Opinion Key position forward/ruck conundrum

[geelong_crazy26]

bringing in hamish as our number one ruckman creates a selection dilema

we have podsiadly hawkins and vardy who should all be regulars if they have pre seasons, then you have hamish who is a lock for the number 1 ruck, then west and simpson..

if we play a second ruckman, then we might not be able to have all 3 of vardy hawkins podsiadly up forward, adding a resting ruckman making it 4/6 inside the 50 being slow giants probably is too heavy, which means either podsiadly or vardy will miss out

and 2013 is make or break for dawson simpson, if he doesnt get games next year, he will either walk out to another club or be delisted, he wont be sitting around doing any apprenticeship

sadly there is no scenario where at least 2 dont miss out mentioned in my view

 

[Perthmadcatter]

Pods understands that his position in the 22 is at risk, if Vards plays to his potential, Pods moves into a back up kpf, like Moons did in 11, but this will only happen if Vards steps up. I don't believe Vards will play too much as 2nd ruck, bringing Hmac in has suggested that this is where the club wants to go. 2nd ruck is between West and Simpson, with West starting in front.

Simpson should come along pretty quickly, hopefully when Hmac is ready to retire, Simpson has pushed him aside as our gorilla #1 ruck, because Im not convinved West will get there.

 

[Seeds]

The season should start with McIntosh and West as rotating rucks and Pods and Hawkins as fowards. There is no way we can hive five talls. Four is the max. Vardy has to proove that he is capable of playing either as a foward or a ruck in the reserves. Taking two or three marks a game and kicking one goal does not mean he is ready to take over from Pods. He is a long way from it at this stage. He has talent but I expect he is a good two years away yet from being an automatic starting 18 player. The only queries on the other four are fitness.

 

[Turbocat]

Just my opinion... one must be aware that the days of best 22 , that play every week are done. We are moving into an era where its common that certain player if not all will play 50% to 70% of games.

McIntosh.. recruited to play the big games. To do what Ottens could ,ie win the ruck against any opponent on a given day. Just like Ottens there are questions over his body so we will balance his games and monitor him to ensure he is available for the right end of the season.

Simpson will be first drop for HM. If and when he is rested he must play #1. We must develop a setup that has the #1 ruck and the utility , and that must happen week in week out. Fitness has not been Simpsons strength either , if both he and HM are fit DS must play around 10 games

West will be our regular #2 , the utility. He showed that he can play #1 but the week after week of it is probably beyond him. He has previously shown a dangerous side to his game , he can go forward and fly , he can grab it thru the middle and run on to the goal and a long time ago he showed a nasty streak. That should should be encouraged. I dont want him to become like the Hanson Brothers in Slapshpt but he must start hurt people , even if it costs a few weeks. Come finals a player like that rarely misses out on selection.

Pods comes back in as our starting forward.At least Preseason all eyes will be watching his form compared to Vardy. Pods had a poor season 2012 but after the shoulder its not unusual. His game is mark reliant , if he can refind the form that amazed the comp he will find himself , like HM, used for 50% to 70% of games. Used against specific opponents , used to balance our wear and tear on Vardy. On radio recently Cam Mooney said he had heard whispers about him playing back. To do this he would still have to get his marking confidence back. At his best his marking is up there with Taylor. If Vardy becomes to good it may be his only spot.

Vardy , showed what a dynamic addition he could be against the Swans last year. It may be that he pushes past Pods. He has that much upside that he may select himself. Again , we must balance his body , a lot talent on our list but there seem to be a lot of fragility as well.

In the end if Pods gets pushed out , and finishes the year helping the likes of Walker and Hamling develop , he will be thought of no less. He got a ride that was like a dream. Played finals , won a flag. But as we all know sooner or later , dream over. We must wake up and move on to a new day. Pods new day is coming its just matter of when.

But going thru this it just becomes even more apparent how difficult it will be for the likes of Brown to fins a spot , let alone if we draft another tall.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

The season should start with McIntosh and West as rotating rucks and Pods and Hawkins as fowards. There is no way we can hive five talls. Four is the max. Vardy has to proove that he is capable of playing either as a foward or a ruck in the reserves. Taking two or three marks a game and kicking one goal does not mean he is ready to take over from Pods. He is a long way from it at this stage. He has talent but I expect he is a good two years away yet from being an automatic starting 18 player. The only queries on the other four are fitness.

