Current Julie Cutler - Murder - 1988 - Cottesloe WA *To the Coroner

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Such a complicated case of J.C Disappearance, I have followed this case for long time now, and my first prediction is still the same, somewhat though has slightly changed, in the 'I always believed J.C witnessed something she was not to have of, in one of the rooms she worked', and the current given coroner report makes me think she was in a confused mental state than normal, and to make my mind up and not return again to this sad case, is that she, J.C could have taken her own life, sadly, whilst taken her own life forcefully from the upmost scared/feared from some situation she had encountered.
Again, hope we will, but so unlikely now to find any positive and human reasoning to this case.
Condolences to all....
 

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BFew said:
The 6 APRIL 2023 Coroner's report conflicting with what Bret Christian reports in the Post Newspaper today about whether the purse, diary and other personal items been found in sand dunes at south Cottesloe items found at the beach in 1996 (8 years after Julie went missing), belonged to Julie or not.

On what basis does Bret Christian think that they have been 100% identified as Julie Cutlers?

Is there new evidence in the last few months that renders the April 2023 (179) Statement below by the Coroner on this, as out of date?

See far below for a history of some BF posts by Redacted and mrskafoops on this witness that the Post Newspaper finally reports about today.

'July 15, 2023'
‘I saw Julie Cutler buried’
'By BRET CHRISTIAN'

'Julie’s purse, diary and other personal items had been found years later in sand dunes at south Cottesloe.'


View attachment 1737945
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If only crimes could be committed in front of witnesses who were believable? Unfortunately a proportion of the population won't always come across as believable. Some people are natural embellishers, especially if they're God botherers, and fanciers of their own authorship pursuits. But it doesn't mean that they couldn't of actually witnessed some terrible crime in the making. If we disregard the quality of the report we are still left with salient facts to which the witnesses have reported. These should be able to be investigated and tested. BTW the location of the handbag found in 1996 possibly corroborates the location of the disposal site the the witness described. If Julie is there, then it's reasonable to assume that Lidar should be able to test whether her remains are where the witness described the hole to of been dug. How reliable or believable a witness is maybe important to the DPP, but should that consideration be used by the investigating authority in whether to investigate a witness's claims? If so, then just let's hope that crimes are never committed in front of nutjobs, religious hawkers, the homeless, those with intellectual disabilities, or anyone else who can't prove themselves to be entirely sane, rational and non socio pathologically impaired.
Is it the role of the Police to vet whom the Coroner can hear from, or does the Coroner choose from the Police reports as to whom the Coroner would like to call to hear evidence from?

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Redacted said:
If only crimes could be committed in front of witnesses who were believable? Unfortunately a proportion of the population won't always come across as believable. Some people are natural embellishers, especially if they're God botherers, and fanciers of their own authorship pursuits. But it doesn't mean that they couldn't of actually witnessed some terrible crime in the making. If we disregard the quality of the report we are still left with salient facts to which the witnesses have reported. These should be able to be investigated and tested. BTW the location of the handbag found in 1996 possibly corroborates the location of the disposal site the the witness described. If Julie is there, then it's reasonable to assume that Lidar should be able to test whether her remains are where the witness described the hole to of been dug. How reliable or believable a witness is maybe important to the DPP, but should that consideration be used by the investigating authority in whether to investigate a witness's claims? If so, then just let's hope that crimes are never committed in front of nutjobs, religious hawkers, the homeless, those with intellectual disabilities, or anyone else who can't prove themselves to be entirely sane, rational and non socio pathologically impaired.
Is it the role of the Police to vet whom the Coroner can hear from, or does the Coroner choose from the Police reports as to whom the Coroner would like to call to hear evidence from?

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Well said, Redacted
 
Redacted said:
Is it the role of the Police to vet whom the Coroner can hear from, or does the Coroner choose from the Police reports as to whom the Coroner would like to call to hear evidence from?

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I think it is the other way around. The Coroner tells them who they want to hear from and the Police fulfill the request by finding and serving subpoenas.
A state coroner is the equivalent of a Magistrate. They need to be able to be a Magistrate to be a coroner and are afforded the same protections etc of a magistrate.

Coroners Act 1996 (WA)
Section 14

(2) Every member of the Police Force of the State is
contemporaneously a coroner’s investigator.
 
The call over list is a list of matters that the coroner will soon investigate... I am not sure why Julie would be on the call over list for this year?
 
It must have been an error (doesn't sound like the Coroners Court at all!!!). I just received this:

Thank you for your query.


