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Preview Kyle Reimers - Superstar or Superdud?
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ant555
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I see so your first post when you did not rate his kicking did not count ? or did it ?
All i know is you can talk in circles.
You did say you preferred Zaka or Melksham with the ball in hand, i have simply highlighted over a range of stats that all 3 are similar and if you watch games you would see it as well. All 3 are able to do really good stuff by foot one minute and then leave you wondering what they where thinking the next.
I remember the first time i saw Reimers at training and the thing that stood out to not just me but the group watching was how he did not miss many targets. His skills are very good but some of the decisions he makes are not.
Ant this shows what the article in the Scum about Champion data rankings show. You can prove what ever you want with stats. Over simplify and not be honest, or just incompetant, and yeah these bullcrap results are possible.
Good on you for pointing out the whole story.
Also everyone I've been a little harsh on Reimers in some respects. He clearly is very talented. I just want to see him maximise those talents. I really believe the difference of being a gun side and a very good side is nailing those picks in the 40s and above. Reimers, Hooker, TBell, Lonergan and Browne could be that for the club.
Good enough, but not good enough to coast.
Has a tendency to coast.
That is the paradox.
Has a tendency to coast.
That is the paradox.
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table tennis
Bigfooty class clown
I love it when someone takes on ant. Ant only generally argues pretty basic fact and not opinions, which is why we love him on here.
My opinion on riemers is that the less chest beating and more hard work will result in more consistent performance.
I think he could be the type of player that week in week out wins us games of footy with x factor qualities and excellent finishing skills.
Just needs to give himself enough in the tank to optimize his obvious talents, as i think he is a freak. He frustrates me to no end as I think he squibs contests, but towards the end of last year, he wasnt as guilty as previously.
He keeps improving. I think 2012 is breakout year for him
My opinion on riemers is that the less chest beating and more hard work will result in more consistent performance.
I think he could be the type of player that week in week out wins us games of footy with x factor qualities and excellent finishing skills.
Just needs to give himself enough in the tank to optimize his obvious talents, as i think he is a freak. He frustrates me to no end as I think he squibs contests, but towards the end of last year, he wasnt as guilty as previously.
He keeps improving. I think 2012 is breakout year for him
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My quote
The whole story you say Fish (Ones that relate to kicking accuracy)
Kicks to Advantage
Heppell 4.8 (22.4%) - Zaka 4.1 (20%) - Reimers 2.3 (21.6%)
Effective Disposal
Heppell 16.3 (76.2%) - Zaka 14.0 (68.3%) - Reimers 6.6 (61.9%)
Critical Errors (even though these can be by hand so not really a stat to use for just kicking)
Heppell 1.3 (6%) - Zaka 2.5 (12.2%) - Reimers 1.6 (15%)
Turnovers (Again can be done by foot, so not a stat you would use to determine kicking ability)
Heppell 5.2 (24.3%) - Zaka 6.8 (33.1%) - Reimers 4.2 (39.4%)
Skill Errors (Again could be by hand not foot)
Heppell 1.7 (7.9%) - Zaka 2.6 (12.68%) - Reimers 1.5 (14.1%)
Kicks Direct to Oppo
Heppell 0.9 (4.2%) - Zaka 1.6 (7.8%) - Reimers 0.9 (8.44%)
Disposal Efficiency
Heppell 74% - Zaka 69% - Reimers 67%
Okay the percentagers are all relative to how much footy they get, so the stats arnt twisted/maneuvered/altered/spun whatever word Ant wants to use.
Clearly my statement of id prefer the footy in Zaka and Heppells hands instead of Reimers not only was based on watching games but is backed up by stats aswell. When i made this comment it was coming from purely watching the essendon games, i was yet to even look at the stats. But nevertheless the stats back up my argument as can be seen above.