I agree that Vardy has a bit of work to do to take over from Pods or West, as Pods (providing he plays a full season) is still a 50-goal prospect, until he proves otherwise.

However, I don't think five big forwards/rucks should necessarily be dismissed out of hand. It would be based on our midfield's performance last year, but if our mids can get back to being one of the best groups in the league, a forward line of Pods, Hawkins and West/Vardy/Brown/Walker/Kersten (who doesn't have the height of the others, but definitely a prototype power forward) could cause nightmares for defences like Hawthorn, Fremantle and Carlton.

You've got to be sure that the delivery will be good, otherwise teams will cut us up off half back, like Reilly did for Adelaide and McPhee did for Fremantle during the year. But I reckon it would definitely be worth a trial in the NAB Cup as a horses-for-courses option to exploit small defences.

 

[footscore]

can't see it not working.
We did the same thing back in 2008 and Blake rucked most of the game while Ottens rested forward and kicked a goal or so per match.
We had other big forwards down there in Lonergan & Mooney (Nablett in the years before).

Vardy moves much better than Otto so he'd be quicker and more damaging when it comes to defensive pressure and we know what Hawkins delivers.
Pods just needs a good pre season as he was a bit behind because of a shoulder reco this year and he should be back to his usual self in 2013.

 

[Seeds]

I agree that Vardy has a bit of work to do to take over from Pods or West, as Pods (providing he plays a full season) is still a 50-goal prospect, until he proves otherwise.

However, I don't think five big forwards/rucks should necessarily be dismissed out of hand. It would be based on our midfield's performance last year, but if our mids can get back to being one of the best groups in the league, a forward line of Pods, Hawkins and West/Vardy/Brown/Walker/Kersten (who doesn't have the height of the others, but definitely a prototype power forward) could cause nightmares for defences like Hawthorn, Fremantle and Carlton.

You've got to be sure that the delivery will be good, otherwise teams will cut us up off half back, like Reilly did for Adelaide and McPhee did for Fremantle during the year. But I reckon it would definitely be worth a trial in the NAB Cup as a horses-for-courses option to exploit small defences.

In the past 5 may of worked but I'm not sure it can now with the sub. You've also got to remember that we will have Menzel this year who provides another marking target. We will already have lots of marking power up foward with just two permanents, a resting ruckman and Menzel. We need to have the smaller guys at there feet as well. If anything we may go to just having one key forward, one resting ruck/forward and Menzel. We did alot this year and we didn't even have Menzel.

 

[David the Cat]

Vardy is the most exciting talent I have seen for a while..( Dan Menzel aside )..if the Gods are kind to him and he reaches his potential, he will become a household name!

Has KPF written all over him. By seasons end I would like to think he will be clunking marks and running the opposition CHB off their legs.

McIntosh and West doing the ruck work...Simpson to continue his development, but getting games.

As Turbo said, the days of best 22 are long gone. Best 22 lasts precisely one week these days.

 

[Belisarius]

Vardy is the most exciting talent I have seen for a while..( Dan Menzel aside )..if the Gods are kind to him and he reaches his potential, he will become a household name!

Has KPF written all over him. By seasons end I would like to think he will be clunking marks and running the opposition CHB off their legs.

Gee I hope you are right about Vardy.

We had Stoneham at CHF, Brownless at FF and Ablett at HHF.

We could have Vardy at CHF, Hawkins at FF and Menzel on the HFF.

Let it be true - as I really like watching an attacking Geelong side - just as long as we have the backline - which we do presently but not then.

 

[catswhiskers]

Turbo has summed it up pretty well.

Assuming no injuries:

Hmac and Simpson for first ruck with Hmac starting (Hawks, North,Carlton Sydney) -all have good rucks.
West is the N0.2 but will play more games than any other ruck we have. Vardy to support. Vardy also to play at CHF if required/hitting straps.

Injuries will determine how things go but if we get away well, rotations will be on again.

Must be better than 2012 when we were running close to empty for rucks during the West Coast game.

 

[footscore]

be a perfect time to play the big blokes as the sub and manage McIntosh properly throughout the season.
Sub him out halfway through the 3rd and bring on Simpson.

 

[FredLeDeux]

be a perfect time to play the big blokes as the sub and manage McIntosh properly throughout the season.
Sub him out halfway through the 3rd and bring on Simpson.

