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Rumour JUH

  • Thread starter Thread starter freo1
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Unless I misinterpreted the post I responded to, I'm not agreeing with it at all.
The original post inferred that Jamarra didnt get sanctioned because he was indigenous ("the indigenous card"). You and others took offence to that, and then in your post above you said that race "absolutely can be a factor in how punishments, penalties and/or deterrents are approached".
 
The original post inferred that Jamarra didnt get sanctioned because he was indigenous ("the indigenous card"). You and others took offence to that, and then in your post above you said that race "absolutely can be a factor in how punishments, penalties and/or deterrents are approached".
It can be. But that doesn't mean it's illegitimate.
 
Don’t underestimate the finagling by the AFL behind the scenes. The Bulldogs gave Jamarra every chance, every form of assistance, every leeway, yet were not allowed to sanction him in any way, and it was never made clear - to us fans - why that was.

The whole year was a big secret. I don’t even know if the other players knew what was going on.

A couple of ITKs claimed to know more but it’s still a mystery.

It’s not a mystery at all. He went off the rails, claimed it was caused by workplace mental stress, the AFL were too scared to allow him to be terminated and the Dogs then traded him under contract at a low price to the Suns. There’s no mystery, it’s all out in the open.
 
Bad luck for the Dogs but it is it what it is..these things happen in life. Win some lose some..Dogs end up with Sam Darcy so can't feel too aggrieved.

Similar tale to Jesse Hogan at the Dockers.

The good news is he's not in jail or dead.
So really this is a win.

I see it in the same way as Hogan and hopefully a feel good story.
 

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Bad luck for the Dogs but it is it what it is..these things happen in life. Win some lose some..Dogs end up with Sam Darcy so can't feel too aggrieved.

Similar tale to Jesse Hogan at the Dockers.

The good news is he's not in jail or dead.
So really this is a win.

I see it in the same way as Hogan and hopefully a feel good story.
I see it as a weak selfish person that let down his teammates.
 
Its actually very similar to the Jesse Hogan exit from Freo. Cost a lot, provided nothing, traded for a bag of chips...
Now he's almost the premier big key forward in the comp. It hurts.
Every time one of the arseh*le commentators says “ what a great story “ it’s like getting kicked in the nuts , just once could one of them add a little “ unless you’re a Freo fan “
 
It’s not a mystery at all. He went off the rails, claimed it was caused by workplace mental stress, the AFL were too scared to allow him to be terminated and the Dogs then traded him under contract at a low price to the Suns. There’s no mystery, it’s all out in the open.
Therein your own post lies the mystery - it's a mystery why the AFL were too scared.
 
Therein your own post lies the mystery - it's a mystery why the AFL were too scared.

Most businesses would be very cautious about terminating an employee on leave due to work related mental health issues. It’s straight up against the law. When you’re certain to end up in court, you tend to tread carefully.
 
Most businesses would be very cautious about terminating an employee on leave due to work related mental health issues. It’s straight up against the law. When you’re certain to end up in court, you tend to tread carefully.
Sure, but if a company provides and pays for mental health care that is reasonable in the circumstances and the employee doesn't engage in it in good faith, they would be less cautious in terminating that employee.
 

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Therein your own post lies the mystery - it's a mystery why the AFL were too scared.
Firing someone who is on mental health leave caused by workplace stress (or claimed to be at least) is a very tricky thing for even a normal business, let alone one like the AFL that has legitimate concerns about whether their employment contracts would stand up in court if ever tested.

AFL will go to great lengths to avoid those contracts ever being tested for enforceability.
 
It’s straight up against the law.
Not quite, it is against the law to fire them for being on mental health leave, not to fire them for gross incompetence (just for example) when they happen to be on mental health leave.
 
Firing someone who is on mental health leave caused by workplace stress (or claimed to be at least) is a very tricky thing for even a normal business, let alone one like the AFL that has legitimate concerns about whether their employment contracts would stand up in court if ever tested.

AFL will go to great lengths to avoid those contracts ever being tested for enforceability.
I get that, but the AFL is in far more of a position than most employers given the fact that they have specialist club and league psychs, and have dealt with similar issues before. They were providing JUH with far more specialist treatment early in the year than most employees get, and the rumours were that he wasn't fulfilling his obligation with his mental health rehab, and the solution was to find a compromise (JUH selected the rehab clinic that he wanted to go to in Queensland).
 
I get that, but the AFL is in far more of a position than most employers given the fact that they have specialist club and league psychs, and have dealt with similar issues before. They were providing JUH with far more specialist treatment early in the year than most employees get, and the rumours were that he wasn't fulfilling his obligation with his mental health rehab, and the solution was to find a compromise (JUH selected the rehab clinic that he wanted to go to in Queensland).
That depends on how accomodating the employee is though.

If they refuse any compromise and say "I'm not going to play until I get to a different club and if you fire me I will sue you for unfair dismissal" and the main thing the business is trying to avoid is the employment contract being examined in court then they may well not want to risk it.
 
That depends on how accomodating the employee is though.