I cannot provide an explanation for the Call Over list reflecting Ms Cutler’s name. The Call Over was heard on Friday 9 February 2024, and the webpage reflects the Call-Over Results for that date, which I note does not reflect Ms Cutler’s name.


The presiding Coroner has completed her findings, which appear on the Inquest Findings 2023, and I can assure you this matter is no longer appearing on the Call Over list or Inquest List.


Kind regards


Manager Listings
 
mrskafoops said:
It must have been an error (doesn't sound like the Coroners Court at all!!!). I just received this:

Thank you for your query.


I cannot provide an explanation for the Call Over list reflecting Ms Cutler’s name. The Call Over was heard on Friday 9 February 2024, and the webpage reflects the Call-Over Results for that date, which I note does not reflect Ms Cutler’s name.


The presiding Coroner has completed her findings, which appear on the Inquest Findings 2023, and I can assure you this matter is no longer appearing on the Call Over list or Inquest List.


Kind regards


Manager Listings
Click to expand...
It wasn't there for me either about 2pm.
 
I have to say after reading the Coroner's Findings, I tend towards the suicide theory.

I completely respect family and friends saying that Julie didn't appear depressed or suicidal, but that ignores the fact that many suicides are people with a history of thoughts of suicide or even suicide attempts who act impulsively at the time. A lot of the commentary about Julie (moody, dramatic, impulsive, erratic, prior comments on suicide and a possible attempt, risk taking behaviour, struggles with abandonment and loneliness) reminds me of a couple of people I've known with Borderline Personality Disorder, of which impulsive suicide attempts can be a component. I don't pretend to be a psychologist, but that type of psychological examination was unheard of in 1988 so it's entirely plausible that Julie had some sort of disorder that we'll never know about. The only current assessment of whether she was likely to have been suicidal seems to be stuck in a timefreeze of 1988 and based on very outdated notions of whether she was depressed and planning it. I'd like to have seen some more modern psychological insight into the descriptions of her personality and behaviour by friends and family. A family history of suicide may also indicate the possibility of genetic psychological disorders.

The existence of the film depicting a suicide in exactly the manner Julie's incident occurred, which had enough association with Julie that she would likely have been aware of it, coupled with some of her references, is something I find hard to discount as coincidence.

I (sadly) had a friend with Borderline who followed a similar pattern to Julie and ultimately suicided in a rather bizarre way after fixating on the idea of doing it a particular way based on something he had seen. That led me down a rabbit hole with regards to this type of suicide and Borderline Personality Disorder. While this may be clouding my own judgement, I do think it is something that has been completely overlooked in Julie's case when trying to comprehend the strangeness of this as a suicide. And what I mean is, it's not as strange as it might appear.

Julie's emotional state was inconsistent across people who knew her to the degree that I would describe it as rather erratic with tendencies to the dramatic, she was behaving erratically on the night itself, and while she had offers of various parties apparently she seemed to be feeling a bit empty about the whole thing. She had also been drinking. This is a situation in which I can well see someone with a disorder driving to their favoured meaningful spot, experiencing familiar intrusive thoughts about suicide, fixating on the film they'd seen, and acting impulsively to follow through on the whole thing. She may even have believed she'd survive and would either get the support she so desperately deep down wanted or even watch her own funeral (ala that bizarre comment to a friend).
 
ms finch said:
I have to say after reading the Coroner's Findings, I tend towards the suicide theory.

I completely respect family and friends saying that Julie didn't appear depressed or suicidal, but that ignores the fact that many suicides are people with a history of thoughts of suicide or even suicide attempts who act impulsively at the time. A lot of the commentary about Julie (moody, dramatic, impulsive, erratic, prior comments on suicide and a possible attempt, risk taking behaviour, struggles with abandonment and loneliness) reminds me of a couple of people I've known with Borderline Personality Disorder, of which impulsive suicide attempts can be a component. I don't pretend to be a psychologist, but that type of psychological examination was unheard of in 1988 so it's entirely plausible that Julie had some sort of disorder that we'll never know about. The only current assessment of whether she was likely to have been suicidal seems to be stuck in a timefreeze of 1988 and based on very outdated notions of whether she was depressed and planning it. I'd like to have seen some more modern psychological insight into the descriptions of her personality and behaviour by friends and family. A family history of suicide may also indicate the possibility of genetic psychological disorders.

The existence of the film depicting a suicide in exactly the manner Julie's incident occurred, which had enough association with Julie that she would likely have been aware of it, coupled with some of her references, is something I find hard to discount as coincidence.