Why?

 

[footscore]

Why?

McIntosh has only just started running after having knee surgery and he may need a while to find his best form start of 2013 season.
Playing him the whole game wouldn't be an issue but they may choose to manage his workload differently due to his history with injuries, played something like 7 matches in 2 years.

 

[David the Cat]

Hawkins, Vardy, Menzel....got a good ring to it all right. Surround them with Motlop, Varcoe, Smedts, SJ, Christensen, Murdoch, Caddy, and Stokes from time to time and you have one hell of a forward set up....and one set for the future as well.

As you suggested Belisarius, a few solid back line prospects coming on and being developed and we look pretty good going forward. CS nominated 2015....looks to be on track right now.

 

[kimodgers]

In the modern game, wouldn't a healthier problem be to have a logjam of youngish skilled fleet footers in the mid than too many not so young (I know, I know...just HMac & Pods ) tall options up forward?

My knowledge of footy is a lap & a half behind most posters but I still can't understand why we locked ourselves out of an extra gun midfield pick in favour of crowding up our rucks & KPFs.

Just making some idle noise here. Missing the footy too much.

 

[FredLeDeux]

McIntosh has only just started running after having knee surgery and he may need a while to find his best form start of 2013 season.
Playing him the whole game wouldn't be an issue but they may choose to manage his workload differently due to his history with injuries, played something like 7 matches in 2 years.

But it would make our on-ballers more tired and slower in the last 1/4, because they wouldn't have the fresh player thrown into the rotation cycle; and the other team would.
The way to deal with HMc's fitness, if it is a problem, is adequate rotations with the 2nd ruck, namely West or Vardy.
Barring injuries, it would be very surprising to see HMc and Simpson in the same team, save in very unusual circumstances.

 

[footscore]

I agree Fred was just throwing the idea out there

Scott already tried Mitch Brown and Walker? as the subs but your right about the tired legs factor.

 

[rooke33]

Turbo is on the money, will be a fair bit of rotation going on in the squad. The way I see it Hawkins, Podsiadly, Vardy, West and McIntosh will all be in the rd 1 team provided they are fit. I don't expect to see much of Simpson unless there is an injury, would be surprised if he plays many more than 5 games.

 

[sarah.13]

be a perfect time to play the big blokes as the sub and manage McIntosh properly throughout the season.
Sub him out halfway through the 3rd and bring on Simpson.

Problem with that is if we get a injury early in the game (to a midfielder) we would be extremely top heavy.
Subs are usually versatile types that can play in a number of positions.

 

[dazbroncos]

Just my opinion... one must be aware that the days of best 22 , that play every week are done. We are moving into an era where its common that certain player if not all will play 50% to 70% of games.

McIntosh.. recruited to play the big games. To do what Ottens could ,ie win the ruck against any opponent on a given day. Just like Ottens there are questions over his body so we will balance his games and monitor him to ensure he is available for the right end of the season.

Simpson will be first drop for HM. If and when he is rested he must play #1. We must develop a setup that has the #1 ruck and the utility , and that must happen week in week out. Fitness has not been Simpsons strength either , if both he and HM are fit DS must play around 10 games

West will be our regular #2 , the utility. He showed that he can play #1 but the week after week of it is probably beyond him. He has previously shown a dangerous side to his game , he can go forward and fly , he can grab it thru the middle and run on to the goal and a long time ago he showed a nasty streak. That should should be encouraged. I dont want him to become like the Hanson Brothers in Slapshpt but he must start hurt people , even if it costs a few weeks. Come finals a player like that rarely misses out on selection.

Pods comes back in as our starting forward.At least Preseason all eyes will be watching his form compared to Vardy. Pods had a poor season 2012 but after the shoulder its not unusual. His game is mark reliant , if he can refind the form that amazed the comp he will find himself , like HM, used for 50% to 70% of games. Used against specific opponents , used to balance our wear and tear on Vardy. On radio recently Cam Mooney said he had heard whispers about him playing back. To do this he would still have to get his marking confidence back. At his best his marking is up there with Taylor. If Vardy becomes to good it may be his only spot.

Vardy , showed what a dynamic addition he could be against the Swans last year. It may be that he pushes past Pods. He has that much upside that he may select himself. Again , we must balance his body , a lot talent on our list but there seem to be a lot of fragility as well.

