Lehmann gets 5

[JUBJUB]

Originally posted by Bakes
Can someone please explain to me what he said!?! PLEASE!

The Herald-Sun has had two versions of what he is suppose to have said when he got back into the dressing rooms.
On friday it was " black bas***ds".On Saturday it was "black c**ts".

Isn't it a bit odd that he's suspended,yet he can still play state cricket ?

 

[shiva25]

Originally posted by Zombie
He should have got a fine for abusive language and left it at that, his comments were neither racist nor overly offensive. 5 matches is just ridiculous, just what the ICC wanted before the WC, lets find a white guy to make a scapegoat out of.

Sri Lankans are renowned for their racist remarks, Zimbabwe is a nation run by a murderous racist government yet the ICC have no problem with these situations, doesn't fit their 'lets blame it on the white man' image I guess.

And the funny thing is that Lehmann shouldn't have been out in the first place, the action replay frame that first showed the bails to be raised from the stumps clearly show that he had made his ground.

You have got to be kidding!Walking in the dressing room yelling out "Black ****s" is about as racist and as offensive as you can get and Lehmann should have known better not to comment loudly for everyone to hear.Like Mal Speed said there is no place for racist comments in professional sport and as far as i am concerned he got what he deserved.
Sure enough Lehmann wasnt out but it was the umpires that gave him out so why did he choose to direct his comments at the Sri Lankans?

 

[EagleBlue]

Originally posted by JUBJUB
The Herald-Sun has had two versions of what he is suppose to have said when he got back into the dressing rooms.
On friday it was " black bas***ds".On Saturday it was "black c**ts".

Isn't it a bit odd that he's suspended,yet he can still play state cricket ?

Yeah whats the deal with that ????? Can he play for the Redbacks or is he ineligible until his suspenson is lifted ?????

 

[Darky]

Originally posted by EagleBlue
Yeah whats the deal with that ????? Can he play for the Redbacks or is he ineligible until his suspenson is lifted ?????

The media has announced his penalty as 5 ODIs, and hasn't mentioned anything about domestic games.

Lehmann is not playing in the Shield game vs Queensland which started this morning.

I would have thought that if not disqualified from playing, he'd be rushed into the side, given :
a) his lay-off through injury would require some urgent match conditioning before the World Cup
b) SA's inept performance with the bat in last week's ING Cup game vs Queensland.

 

[oh_my_hat]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but what penalty did Shaun Pollock for the head grabbing incident about 6 weeks ago against these same Sri Lankans? BTW I think the Lehmann penalty is about right but Pollock grabbed a Sri Lankan batsman but the helmet in frustration and squeezed his head after the batsman scored a boundary off a top-edged hook shot.

Can anyone update me with this one?

 

[Angus1]

Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
IF Lehmann had said the same words directly to the Sri Lankans on the field, he should have has the book thrown at him. However, he didn't, as it was said in the dressing room to no one (ie. to himself in fustration). Unfortunately it was overheard by Lloyd. An apology should have been enough given it was not a personal attack - certainly the Sri Lankans were happy with this - but Mal Speed (the same guy who covered up the Mark Waugh weather report issues) wanted to make an example of him. Would Ranatunga or Ganguly be treated the same if the shoe was on the other foot?

The whole thing has been blown out of proportion. It was nothing. A bloke is angry and yells out in the dressing room. Not to an opposition player but just in frustration to himself. That should be the end of it.
Far worse things have happened on the cricket ground and have gone unpunished.

Lehmann is a scapegoat.

 

[Wicked Lester]

While I believe a suspension/punishment of some kind was warranted I find the ICC's action amidst the backdrop of supporting the playing of matches in cricket's showcase tournament in Zimbabwe (where rampant discrimation based on race and political beliefs and where a large number of citizens are starving to death) absurd to say the least.

It seems the ICC are willing to play tough only when the political fallout will be minimal.

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by JUBJUB

Isn't it a bit odd that he's suspended,yet he can still play state cricket ?

Well Hershell Gibbs continued to play domestic cricket after recieving an international suspension for recieving bookie payments.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Agree with you shiva ... what he said was about as offensive as he could go with using the "n" word.

