Kreuzer getting drafted as a forward

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Correct me if i am wrong but didn't a 196cm guy called Kernehan play in the ruck for Glenelg when he was younger

Who

You've got the wrong club mate

 

[btdg]

This is the eternal problem with Kreuzer. Is he a KP forward? Is he a ruckman? The answer seems to be neither. He's just a generic 'big'. How many of those are successful at AFL level? Rocca is one, and perhaps Ottens is the closest comparison. After that, you've got Pavlich and Goodes, who are both closer to midfielders than ruckmen; and then basically no-one. The rest of the top bigs are either exclusively ruckmen (Cox, Lade) or forwards (Brown, Franklin, Riewoldt)

I see no point in drafting a player if you can't see just HOW they're going to be a good footballer, especially if there is an alternative who is closely matched in talent who you CAN see slotting right into footy in a specialist role. And in this case, Cotchin appears to provide that exact alternative.

It would be nuts to draft Kreuzer simply because we lack ruckmen. It would be even crazier to draft him then shoehorn him into a position he can't play, just because we can...

 

[albyg]

Who

You've got the wrong club mate

Sticks played in the ruck when he first started in the seniors at Glenelg. You taking the piss because of my spelling of Kernahan, (just saw the error).

 

[OZBomb]

This is the eternal problem with Kreuzer. Is he a KP forward? Is he a ruckman? The answer seems to be neither. He's just a generic 'big'. How many of those are successful at AFL level? Rocca is one, and perhaps Ottens is the closest comparison. After that, you've got Pavlich and Goodes, who are both closer to midfielders than ruckmen; and then basically no-one. The rest of the top bigs are either exclusively ruckmen (Cox, Lade) or forwards (Brown, Franklin, Riewoldt)

I see no point in drafting a player if you can't see just HOW they're going to be a good footballer, especially if there is an alternative who is closely matched in talent who you CAN see slotting right into footy in a specialist role. And in this case, Cotchin appears to provide that exact alternative.

It would be nuts to draft Kreuzer simply because we lack ruckmen. It would be even crazier to draft him then shoehorn him into a position he can't play, just because we can...

Kosi at the Saints is the best comparison... The kid will be fine.

 

[Bluebear]

This is the eternal problem with Kreuzer. Is he a KP forward? Is he a ruckman? The answer seems to be neither. He's just a generic 'big'. How many of those are successful at AFL level? Rocca is one, and perhaps Ottens is the closest comparison. After that, you've got Pavlich and Goodes, who are both closer to midfielders than ruckmen; and then basically no-one. The rest of the top bigs are either exclusively ruckmen (Cox, Lade) or forwards (Brown, Franklin, Riewoldt)

I see no point in drafting a player if you can't see just HOW they're going to be a good footballer, especially if there is an alternative who is closely matched in talent who you CAN see slotting right into footy in a specialist role. And in this case, Cotchin appears to provide that exact alternative.

It would be nuts to draft Kreuzer simply because we lack ruckmen. It would be even crazier to draft him then shoehorn him into a position he can't play, just because we can...

So you wouldn't draft Rocca, Ottens, Goodes or Pav?

 

[Banga19]

This is the eternal problem with Kreuzer. Is he a KP forward? Is he a ruckman? The answer seems to be neither. He's just a generic 'big'. How many of those are successful at AFL level? Rocca is one, and perhaps Ottens is the closest comparison. After that, you've got Pavlich and Goodes, who are both closer to midfielders than ruckmen; and then basically no-one. The rest of the top bigs are either exclusively ruckmen (Cox, Lade) or forwards (Brown, Franklin, Riewoldt)

I see no point in drafting a player if you can't see just HOW they're going to be a good footballer, especially if there is an alternative who is closely matched in talent who you CAN see slotting right into footy in a specialist role. And in this case, Cotchin appears to provide that exact alternative.

It would be nuts to draft Kreuzer simply because we lack ruckmen. It would be even crazier to draft him then shoehorn him into a position he can't play, just because we can...

Well then lets hope he is a unique player, not like anybody ever before. Does he really have to resemble another player to be a good player?

 

[Blue_Virus]

Kreuzer should start as a forward -- tell me your not going to jump out of your seat when judd kicks into f50 and The big K monsters Nick Maxwell in front of 80,000 at the G turns and kicks a goal! should be a bit more exciting than watching Bryce Gibbs having to chase assss in a back pocket! poor fella!