In the end if Pods gets pushed out , and finishes the year helping the likes of Walker and Hamling develop , he will be thought of no less. He got a ride that was like a dream. Played finals , won a flag. But as we all know sooner or later , dream over. We must wake up and move on to a new day. Pods new day is coming its just matter of when.

But going thru this it just becomes even more apparent how difficult it will be for the likes of Brown to fins a spot , let alone if we draft another tall.

Could not agree more TC. I made a post earlier in another thread to this exact point relating to our first 4 games in 19 days. With that schedule, we can no longer expect the same 22 to do it each week. I think realistically we are looking at a best 26 scenario each week with as many as 32-33 guys getting games.

Im not sure there will be common metric used each week either. Weather, travel, injuries, load rating, ground time etc will all play into it and on this basis ( along with CS making sure each week has 4 under 50 gamers getting a go) 26 is probably the number that will get a go.

Go Catters

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

In the modern game, wouldn't a healthier problem be to have a logjam of youngish skilled fleet footers in the mid than too many not so young (I know, I know...just HMac & Pods ) tall options up forward?

My knowledge of footy is a lap & a half behind most posters but I still can't understand why we locked ourselves out of an extra gun midfield pick in favour of crowding up our rucks & KPFs.

Just making some idle noise here. Missing the footy too much.

It's a fair call. I think there's a few issues though:

1. We saw the need to have four ready-to-go ruckmen on the list last year, with Vardy and Simpson having injury-plagued seasons, West inevitably hurting himself after a monster workload throughout the year and then Orren breaking his hand when he was filling in for West. You need four ruckmen capable of playing AFL football and you might have a developing <21 ruckman on top of that. The fact that three of ours have shown that they can go forward and kick multiple goals in the AFL is a bonus.

2. As much as we're encouraged by our abundance of tall forwards coming through, Hawkins is probably the only one that you'd put the house on to reach 200 games. The others (Brown, Walker, Kersten and Vardy) still have questions over whether they are the long-term replacement for Pods, for various reasons. It's unlikely that all of them will ultimately be busts for us, as they've all displayed great potential and all are still 22 and under. But it's just as unlikely that all four will work out and be with us in two years' time. If you did a poll on here asking which of the four is most likely to be Hawkins' long-term sidekick in the forward line, my guess is you'd get a pretty even spread of results.

3. We can get that midfielder with pick #16 (though we're just as likely to go for a key defender). Either way, despite the mediocre output from our midfield in general in 2012, the cattle is there. Selwood, Kelly, Johnson, Bartel, Duncan, Corey, Caddy, Taylor Hunt, Varcoe, Christensen, Motlop and Murdoch on the wings, Chapman and Menzel for a cameo or two, and then Stringer (who looks to me like a seriously good player), Horlin-Smith (ditto), Cowan and Sheringham, who have all had their moments...it's not going to be mistaken for our 2007-09 midfield, with Ablett, Bartel, Ling, Corey, Kelly and Chapman all in their absolute primes, Selwood rapidly approaching his and guys like Enright, Johnson, Varcoe and Rooke getting thrown in there from time to time to mix it up, but I think some combination of the group listed above has the quality to mix it up with just about anyone else in the league.

 

[Vdubs]

Just on Brown, not convinced he'll be thought of or used as a KF this year or later. Whether he'll be a tall winger, or an option in defence, I hope he is used and useful.

 

[The Casey Cat]

we have podsiadly hawkins and vardy who should all be regulars if they have pre seasons

With McIntosh now at the club Vardy is no longer 'should be a regular' as far as round 1 goes. Whether ruck or forward Pods and West are ahead of him. He will start in the reserves and earn his spot and that's fine.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

With McIntosh now at the club Vardy is no longer 'should be a regular' as far as round 1 goes. Whether ruck or forward Pods and West are ahead of him. He will start in the reserves and earn his spot and that's fine.

im basing this on what i believe vardy is capable of and given a pre season where he should be at come round 1 of 2013, i think he will be impossible not to select and will be a better player than west

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Just on Brown, not convinced he'll be thought of or used as a KF this year or later. Whether he'll be a tall winger, or an option in defence, I hope he is used and useful.

he never will be a key forward, simply doesnt have the body strength or capacity to put on a lot of strength