For some reason Ant wants me to use turnover, critical errors ect that may mean your turning the footy over by hand, not foot. This wouldnt make you a bad kick would it. So those stats im not too concerned about but still they lead to my argument. Heppell, Zaka both have much greater effectiveness in disposal than Reimers (shown above), they have higher efficiency in disposal from (herald sun http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/clubs/essendon), both Heppell and Zaka have less kicks direct to oppo than reimers. Heppell has the best kicking to adv on the 3, Zaka admittidly sits just behind Reimers by a percent. Both Zaka and Heppell turn the footy over much less than Reimers does. The same goes for skill errors and critical errors in which Reimers makes much more than the other 2 of.
Phew, glad thats out the way now we can all rest easy knowing Zaka and Heppell are better with the footy in their hands than Reimers as the stats show and from my view of watching the games last year which is backed up by the stats.
Feels like im doing a uni study/assignment in the holidays. Bloody hell who would have thought.
Reimers is more damaging, takes more risks. Heppell chipping around the back line means his stats are going to be higher. All good kicks.
yaco55
Hall of Famer
KA
You have done lots of research - This coming after saying that you give your opinion from gut feel ( watching games ) - Admit I often do it by gut feel - But think that the stats only tell part of the picture.
We need to look at difficulty of kick executed ( partially decision making ) - I am certain that if you looked up these stats for H.Slattery - he would rate highly - but that is because he primarily uses low risk chip kicks 20 to 30 metres.
Look at this scenario player dashing out of the centre - Wanted a pinpoint 30 metre pass ( which usually gives clear passage ) give me Zaharakis or Heppell
Player streaming out of the centre - Wanted a 50 metre pass over the defensive zone to a forward - would go Reimers/Jetta - actually Ryder is also good.
The 50 metre kick is more difficult than the 30 metre kick ( and it has greater hurt factor ) so we factor this into the equation.
Spent all of July 2008 in Melbourne - so watched a number of training sessions - produced a few training reports - remember writing at that time that Reimers and Fletcher had the best foot skills at training.
You have done lots of research - This coming after saying that you give your opinion from gut feel ( watching games ) - Admit I often do it by gut feel - But think that the stats only tell part of the picture.
We need to look at difficulty of kick executed ( partially decision making ) - I am certain that if you looked up these stats for H.Slattery - he would rate highly - but that is because he primarily uses low risk chip kicks 20 to 30 metres.
Look at this scenario player dashing out of the centre - Wanted a pinpoint 30 metre pass ( which usually gives clear passage ) give me Zaharakis or Heppell
Player streaming out of the centre - Wanted a 50 metre pass over the defensive zone to a forward - would go Reimers/Jetta - actually Ryder is also good.
The 50 metre kick is more difficult than the 30 metre kick ( and it has greater hurt factor ) so we factor this into the equation.
Spent all of July 2008 in Melbourne - so watched a number of training sessions - produced a few training reports - remember writing at that time that Reimers and Fletcher had the best foot skills at training.
I'm not sure why the stats have become such a big deal in this thread. It is pretty clear that no part of Reimers' game will stack up if you look at the stats, yet, he played every game from round 8 and would be a lock for round 1 selection in 2012.
There is only one stat that EFC will care about and it is tackles. The rest of Reimers' game is potential. It is clear as day that Kyle has the vision and skill to pull off some excellent passes. Whether or not the reports of Hird's dislike of Reimers have been exaggerated it is pretty clear that Reimers didn't have excellent skill we wouldn't persist with him because other parts of his game have been so suspect.
If you've watched him play you will recognise Reimers is a player of excellent skill. The consistent application of his skill is what he needs to develop.
I'd be amazed if young players are made or broken on the stats sheet. The job of recruiters is to use their skill to identify talent outside of the normal means otherwise clubs wouldn't waste money sending recruiters to "watch" players. It is how fans should aim to operate.
There is only one stat that EFC will care about and it is tackles. The rest of Reimers' game is potential. It is clear as day that Kyle has the vision and skill to pull off some excellent passes. Whether or not the reports of Hird's dislike of Reimers have been exaggerated it is pretty clear that Reimers didn't have excellent skill we wouldn't persist with him because other parts of his game have been so suspect.