He,s goin to cop 3rd defender at best, throw in a bit of f50 rucking and hes goin to have a solid 1st season. Leave the bash and crash for the Clokes and co.

 

[diesel1]

As of recently I have been casting my doubts over Kruzer. Yes we need a ruckman, but we need a pure ruckman. Luenberger is what I clasify as a pure ruckman, complete all-round. If it's true that we are drafting Kruzer as a forward then I think we should over look him. I would rather develop him in the magoos and improve his rucking.

When I have watched him resting in the forward line, he really doesn't take marks on the lead, he just uses his height, don't think just proping and taking a mark would be effective at AFL level.

Saying that, as much as this would hurt Gilly, HBF and Co. I don't think Cotchin is the best avialable talent in the draft. Palmer would have to be, this has just cemented my decision looking at the draft camp. His results were impressive, and could be used in the midfield and the forward line. The only query I have over Palmer is his defencive presure. I'm sure if Palmer was Victorian he would be pumped up as much as Cotchin is now.

To conclude, I would be happy with 1.Palmer, 2.Cotchin, 3.Morton. Palmer is a WA and has poor attitude which means i would swap 1 and 2, no problems

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

This is the eternal problem with Kreuzer. Is he a KP forward? Is he a ruckman? The answer seems to be neither. He's just a generic 'big'. How many of those are successful at AFL level? Rocca is one, and perhaps Ottens is the closest comparison. After that, you've got Pavlich and Goodes, who are both closer to midfielders than ruckmen; and then basically no-one. The rest of the top bigs are either exclusively ruckmen (Cox, Lade) or forwards (Brown, Franklin, Riewoldt)

I see no point in drafting a player if you can't see just HOW they're going to be a good footballer, especially if there is an alternative who is closely matched in talent who you CAN see slotting right into footy in a specialist role. And in this case, Cotchin appears to provide that exact alternative.

It would be nuts to draft Kreuzer simply because we lack ruckmen. It would be even crazier to draft him then shoehorn him into a position he can't play, just because we can...

So you think KReuzer cant ruck?
Or doesnt have a position??

Based on what???

Whats Cotchins specialist role that he can slot straight into??... a flanker??

GET REAL!!... i think some of you blokes are losing it...

Its ike Kreuzer is a big dud... and the boys from Big Footy.have suddenly become experts in recruitment... and the recruiters (most of whome rate Kreuzer at 1) are all dumb!!!..

Cotchin will not be a midfielder for a few years.... he will slot into half forward...

I dont think were crying out for half forwards right now ..

Face it kiddies.. theyre both young and will both need seasons under their belts.. and they both will be good...

All this Cotchin is a superstar.. Kreuzer is shyt is really getting to me...


Why do we need Cotchin (The next Judd as some people call him in here) when we already have Judd... the real Judd.. the one and only Judd... the Judd thats we dont have to cross ou fingers to be "the next Judd"..

The rest is all guesswork.

Meanwhile Kreuzer carried the Knights for a whole season in the ruck and he was run down and injured towards the end... (yes even his draft camp resuts)... whilst Cotchin was swanning around playing school footy and came in fresh towards the end of the TAC season when the regulars were run down after a hard season.

Consider Cotchins State championships form too...

How did he go???

 

[Ole Gill]

Lads, at the end of the day, we've got 2 no 1 picks and a number 2 pick in our midfield to go with Judd.

I think our talls department needs more attention than our midfield

 

[SurreyBlue]

Lads, at the end of the day, we've got 2 no 1 picks and a number 2 pick in our midfield to go with Judd.

I think our talls department needs more attention than our midfield

and Stevens.

 

[Salaryman]

So you think KReuzer cant ruck?
Or doesnt have a position??

Based on what???

Whats Cotchins specialist role that he can slot straight into??... a flanker??

GET REAL!!... i think some of you blokes are losing it...

Its ike Kreuzer is a big dud... and the boys from Big Footy.have suddenly become experts in recruitment... and the recruiters (most of whome rate Kreuzer at 1) are all dumb!!!..

Cotchin will not be a midfielder for a few years.... he will slot into half forward...