I (sadly) had a friend with Borderline who followed a similar pattern to Julie and ultimately suicided in a rather bizarre way after fixating on the idea of doing it a particular way based on something he had seen. That led me down a rabbit hole with regards to this type of suicide and Borderline Personality Disorder. While this may be clouding my own judgement, I do think it is something that has been completely overlooked in Julie's case when trying to comprehend the strangeness of this as a suicide. And what I mean is, it's not as strange as it might appear.

Julie's emotional state was inconsistent across people who knew her to the degree that I would describe it as rather erratic with tendencies to the dramatic, she was behaving erratically on the night itself, and while she had offers of various parties apparently she seemed to be feeling a bit empty about the whole thing. She had also been drinking. This is a situation in which I can well see someone with a disorder driving to their favoured meaningful spot, experiencing familiar intrusive thoughts about suicide, fixating on the film they'd seen, and acting impulsively to follow through on the whole thing. She may even have believed she'd survive and would either get the support she so desperately deep down wanted or even watch her own funeral (ala that bizarre comment to a friend).
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I agree. There were many tell tale signs that Julie was in fact suicidal. These signs of suicidal tendencies that we are now aware of, would not have been picked on up by family and friends in 1988 and just because she appeared relatively happy means nothing. Very often, people who are contemplating suicide keep this information to themselves. The people around them have no idea. When our young friend took her life we had no idea, it was such a shock. In hindsight there were some signs, but even if I knew then, what I now know about the signs of suicide ( we did a 'safetalk' suicide course after to help us cope) I dont believe we would have picked up that she was suicidal.
 

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Ms finch and Zedx ,
How do you propose JC managed to hide her body after she suicided?
Hidden so well that it's never been found!
 
zedx said:
I agree. There were many tell tale signs that Julie was in fact suicidal. These signs of suicidal tendencies that we are now aware of, would not have been picked on up by family and friends in 1988 and just because she appeared relatively happy means nothing. Very often, people who are contemplating suicide keep this information to themselves. The people around them have no idea. When our young friend took her life we had no idea, it was such a shock. In hindsight there were some signs, but even if I knew then, what I now know about the signs of suicide ( we did a 'safetalk' suicide course after to help us cope) I dont believe we would have picked up that she was suicidal.
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I'm sorry to hear you have been through something similar, too. You are right, unfortunately, that sometimes even with all the knowledge in the world and knowing what to look for there is nothing you can do.

Equally of course, as we're discussing re Julie, the people around may have no idea. I also think that back in 1988, aside from the lack of knowledge around suicide and psychology, there was a far greater stigma associated with suicide. There is still a stigma today, but it was even bigger back then. There would have been a reluctance to contemplate it, and it's difficult to reverse that headspace even with the passage of time and a different perspective on and experience of the world.

Plus I'm not sure how thoroughly police would have looked at suicide back then. They clearly contemplated it, but their knowledge was also much less than today. With all the close family and friends dismissing it and a young woman in the prime of her life with commitments and plans, it's unlikely the police looked at it thoroughly. In the revised investigation, police clearly did give it some solid investigation, but they're working with what was provided to them at the time, witnesses who have already drawn their own conclusions back then, and people who are uncontactable.
 
metic said:
Ms finch and Zedx ,
How do you propose JC managed to hide her body after she suicided?
Hidden so well that it's never been found!
Click to expand...
I presume it just got washed out to sea or she was attacked and eaten by sharks. Even if she was murdered those remain a distinct possibility, and cannot be ruled out.

There are many cases where people have disappeared into the ocean and they can't find them, even with the best will of experts assessing currents and comprehensive search parties. Oceans aren't entirely predictable.

I don't think anyone can say that her body would have behaved in exactly the same way as the car. They are not composed of the same thing. There is also the fact that marine life will take an interest in a body, not so much a car. Plus Julie may have subsequently tried to swim and removed herself from the car and ultimately drowned separately to it, something that has been known to happen even in suicides.
 
zedx said:
If the back seat of her car was able to come out of her car its quite possible she did too. Her body taken out to sea. People have disappeared this way before.
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The ocean was particularly rough that night, from what I can remember, and I think the roof of the car ended up coming off completely. There was the case of that Nigerian boy who drowned at Scarborough (or Swanbourne) and all they found of him was his femur 12 months later. And that was on a fine day. What has always bothered me is that the driver's window was wound down and the driver's door was ajar, which seems to indicate that she was trying to escape the car. The suicide theory is a strong one, but I feel that she perhaps did drive to the beach and that in the dark she has misjudged where the retaining wall was and ended up in the sea. She was quite drunk.
 