If you've watched him play you will recognise Reimers is a player of excellent skill. The consistent application of his skill is what he needs to develop.
I'd be amazed if young players are made or broken on the stats sheet. The job of recruiters is to use their skill to identify talent outside of the normal means otherwise clubs wouldn't waste money sending recruiters to "watch" players. It is how fans should aim to operate.
ant555
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Ok i said Melksham and not Heppell. That does make a difference as Heppell is better.
Well done though, you have just proven what i had already said and that is the other 2 are mid range and can do very good stuff followed by WTF stuff.
And i do not want to use use any one stat
Read what i have said FFS i said you need to use a combination of all stats as well as seeing the games !!!And secondly i was using the same stats page as you . All i did was pull the stats from the same site so the comparisons where the same. You started using that sites stats page not me !
Keystone agony said:
Talk about putting words in peoples mouths !
Oh and by the way you did say you prefer the ball in Heppell or Zakas hands, well you have 2 options when the ball is in their hands so the stats are relevent anyway.
Watch the first quarter of the Bulldogs game in round 21 or 22. Reimers nails several bullet passes to players inside 50 and kicks a goal from the boundary 49 meters out. Reimers can be a bloody good kick and as good as anyone in the side when he produces his best.
Watch a couple of his passes in the Geelong game mid season as well.
Proof is in the watching and there is no way you can spin anything, twist peoples words, accuse them of wanting you to use flawed stats etc.
Yes he can be bad but he can also be as good as anyone in the side, just ask anyone at the club.
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Like your last sentence ANT i certainly stated that he is very hit and miss and not many can disagree with that. Sometimes he can be bloody brillant and i didnt get to watch the Geelong vs Ess game and you also gave another example against the dogs of his brillance by foot. But at the other end of the scale he has those stinking games.
No good trying to do something your not capable of by foot or trying a pass that is beyond his ability even if he is a good kick. Ask melbourne/Brisbane supporters about Travis Johnstone, elite kick at training when no pressure is on he will hit a target. Give him pressure and his thinking of trying to make the impossible pass on too many occasions like Reimers and more often than not they dont work, no good.
ANT you dont seem to be understanding that me making a comment ala "prefer ball in hands of Heppell/Zaka" or "i dont rate Reimers kicking and decision making" was coming from watching games. It was than backed up by stats. I watch plenty of Essendon.
No good trying to do something your not capable of by foot or trying a pass that is beyond his ability even if he is a good kick. Ask melbourne/Brisbane supporters about Travis Johnstone, elite kick at training when no pressure is on he will hit a target. Give him pressure and his thinking of trying to make the impossible pass on too many occasions like Reimers and more often than not they dont work, no good.
ANT you dont seem to be understanding that me making a comment ala "prefer ball in hands of Heppell/Zaka" or "i dont rate Reimers kicking and decision making" was coming from watching games. It was than backed up by stats. I watch plenty of Essendon.
Yeah, I'd agree Reimers and Travis Johnstone are similar in that they're both "outside" players who possess nice skills. Travis Johnstone was a #1 draft pick though - and much more heralded (and liked). Reimers I guess is someone many love to hate.
And there are similarities as for what's going on between the ears, and both are reported to have drifted along on talent. The difference is age: Reimers is 22 years old - and I think he's just starting to mature as a player, and is realizing what it means to make it. It seemed to be last pre-season it dawned on him that he had to up his work-rate and professionalism. The Emma Quayle article showed he went out of his way to seek advice from his coaches. And in his defense he was obviously listening to the criticism and coaches and started becoming more and more of a team player.
The realization of the hard work involved seemed to have come too late for Johnstone, but I think Reimers will make it as his age is on his side. Reimers over the last few years seemed to win a game on his own boot one week, and not be sighted for the next three. I think (hope) with maturity we'll see more consistent player week in and week out. At his best I believe he is easily best 22.