I dont think were crying out for half forwards right now ..

Face it kiddies.. theyre both young and will both need seasons under their belts.. and they both will be good...

All this Cotchin is a superstar.. Kreuzer is shyt is really getting to me...


Why do we need Cotchin (The next Judd as some people call him in here) when we already have Judd... the real Judd.. the one and only Judd... the Judd thats we dont have to cross ou fingers to be "the next Judd"..

The rest is all guesswork.

Meanwhile Kreuzer carried the Knights for a whole season in the ruck and he was run down and injured towards the end... (yes even his draft camp resuts)... whilst Cotchin was swanning around playing school footy and came in fresh towards the end of the TAC season when the regulars were run down after a hard season.

Consider Cotchins State championships form too...

How did he go???

Aside from being unprecedently heavily tagged at Subiaco, was practically BOG against SA in the bog at MC Labour. , serviceable before getting injured at Casey Fields .

I don't disagree with you thugh THS, the problem is people get a favourite and argue till they are black and blue that it is the obvious choice and the other player isn't all he is hyped up to be. The fact is, both players are as good as the hype warrants.

 

[Sezzac1]

Hughesy's seriously lost the plot.....isn't Scotty Clayton looking for a gig?? I'd rather recruit Jarrad Grant as a permanent forward

Did I mention how often WH reads this site

 

[Artie Bucco]

I'd liken him more to Ottens due to his agility, and if he can be as good as Ottens was this season, I'd take him

Hampson and Kreuzer in 4 years time

 

[Sezzac1]

was practically BOG against SA in the bog at MC Labour. ,

Mitch Farmer not playing that game ?????

 

[Aussie Joe]

I dont see many big players who can move to as many contests as Kreuzer does... i see very few big men have his skills and smarts.. he tackles like a demon when the ball hits the ground and is in dispute...he is as good below his knees as a man much smaller.... if he cant mark it he is smart enough to bring it to ground where a guy like Eddie Betts will totally feed off him...he can stay a kick behind the play and be at the right spot to get to the contests... HE BECOMES A 19TH PLAYER .. during a game.. where most ruckmen are rendered useless in open field play.... his field kicking to position and goalkicking nouse make him the complete footballer...

Then again ive only seen him play like 6 or 7 times over 2 seasons ......

Here, Here.

Kruezer is like a .......... Kruezer He it like no one else.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

You start bagging ppl on BF for not being experts on recruitment and then you give a lecture why Kreuz should be taken. You are also not paid recruiter and your opinions are no more informed than any other supporter who has watched these kids.

You say most recruiters have Kreuz at #1 but you have no idea how any of them truly rate the kids. The media has had him at #1 from a long way out, thats all. The media/recruiters ( public perception) also had Tambling at 2 or 3 and in front of Griffin/Buddy etc

I wish I had no doubts about Kreuzer being able to hold his own in his ruckwork against the best/biggest AFL ruckmen going around, but I have strong doubts on that issue.

I also wish I believed he would be a gun forward at AFL level, but again I am far from convinced.

The question has to be asked that if he struggles with his ruckwork where will he fit into the team's structure/plans.

For me the closest comparison to Cotchin is G.Abblett jnr.
Cotch has less depth in his kicking, and not quite as strong, but probably has more talent overhead.
I do not have doubts that Cotchin will be a gun mid.

Oi Homer!!!

I havent bagged Cotchin once!!!!

Unless you can roll out where i have...

Ive said.. i have my favourite but one is not a superman and one is not a dud..
So Cotchin to you without playing a game... "For me the closest comparison to Cotchin is G.Abblett jnr.
Cotch has less depth in his kicking, and not quite as strong, but probably has more talent overhead.".... and he hasnt played a single AFL game....

Thats being very specific about where Cotchin is better than a champion like Ablett...

Does Cotchin even have to develop any part of his game to be like Ablett junior.. or is he a ready made Ablett junior..."but not quite as strong"This is where you lose all semblence of any scrap of rationale a serious debater would be expected to have....


Cotchin is just as far from Ablett junior as Kreuzer is of dominating a ruck position.....

When Cotchin goes to WC and there is no Judd or Cousins.. if thats where he plays and the heat is turned up...... then you can see if he is like Ablett junior...