If they refuse any compromise and say "I'm not going to play until I get to a different club and if you fire me I will sue you for unfair dismissal" and the main thing the business is trying to avoid is the employment contract being examined in court then they may well not want to risk it.
I would have hoped that the AFL is in the position to protect its unique interest in competitive balance in court though. It does things like have a salary cap, national draft, lack of free agency before 8 years which are all forms of restraint on trade in an employment contract sense in court, but the AFL is confident and should be able to defend it because of its unique interest in competitive balance that allows for the players to earn more money collectively and for the AFL competition and industry to make sense. By the same token, the Western Bulldogs also have a compelling argument that they should have been able to free up the $800k in salary cap room for competitive balance reasons if a player doesn't want to play.
 
Sure, but if a company provides and pays for mental health care that is reasonable in the circumstances and the employee doesn't engage in it in good faith, they would be less cautious in terminating that employee.

I’m not sure that a company is entitled to force treatment on a worker. I’d expect there is an onus on the worker to show that they’re attempting to get better so they can return to work. Who knows what treatment JUH was getting and what the advice would have been in terms of socialising etc.

I know it looks bad from the outside and I reckon he was taking the absolute piss. But if you remove the professional sportsperson aspect, how many people would think it reasonable that a person with genuine work related mental health problems isn’t allowed to go out with their mates until they’re well enough to go back to work?

To sack him, the AFL/Dogs would have to prove his problems weren’t genuine or weren’t caused by his employment. They’d have just ended up paying a lot of money to end up in the same place.
 

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I would have hoped that the AFL is in the position to protect its unique interest in competitive balance in court though. It does things like have a salary cap, national draft, lack of free agency before 8 years which are all forms of restraint on trade in an employment contract sense in court, but the AFL is confident and should be able to defend it because of its unique interest in competitive balance that allows for the players to earn more money collectively and for the AFL competition and industry to make sense. By the same token, the Western Bulldogs also have a compelling argument that they should have been able to free up the $800k in salary cap room for competitive balance reasons if a player doesn't want to play.
Sure they should be, but if you were the AFL would you risk rolling the dice on the courts agreeing with you in what is potentially a multi-billion dollar gamble, rather than just sweeping it under the rug?
 
to go out with their mates until they’re well enough to go back to work?
I don't think it's this that the Dogs fans have issue with (though it is frustrating), its the lack of desire to self-improve mental health in a rehabilitation sense to get himself back on the park that he's obligated to under the terms of his contract.
I’m not sure that a company is entitled to force treatment on a worker.
The AFL can - they can obligate an injured player to rehabilitate their injury, or face termination. Some rehab with more vigor than others, but there is at least a minimum standard. A player isn't allowed to just not turn up to his surgery date, for example.
I’d expect there is an onus on the worker to show that they’re attempting to get better so they can return to work. Who knows what treatment JUH was getting and what the advice would have been in terms of socialising etc.
This is what Dogs fans take issue with. Reading between the lines of club communication and the rumoured "in the know" posters here on BF, it is highly doubtful that JUH showed the appropriate attempts in getting better to improve his mental health (for example, he just didn't turn up to therapy sessions), and that the level of treatment and quality of advice was extremely high - it was reported that the AFL stepped in and provided their own mental health treatment pysch, one of the most qualified and highest-quality in Australia.
weren’t caused by his employment.
You're assuming that his mental health struggles were caused by the Dogs, which is just not the case at all.
They’d have just ended up paying a lot of money to end up in the same place.
I would have hoped that the AFL would be the ones paying for it, not the Dogs, because ultimately the players union and the employment rules are with the AFL and not the clubs - what happened to us could have happened to any clubs, because nothing about our relationship with JUH was any different to what any club would have done.
 
Sure they should be, but if you were the AFL would you risk rolling the dice on the courts agreeing with you in what is potentially a multi-billion dollar gamble, rather than just sweeping it under the rug?
Sure, but then that's when you hold that threat over JUH and he negotiates a payout and a settlement and the Dogs and the AFL can claw back some of the $800,000 that he was paid last year, rather than paying out the full amount. Because JUH would have not gotten any of it had he lost in court. I don't think anyone was expecting the Dogs to be able to pay nothing to JUH last year, it's just incredibly frustrating that the Dogs wasn't able to claw some of it back either through a friendly or acrimonious negotiating and settlement.
 
Sure, but then that's when you hold that threat over JUH and he negotiates a payout and a settlement and the Dogs and the AFL can claw back some of the $800,000 that he was paid last year, rather than paying out the full amount. Because JUH would have not gotten any of it had he lost in court. I don't think anyone was expecting the Dogs to be able to pay nothing to JUH last year, it's just incredibly frustrating that the Dogs wasn't able to claw some of it back either through a friendly or acrimonious negotiating and settlement.
Again you are assuming that JUH and his agent would negotiate, if I was in his position and set on getting the full wage then I wouldn't.

And you are also assuming that you would have heard about it if for example the AFL covered his wages for the year rather than the Dogs.
 
if I was in his position and set on getting the full wage then I wouldn't.
Going around in circles, but in his position, he may have not gotten the full wage had he lost in court, and I'm reasonably confident that the Dogs/AFL would have won a legal argument that Jamarra wasn't upholding his end of the bargain with the contract he signed (even including mental health context). The fact that he didn't turn up to the treatment he was provided is material to this. You don't have a legal argument if you yell "mental health" and then turn off your phone for all attempts for the club to contact you, for instance.

From that point, he might be set on getting the full wage, but if that was the case, he should have engaged with the mental health treatment more appropriately than what he did.
 

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