And as far as us white folk using terms like "level playing field" and "same scrutiny" and such, well, of course these things should exist. But you also have to remember, most of us white folk don't find it particularly offensive to have the prefix "white" tacked onto the start of an insult. i.e. we have not undergone the prejudice and submission based on us being "white" - it's just not a thing for us. So we can't just criticise those of color for being too "thin-skinned", or "weak", or "soft", or whatever you want to say for reacting to such taunts about skin color - We (white folks) haven't had to deal with it as being used as a weapon against us.

I'm no great campaigner for social justice, or anything like that, but let's not be naive and narrow-minded here.

I had this discussion with an old neighbour recently, who fought in the war, and likes to have a dig at the kooris etc. whenever he can. He just can't see why they get so fired up over "coon/abo/boong" type words - sticks and stones, he says, and all that jazz. But when I tried something out by calling him a coward, in reference to a story he once told me about an incident in the war, he just about went me with his garden shovel. All of a sudden verbal taunts had an impact with him. I apologised to him - he's still a good mate - and he grudgingly took my point.

Different issues affect different folks differently ...

And if Lehmann has been a "scapegoat", then so be it. He crossed the line, and has been punished accordingly. However, I'd be more inclined to use the term an "example", or a "precedent" to describe the guy.

 

[sandeano]

Here is a view from India's "The Hindu Newspaper" in which the correspondent is all over the place in trying to paint Australia as not so much a racist nation, but one that is so ignorant as to not notice the cruelty in their words and actions....

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2003011902501900.htm

An Aussie finally gets his comeuppance

By Ted Corbett


ADELAIDE Jan. 18. Darren Lehmann was given a record five-match ban for his outburst against the Sri Lankans after a three-hour hearing in which he was saved from a maximum eight-match suspension by the warm words spoken about him by, of all people, three Sri Lankans on Saturday.

Afterwards the Australian batsman was `devastated' at the ban according to his lawyer Greg Griffin but, as he left in a hurry for the christening of his twins he must also have felt he was lucky his career was still intact.

Malcolm Speed, chief executive of ICC, who laid the charge, claimed he had contemplated making the accusation much more severe, leaving Lehmann facing a life ban.

Griffin, who makes a living from dealing with the legal affairs of high profile South Australian sportsmen, said that there were no further implications for Lehmann, that he would keep his World Cup place, that he would continue as South Australian and Yorkshire captain because of the high regard in which he was held.

"Darren is gratified that he was highly spoken of by the Sri Lankan witnesses,'' said Griffin. "This incident will be seen for what it is - an unfortunate outburst to no one in particular. Basically, it was made to a wall.''

The Sri Lankans had been reluctant from the start to see Lehmann banned and on Saturday Dav Whatmore, the coach, his assistant Duleep Mendis and the manager Ajit Jayasekara all emphasised his qualities. "They said they wanted to play cricket against him,'' said Griffin.

Clive Lloyd, the match referee and sole judge in this tribunal, said he had been influenced by Lehmann's reputation even though his remarks had been `deeply offensive.'

A seedy city


No one suspected that underneath Lehmann's jolly exterior lurked a man who might call Sri Lankan cricketers `black ----s' but perhaps he simply reflects the city in which he grew up.

Adelaide is a bizarre mixture of 19th century values, old money and beautiful churches on the outside and seediness just under the surface.

Lehmann's hearing took place in a posh hotel on garish Hindley Street where almost anything, both legal and beneath contempt, is for sale.

Yet, it is only a mile from Adelaide Oval, the ground protected by planning restrictions, lying in the shadow of Adelaide Cathedral. Anyway, that seems to have dealt with racism in cricket, doesn't it?

Was there ever any racism, apart from a few morons on the Western Terrace at Leeds, and Bay 13 in Melbourne chanting their obscenities at Viv Richards or Imran Khan.

Besides the old Terrace has been pulled down and replaced by a bright new stand, and Bay 13 has vanished, so that's problem solved, isn't it? Not exactly.

The last time I ventured past the same gorilla grunts rang out whenever a black player touched the ball. Of course, they are just the vulgar people. Among their betters, in the educated classes, there's not a scent of racism.

Oh, no. I was at Lord's for a major one-day final when a batsman - still famous years after his death - shouted: "for the first time, not one of them, not a single one.'' He meant that only white players would take part in the final.