SURE over a period of time he might become that good.. but HE ISNT NOW!!!!... just like Kreuzer isnt a ruckman right now....
Like i said...Kreuzer is a footballer.. and todays football doesnt have specific spots... the game is much more technical than it was 20 years ago....

Kreuzer has enough positives to suggest he will be a gun footballer... he will be able to ruck.. (unless you can show me how he wont be able to ruck and its a red herring).. and he can go forward and kick goals... (unless again you can demonstrate to me that he wont be able to go forward and kick goals)...

Because youre trying to demonstrate that Cotchin is already the same as Gary Ablett junior..... and that he wont have to stay in a poicket or a flank for large periods of his first few seasons...

So im not getting what youre saying.....

Can you demonstrate to me how he is Gary Ablett junior.. and how Kreuzer cant play AFL football cos he doesnt have a spot or not??

But using logic and evidence.. instead of pure guess work...

 

[Salaryman]

Mitch Farmer not playing that game ?????

Do you want me to underline 'practically' for you next time??

 

[btdg]

So you think KReuzer cant ruck?
Or doesnt have a position??

Based on what???

Whats Cotchins specialist role that he can slot straight into??... a flanker??

GET REAL!!... i think some of you blokes are losing it...

Its ike Kreuzer is a big dud... and the boys from Big Footy.have suddenly become experts in recruitment... and the recruiters (most of whome rate Kreuzer at 1) are all dumb!!!..

Cotchin will not be a midfielder for a few years.... he will slot into half forward...

I dont think were crying out for half forwards right now ..

Face it kiddies.. theyre both young and will both need seasons under their belts.. and they both will be good...

All this Cotchin is a superstar.. Kreuzer is shyt is really getting to me...


Why do we need Cotchin (The next Judd as some people call him in here) when we already have Judd... the real Judd.. the one and only Judd... the Judd thats we dont have to cross ou fingers to be "the next Judd"..

The rest is all guesswork.

Meanwhile Kreuzer carried the Knights for a whole season in the ruck and he was run down and injured towards the end... (yes even his draft camp resuts)... whilst Cotchin was swanning around playing school footy and came in fresh towards the end of the TAC season when the regulars were run down after a hard season.

Consider Cotchins State championships form too...

How did he go???

I'm saying the jury is out on whether Kreuzer can ruck at AFL level. He is slightly undersized for a ruckman, and others have criticised his tapwork. He may have carried the Knights, but he was also playing against boys. There may not have been a single AFL starting standard ruckman amongst the group he played; statistically, you'd think it unlikely that more than 1 or 2 decent AFL ruckmen would come out of a single TAC cup comp. In the AFL, he's going to have to ruck against guys like Lade, Cox etc; they're all physical freaks (as he is), and it'll come down to smarts and technique. Neither of those are proven in his case.

Now we're talking about shoe-horning him into a forward position. Really? You draft the best player in the draft on his form as a ruckman, and make him play CHF? Doesn't that sound just a little bit risky to you?

As for Cotchin - he's a midfielder. He can slot straight into the team, as you point out, as a flanker who rotates for patches in the midfield. Eventually, he'll be somewhere between a good and great AFL midfielder. You can see exactly how and why he'll be successful at AFL level, plus he can contribute in the short term as well as the long-term. Isn't that a far less risky proposition? And when you only have 1 pick in the top 30 in a weak draft, doesn't it make sense to make sure to minimise risk and get the guy you are 100% sure about?

His form at the championships may not have been dominant, but he was copping heavy tags from all accounts, and it takes time to learn to deal with that. Plus, you have to consider again the level of competition; there's far more depth in the midfield to fight against.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

I'm saying the jury is out on whether Kreuzer can ruck at AFL level. He is slightly undersized for a ruckman, and others have criticised his tapwork. He may have carried the Knights, but he was also playing against boys. There may not have been a single AFL starting standard ruckman amongst the group he played; statistically, you'd think it unlikely that more than 1 or 2 decent AFL ruckmen would come out of a single TAC cup comp. In the AFL, he's going to have to ruck against guys like Lade, Cox etc; they're all physical freaks (as he is), and it'll come down to smarts and technique. Neither of those are proven in his case.

Now we're talking about shoe-horning him into a forward position. Really? You draft the best player in the draft on his form as a ruckman, and make him play CHF? Doesn't that sound just a little bit risky to you?