And there are similarities as for what's going on between the ears, and both are reported to have drifted along on talent. The difference is age: Reimers is 22 years old - and I think he's just starting to mature as a player, and is realizing what it means to make it. It seemed to be last pre-season it dawned on him that he had to up his work-rate and professionalism. The Emma Quayle article showed he went out of his way to seek advice from his coaches. And in his defense he was obviously listening to the criticism and coaches and started becoming more and more of a team player.
The realization of the hard work involved seemed to have come too late for Johnstone, but I think Reimers will make it as his age is on his side. Reimers over the last few years seemed to win a game on his own boot one week, and not be sighted for the next three. I think (hope) with maturity we'll see more consistent player week in and week out. At his best I believe he is easily best 22.
HurleyTheFuture
Club Legend
I wouldnt mind that much if Reimers had the same out put as Johnstone, I quite liked him although was a bit inconsisitent
yaco55
Hall of Famer
I would be more than happy if Reimers reaches Johnstone's level.
Although Johnstone is more of a pure midfielder.
Although Johnstone is more of a pure midfielder.
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I think Reimers suffers from his early style and brain fades. I thought he took some pretty big steps forward this year and started to play some nice, consistent football.
One to watch in 2012 and I think has flair and pace along with good skills that could see him lock down the forward pocket/mid rotation spot in the first 22.
If you watch early footage of Stevie J he makes a lot of mistakes and dumb decisions. Has come good now and is heralded as THE prototype and I still think that Reimers could become a similarly good player. I still don't see how Melksham gets the heaped on praise while Reimers the scorn considering they are about level on most stats and decision making.
Perception is everything...
One to watch in 2012 and I think has flair and pace along with good skills that could see him lock down the forward pocket/mid rotation spot in the first 22.
If you watch early footage of Stevie J he makes a lot of mistakes and dumb decisions. Has come good now and is heralded as THE prototype and I still think that Reimers could become a similarly good player. I still don't see how Melksham gets the heaped on praise while Reimers the scorn considering they are about level on most stats and decision making.
Perception is everything...
table tennis
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Because melksham is 19 and reimers 21.... That's the difference
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With Reimers coming off contract at the end of 2012, it will have to be a big year for him. If he can maintain some form of consistency, we may have a very potent forward half with Crameri and Hurley the marking targets and Reimers and Davey the roving smalls, each capable of the spectacular.
What does everyone expect from him in 2012?
I would love to see him back up his 2011 (27 goals from 15 games, ave 10.6 possessions) and possibly even improve on these stats.
What does everyone expect from him in 2012?
I would love to see him back up his 2011 (27 goals from 15 games, ave 10.6 possessions) and possibly even improve on these stats.
Seeing just about the one time he wasn't tagged in his prime years the other team were accused of tanking says a lot about how good Johnstone was.
I'd like to see him playing up the field a bit more so averaging something around 18 disposals with a similar goal tally. Asking quite a bit but I think he's capable.
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If I was going on pure stats then maybe 20+ goals and 15+ possessions per game would be brilliant.. Maybe top those 15 games as well..
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ant555
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I understand perfectly. I agree on Heppell but i was a fan of his for 2 years in the TAC Cup. As for Zaka v Reimers, pretty similar in my opinion.
I just think your are wrong as far as his kicking goes and any comments on stats where simply because only one stat was being produced to make a point.
If Reimers got involved as often as Zaha does there would be no issue. Both very damaging kicks when they're on (without having that mechanical consistency like a Heppell), Zaha just gets that much more of it.
Absolutely. Does some things that (in isolation) look incredibly stupid, plays with absolutely no limitations - he'll try anything. Again comes down to quantity, he'll do something that doesn't work (looks idiotic) one minute then something that comes off (looks great) the next - Reimers needs to keep those efforts up.
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Sorry for bumping old thread, but what do you guys think of reimers? No news of him signing another contract and i believe he is out of contract at the end of this year? surely we wont delist him? Will he ever get a game or string more than 2 games in a row ever again?
yaco55
Hall of Famer
Expect that Reimers has already signed with another club.
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