That was generational; those born before 1940 saw racism as patriotism. British is best, every Johnny Foreigner is our inferior. I know another great player of yesteryear who says such sentences as "I'm not a racist - except for so-and-so.''

One of the elite West Indies fast bowlers rubbed the skin of his brown forearm one day and told me: "this is the most influential factor in cricket.''

You would like me to name these men and perhaps I should; but they are mostly honest and decent; the trouble begins because few cricketers understand racism.

The least appetising defence I heard of Lehmann's outburst was that, "we've all done it. He just happened to be caught. It's all political anyway.''

The excuses offered for Lehmann are, in part, ignorance of the way the world beyond the cricket village has progressed, in part due to Australian arrogance, developed miles from the busy hub of the world.

That mindset believes that the Aussie way is the only way. You sledge a man on the field, call him foul names; and that is acceptable if you hand him a beer when play ends. This arrogance extends to the no balling of Muttiah Muralitharan and the failure to see that Brett Lee could possibly be guilty. It takes in the belief that sledging the Sri Lankans is fine and that the response led by Arjuna Ranatunga is a disgrace.

It produces huge crowds to witness the destruction of England or South Africa; it is reflected in the constant repetition of their theme song Go Aussie Go even when England plays Sri Lanka, the gratuitous insults from taxi drivers; the reiteration of anti-Pom jokes in the newspapers.

Happily, the era of Australian dominance is almost finished. Its team is crumbling, its selectors are making mistakes, the current crop of players are dispirited and bewildered that one of their kind has been damned as a racist.

But he's an Aussie, mate. What's he done wrong? A bit of a go at the Lankans! Not the end of the world, mate, is it! It will take a while to convince me that we took a step forward on Saturday morning.

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by sandeano
Here is a view from India's "The Hindu Newspaper" in which the correspondent is all over the place in trying to paint Australia as not so much a racist nation, but one that is so ignorant as to not notice the cruelty in their words and actions....

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2003011902501900.htm

An Aussie finally gets his comeuppance

[SNIP - Aussie bashing, blah, blah, blah]

I especially like how its a total crime for any Australian to say something derogatory about anything/one foreign, but elsewhere people are more than happy to pillory Australia about anything and everything.

 

[sandeano]

Originally posted by DaveW
I especially like how its a total crime for any Australian to say something derogatory about anything/one foreign, but elsewhere people are more than happy to pillory Australia about anything and everything.

Yes, the irony was not lost on me. The writer has a whinge about we nasty Aussies...then proceeds to denigrate our country and its people.

 

[Becker]

Ian Chappell and Colin Croft has been banned now, has Malcolm Speed gone mad? In the words of Basil Fawlty ... "This is exactly the way Nazi Germany started".

 

[Groucho]

Originally posted by sandeano
Yes, the irony was not lost on me. The writer has a whinge about we nasty Aussies...then proceeds to denigrate our country and its people.

Not a bad article but he does indulge in some cultural generalisations about Australians which is contrary to the initial part of his piece. After listening to talk-back radio, and reading responses on this forum, sadly those generalisations seem justified.

 

[sandeano]

Originally posted by Groucho
Not a bad article but he does indulge in some cultural generalisations about Australians which is contrary to the initial part of his piece. After listening to talk-back radio, and reading responses on this forum, sadly those generalisations seem justified.

Indeed true, however the writer lost me when he came to the defence of Arjuna Ranatunga, one of the most unlikebale and least sporting captains ever to grace the cricket field.

 

[scmods]

Originally posted by sandeano
Indeed true, however the writer lost me when he came to the defence of Arjuna Ranatunga, one of the most unlikebale and least sporting captains ever to grace the cricket field.

Racist!

 

[RogerC]

Well, no, Scmods. I appreciate that it was just a dig, but it helps to perpetuate the confusion surrounding this issue. Ranatunga was an intensely dislikeable captain, and there's no problem in articulating the idea. It, however, you insinuate that it's Because He's Black, you're in breach.

Same deal with what Lehmann did. If Lehmann had stormed into the dressing room shouting at the top of his voice "That Farking Arsshole" or similar, it wouldn't make a shred of difference who he was referring to - the crux of the issue is the juxtaposition of Black and C***. Simple as that - as soon as you bring a racial generalisation into it, you're in trouble.