As for Cotchin - he's a midfielder. He can slot straight into the team, as you point out, as a flanker who rotates for patches in the midfield. Eventually, he'll be somewhere between a good and great AFL midfielder. You can see exactly how and why he'll be successful at AFL level, plus he can contribute in the short term as well as the long-term. Isn't that a far less risky proposition? And when you only have 1 pick in the top 30 in a weak draft, doesn't it make sense to make sure to minimise risk and get the guy you are 100% sure about?

His form at the championships may not have been dominant, but he was copping heavy tags from all accounts, and it takes time to learn to deal with that. Plus, you have to consider again the level of competition; there's far more depth in the midfield to fight against.

He carried the Knights in a season where ruckmen went pretty deep.. he had (as the frontliner for the Knights blokes hanging off him all year...

Youre talking about the one serious competition Cotchin was in getting the heavy tag for 3 days and not coping???

The level of comprtition? Far more depth in the midfield to fight against?
They do rotate midfielders... he only played 3 representative gaes and 5 or something TACgames....

Kreuzer played the whole season as the 'go to man' in a year where ruck depth ran depper than most years...

so if he dominated his position all season... and the depth was better than most years for ruckman... you cant ask more than that can you???

 

[HBF]

Why not? With his pace and elite endurance i'd have thought there's every chance he COULD be moulded into a Richo style CHF - one who can actually kick.

Who said anything about elite endurance. I reckon he would spend about 50% of the game in the ruck, and then 50% down in the goal square, very rarely getting futher out from goals than about 30m.

Don't get his willingness to get to every contest whilst playing in the ruck and elite endurance get mixed up.

He'll never be a roaming CHF, never!

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Who said anything about elite endurance. I reckon he would spend about 50% of the game in the ruck, and then 50% down in the goal square, very rarely getting futher out from goals than about 30m.

Don't get his willingness to get to every contest whilst playing in the ruck and elite endurance get mixed up.

He'll never be a roaming CHF, never!

Why not???

Not smart enough...
Not capable...
Lacks the work ethic???
Why couldnt he do it???

 

[HBF]

Why not???

Not smart enough...
Not capable...
Lacks the work ethic???
Why couldnt he do it???

I'm actually not sure he has the athletisism and agility to play that position to be honest. The Knights had 2 other ruckman in Power and Fitzgerald that could have played in the ruck, and allowed Kreuzer to play that roaming CHF role.

Someone who is 200cm would have to be a freak to play in that position. Have a look at Gaertner from Dandenong. Would have to sharpen up his overall footballing skills to be able to do that, but he is the one that comes to mind about that roaming CHF.

One more point. The guy that Kreuzer has been most likened to - Josh Fraser - certainly does not play that position. Not even the great Dean Cox does it either, someone else Kreuzer has been likened to as well.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

I'm actually not sure he has the athletisism and agility to play that position to be honest. The Knights had 2 other ruckman in Power and Fitzgerald that could have played in the ruck, and allowed Kreuzer to play that roaming CHF role.

Someone who is 200cm would have to be a freak to play in that position. Have a look at Gaertner from Dandenong. Would have to sharpen up his overall footballing skills to be able to do that, but he is the one that comes to mind about that roaming CHF.

One more point. The guy that Kreuzer has been most likened to - Josh Fraser - certainly does not play that position. Not even the great Dean Cox does it either, someone else Kreuzer has been likened to as well.

Yeah but that doesnt mean Kreuzer can or cant.. it just means Fraser and Cox dont..

I actualy think Kreuzer has a very good chance at playing a few different kinds of roles.. He is extremely talented..very clever... and his draft results dont do him justice because he had been carrying a kee injury at the ar$e end of the TAC season.. and i dont think he recovered for the camp...

 

[HBF]

Yeah but that doesnt mean Kreuzer can or cant.. it just means Fraser and Cox dont..

I actualy think Kreuzer has a very good chance at playing a few different kinds of roles.. He is extremely talented..very clever... and his draft results dont do him justice because he had been carrying a kee injury at the ar$e end of the TAC season.. and i dont think he recovered for the camp...

Just can't see it myself. I reckon Hampson has more of a chance of filling that role of roaming CHF than Kreuzer does.