mrskafoops said:
The ocean was particularly rough that night, from what I can remember, and I think the roof of the car ended up coming off completely. There was the case of that Nigerian boy who drowned at Scarborough (or Swanbourne) and all they found of him was his femur 12 months later. And that was on a fine day. What has always bothered me is that the driver's window was wound down and the driver's door was ajar, which seems to indicate that she was trying to escape the car. The suicide theory is a strong one, but I feel that she perhaps did drive to the beach and that in the dark she has misjudged where the retaining wall was and ended up in the sea. She was quite drunk.
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Could be that. I wonder however if after she attempted suicide she suddenly regretted it as the reality hit her and tried to escape for that reason. That’s not uncommon. Plus given she was likely drunk when she made her decision and had tendencies to impulsiveness, she probably didn’t fully grasp what she was doing. Then she actually started to experience drowning. Those could both have contributed to her subsequently having a change of heart once it was happening and therefore trying to escape. That’s actually what I think happened.
 
ms finch said:
I have to say after reading the Coroner's Findings, I tend towards the suicide theory.

I completely respect family and friends saying that Julie didn't appear depressed or suicidal, but that ignores the fact that many suicides are people with a history of thoughts of suicide or even suicide attempts who act impulsively at the time. A lot of the commentary about Julie (moody, dramatic, impulsive, erratic, prior comments on suicide and a possible attempt, risk taking behaviour, struggles with abandonment and loneliness) reminds me of a couple of people I've known with Borderline Personality Disorder, of which impulsive suicide attempts can be a component. I don't pretend to be a psychologist, but that type of psychological examination was unheard of in 1988 so it's entirely plausible that Julie had some sort of disorder that we'll never know about. The only current assessment of whether she was likely to have been suicidal seems to be stuck in a timefreeze of 1988 and based on very outdated notions of whether she was depressed and planning it. I'd like to have seen some more modern psychological insight into the descriptions of her personality and behaviour by friends and family. A family history of suicide may also indicate the possibility of genetic psychological disorders.

The existence of the film depicting a suicide in exactly the manner Julie's incident occurred, which had enough association with Julie that she would likely have been aware of it, coupled with some of her references, is something I find hard to discount as coincidence.

I (sadly) had a friend with Borderline who followed a similar pattern to Julie and ultimately suicided in a rather bizarre way after fixating on the idea of doing it a particular way based on something he had seen. That led me down a rabbit hole with regards to this type of suicide and Borderline Personality Disorder. While this may be clouding my own judgement, I do think it is something that has been completely overlooked in Julie's case when trying to comprehend the strangeness of this as a suicide. And what I mean is, it's not as strange as it might appear.

Julie's emotional state was inconsistent across people who knew her to the degree that I would describe it as rather erratic with tendencies to the dramatic, she was behaving erratically on the night itself, and while she had offers of various parties apparently she seemed to be feeling a bit empty about the whole thing. She had also been drinking. This is a situation in which I can well see someone with a disorder driving to their favoured meaningful spot, experiencing familiar intrusive thoughts about suicide, fixating on the film they'd seen, and acting impulsively to follow through on the whole thing. She may even have believed she'd survive and would either get the support she so desperately deep down wanted or even watch her own funeral (ala that bizarre comment to a friend).
Click to expand...
Julie’s paternal uncle committed suicide.
 
ms finch said:
I have to say after reading the Coroner's Findings, I tend towards the suicide theory.

I completely respect family and friends saying that Julie didn't appear depressed or suicidal, but that ignores the fact that many suicides are people with a history of thoughts of suicide or even suicide attempts who act impulsively at the time. A lot of the commentary about Julie (moody, dramatic, impulsive, erratic, prior comments on suicide and a possible attempt, risk taking behaviour, struggles with abandonment and loneliness) reminds me of a couple of people I've known with Borderline Personality Disorder, of which impulsive suicide attempts can be a component. I don't pretend to be a psychologist, but that type of psychological examination was unheard of in 1988 so it's entirely plausible that Julie had some sort of disorder that we'll never know about. The only current assessment of whether she was likely to have been suicidal seems to be stuck in a timefreeze of 1988 and based on very outdated notions of whether she was depressed and planning it. I'd like to have seen some more modern psychological insight into the descriptions of her personality and behaviour by friends and family. A family history of suicide may also indicate the possibility of genetic psychological disorders.

