" but at the end of the day it's up to the medical department to make the right call.

And in Broommy's case this clearly hasn't happened.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I don't think he wants to leave honestly.

Outside his recent purple patch (which includes most of 2015), I've never been an overly huge fan of his. Always came across as a bit of a stooge playing well above his capabilities in bursts. Maybe he looks better now because he has so much superior talent around him mkaing him look better since he doesn't get a decent defender each week?

I don't watch Adelaide enough to really judge properly. Given his age, I don't think he'd be a prudent target.

Given Moore and Cox with Keefe back next year, I don't think we should bother trying to recruit "the next Leigh Brown" anymore. Keefe can play that role in my opinion (maybe not overly well, but service-ably) and hopefully Cox can make it. That's enough.

Our next target should really be a young key defender now. Reid is fragile and with both he and Brown at 26, we need to be looking at a succession plan because Frost is a deplorable footballer.

 

[Ketchup]

Not sure Broomy is a good example of alleged failings in our medical room with most of his injuries occurring as a result of collisions while playing.

Absolutely agree, it's nothing from a conditioning standpoint, and of course his diet isn't helping like Bard has mentioned, but there's highly paid nutritionist who's job is to make sure he fulfils his needs required for the standard of AFL football.

But without firsthand access to that assessment process that's pure guess work. Assessment while a player is still warm can easily mask the extent of injuries that are fully assessed once a player has cooled down. An ultra conservative approach to these types of injuries on the bench and most sides would finish games without rotations left on the pine.

It can, that's why I can see a little in the Port game why he was sent back out if Broomhead felt fit. But for it to happen in the NAB is just amateur, even if he said he's fine the coaches should have stopped him, we had extended bench, and they're just as liable in mismanagement in this instance.

My issues with our medical and rehab staff is that they have an inability to get players back on the Park, this extends more than just Broomhead. Elliot this year, Ramsay last year are clear examples of struggling to monitor loads of chronic injuries instead in both cases they went into they broke. Broomhead's shoulder is a continuing issue, Freeman's hamstring although he has himself to blame somewhat is something the club couldn't get right in two years, Reid although has a dodgy body, players like him can be overcome, just look at Higgins and Waite at North Melbourne, the club has history in failing in this department, and has done for years.

For mine I think the club needs to do more structured individualised programming, and if that's what they are doing, they're doing a shitty job.

 

[Gone Critical]

Of course there's no real physical evidence at hand but I think it's quite clear in recent times there has been two obvious failings in Broomhead's treatment and assessment. Last year in Adelaide against Port when he originally injured his shoulder but was apparently fit to continue which resulted in him missing extended periods of football with serious damage. Further on that point if you believe drafted hawk and his dealing's with Broomhead like many do, the lack of urgency and how long it took to undertake scans that weekend was a disaster.

And secondly in a pre season game this year when he hurt the same shoulder, in a insignificant game he was sent back on the ground and has now undertaken another lengthy wait on the sidelines. Why you would risk such a situation in a NAB game is bizarre on a medical point and even a coaching point.

Now of course you could believe both these cases to be coincidence, but I'm taking the line of a lack of knowledge and understanding from our medical staff to correctly review and assess the situation. Happen once, maybe, but twice, to the same player is unacceptable for mine.

Again I would say without more info we are all just guessing. With the info available though I think you are putting the cart before the horse. There was an article in the current Collingwood magazine on Broomhead and in it it explains the Adelaide injury. He hurt his arm shoulder, played on and stayed on in Adelaide. The pain he had in the upper arm/shoulder didn't subside and he subsequently had a scan that showed a break in his humerus. I would put a couple of qualifying points in here. When they say scan that would mean not a traditional XR that will show significant breaks in a bone that would be much more obvious. It's likely it was a crack in the bone , undisplaced.

In this day and age , with professional athletes, we will pick up much lesser breaks or fractures in a bone, even just cracks, using a scan. Something that a traditional XR would struggle to detect. Such injuries are also difficult to differentiate from muscle, tendon or ligaments damage just on clinical signs that the medical/physio staff would use for their game day assessments. In this setting sending Broomhead back onto the field would be perfectly understandable. If he could manage the pain he had there was no other sign the medicos would have had to keep him on the sidelines. As someone mentioned above players go back on the field all the time in similar situations.

2nd and probably the most important point is that going back on the ground is very unlikely to have made the injury any worse or kept him out of football any longer. The bone wasn't displaced, it became a matter of giving it time to heal which from the time the injury occurred was always likely to be an extended time. Bones take time to heal.

So , as is not uncommon when people look to explain illnesses or injuries, you have probably lept to an incorrect conclusion here. Putting him back on the field didnt lead to him "missing extended periods of football with serious damage". The initial injury was what caused that.

As to his more recent injury I have no knowledge of any specifics so really cant comment. I think that probably applies for us all. My call on the first injury is still a best guess only but I do have a medical background to call on.

 

[Scodog10]

Lie might be a bit strong but medicos would rely on feedback during their assessment to decide if a player should re-take the field. Unless you're proposing that the assessment identified issues which were deliberately ignored by the medicos and the coaching staff and an injured player was made to re-take the field. There was some discussion a couple of years ago about making scanning machines available at grounds but that clearly isn't practical so I'm not sure what the alternatives are.

As I said I find it preposterous to discuss whether Broomhead wanted to go back on the ground in that NAB match. I get that the discussion around it could potentially be worthy, but we couldn't find a worse case study if we tried given that the exact same thing had happened in the previous competitive match he played in.

 

[DAWESOME!!]

As I said I find it preposterous to discuss whether Broomhead wanted to go back on the ground in that NAB match. I get that the discussion around it could potentially be worthy, but we couldn't find a worse case study if we tried given that the exact same thing had happened in the previous competitive match he played in.

Not sure I understand why you think it's a preposterous case to discuss?