The existence of the film depicting a suicide in exactly the manner Julie's incident occurred, which had enough association with Julie that she would likely have been aware of it, coupled with some of her references, is something I find hard to discount as coincidence.

I (sadly) had a friend with Borderline who followed a similar pattern to Julie and ultimately suicided in a rather bizarre way after fixating on the idea of doing it a particular way based on something he had seen. That led me down a rabbit hole with regards to this type of suicide and Borderline Personality Disorder. While this may be clouding my own judgement, I do think it is something that has been completely overlooked in Julie's case when trying to comprehend the strangeness of this as a suicide. And what I mean is, it's not as strange as it might appear.

Julie's emotional state was inconsistent across people who knew her to the degree that I would describe it as rather erratic with tendencies to the dramatic, she was behaving erratically on the night itself, and while she had offers of various parties apparently she seemed to be feeling a bit empty about the whole thing. She had also been drinking. This is a situation in which I can well see someone with a disorder driving to their favoured meaningful spot, experiencing familiar intrusive thoughts about suicide, fixating on the film they'd seen, and acting impulsively to follow through on the whole thing. She may even have believed she'd survive and would either get the support she so desperately deep down wanted or even watch her own funeral (ala that bizarre comment to a friend).
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I’ve been thinking about this and I think you might be right. They were quite focussed on Suicide at the inquest too.
 
mrskafoops said:
I’ve been thinking about this and I think you might be right. They were quite focussed on Suicide at the inquest too.
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I noticed that the Coroner spent a lot more time covering suicide in the findings than any sort of foul play.

I think they spent a lot more time investigating suicide as well, probably due to our expanded and more comprehensive understanding of it now.
 
Her uncle David suicided 20/10/1974, when she was 8, Her Uncle Brian went to jail on 17/7/1972 when she was 10. Both these events, I think were too long before Julie's disappearance on 20/6/1988 to have any bearing upon her state of mind in 1988.
The only event that the Coroner states had any bearing upon her state of mind over the years was the death of her mother on 4/1/1976. Some 12 years to change suicidal ideation to a suicidal Act? How likely is that? Her sister Nicole experienced the same circumstances through her life, so environmental factors don't seem to cause the same adverse psychological outcomes if Julie's disappearance is at her own hand.
And accepting that would mean ignoring some of the evidence that would seem to indicate a third party possibly being involved. Maybe if there was foul play, it might never be solvable without further evidence, but should an open case be shelved because we're betting only upon an unproven suicide theory and the lack of ability to find evidence to solve the mystery of what reallydid happen?
 
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Redacted said:
Her uncle David suicided 20/10/1974, when she was 8, Her Uncle Brian went to jail on 17/7/1972 when she was 10. Both these events, I think were too long before Julie's disappearance on 20/6/1988 to have any bearing upon her state of mind in 1988.
The only event that the Coroner states had any bearing upon her state of mind over the years was the death of her mother on 4/1/1976. Some 12 years to change suicidal ideation to a suicidal Act? How likely is that? Her sister Nicole experienced the same circumstances through her life, so environmental factors don't seem to cause the same adverse psychological outcomes if Julie's disappearance is at her own hand.
And accepting that would mean ignoring some of the evidence that would seem to indicate a third party possibly being involved. Maybe if there was foul play, it might never be solvable without further evidence, but should an open case be shelved because we're betting only upon an unproven suicide theory and the lack of ability to find evidence to solve the mystery of what reallydid happen?
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With regards to her uncle, it isn’t about how his death impacted Julie’s state of mind on the day she died but rather the possibility that a history of suicide in the family can indicate a genetic predisposition towards mental illnesses.

I’m not sure I (or anyone) ever said the case should be shelved, just that I individually think the suicide theory is the most likely one. I was surprised at the amount of evidence presented at the inquest that supported the suicide theory, much of it things I’ve never seen noted before.

I would like to see more examination by the police of the suicide theory. I don’t think it was examined at all really at the time it happened, and a lot of the knowledge that we now have that would inform a suggestion of suicide wasn’t available at the time to guide an investigation. It may even rule it out. But I’m not sure that is going to be possible, because of the passage of time and the stigma around suicide, especially at the time it happened.
 
The thing that leads me against the suicide theory was that phone call to the television station that said. "Leave me alone" . While it could be a crank call, it might have been someone with knowledge of what happened to her.
 
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