It's not a difficult concept, this one. The penalites had been spelt out in advance, the obscenity was audible and demonstrably racist, and from there it's simply a matter of connecting A to B. The ICC would have been in bigger trouble if they had not acted on it. And now we have a precedent to work from. If it improves behaviour on the field, then so much the better. (I hope it does)

But if Australians whinge and moan that "It only happens to us", we're back where we started.

It's easy for us whites to rant about overpolicing and storm in a teacup etc. When's the last time we were the oppressed race? How can we possibly know how damaging such comments can be? Even when directed the other way (from black to white) I think we are comfortable enough in our cocoon of 'superiority' to let it wash over us.

Racism is a tricky issue. Especially in the last couple of years. But the more tolerant we try to be, the more we try to see the issue form the other side, and the more vigilant we are in assuring the casual racism does not permeate what we do, the better chance all creeds, cultures and colors have of getting along. But if we continue along the line of 'Look what They're getting away with!', the harder the road will be.

 

[Groucho]

Very well articulated RogerC!

 

[jim boy]

Originally posted by RogerC
Well, no, Scmods. I appreciate that it was just a dig, but it helps to perpetuate the confusion surrounding this issue. Ranatunga was an intensely dislikeable captain, and there's no problem in articulating the idea. It, however, you insinuate that it's Because He's Black, you're in breach.

Same deal with what Lehmann did. If Lehmann had stormed into the dressing room shouting at the top of his voice "That Farking Arsshole" or similar, it wouldn't make a shred of difference who he was referring to - the crux of the issue is the juxtaposition of Black and C***. Simple as that - as soon as you bring a racial generalisation into it, you're in trouble.

It's not a difficult concept, this one. The penalites had been spelt out in advance, the obscenity was audible and demonstrably racist, and from there it's simply a matter of connecting A to B. The ICC would have been in bigger trouble if they had not acted on it. And now we have a precedent to work from. If it improves behaviour on the field, then so much the better. (I hope it does)

But if Australians whinge and moan that "It only happens to us", we're back where we started.

It's easy for us whites to rant about overpolicing and storm in a teacup etc. When's the last time we were the oppressed race? How can we possibly know how damaging such comments can be? Even when directed the other way (from black to white) I think we are comfortable enough in our cocoon of 'superiority' to let it wash over us.

Racism is a tricky issue. Especially in the last couple of years. But the more tolerant we try to be, the more we try to see the issue form the other side, and the more vigilant we are in assuring the casual racism does not permeate what we do, the better chance all creeds, cultures and colors have of getting along. But if we continue along the line of 'Look what They're getting away with!', the harder the road will be.

While I agree with you in terms of that what Lehmann said was racist, I believe that 'punishment' meted out has inappropriate and not helpful. This is because to address racism you have to educate, not marginalise. Punishments are handed out to deter, not to educate. If someone gets unfairly dismissed, they may feel tempted to smash the stumps and hurl their bat halfway across the field (I know I do). You don't do that though because you'll be punished. And really, there is nothing wrong with having that temptation. But racism is different. Racism needs to addressed so that there is no temptation, not because of fear of punishment, but because it simply does not occur to you. By banning Lehmann, you only make him think twice about such behaviour, but it doesn't change him, it doen't educate, it just establishes a grudge. It also establishes a bit of a grudge amongst the followers of cricket. You only have to look through some of the comments on this thread to see that some resentment was nurtured by the actions of the ICC.

 

[wagstaff]

Originally posted by DaveW
I especially like how its a total crime for any Australian to say something derogatory about anything/one foreign, but elsewhere people are more than happy to pillory Australia about anything and everything.

The English and the Australian press are virtually the same, the only difference being that the English have an unsuccessful cricket side to write about (and hence make an artform of bagging them), while the Australian media have a successful side to write about (and hence make an artform of treating them like Gods).

If the English cricket side were as good as the Australian side were, the English press would be just as obnoxious and jingoistic as the Austrailan media are now. Why would anyone expect anything different; after all, the same people own much of the media in both countries.

 

[sandeano]

Jimboy, if Lehmann is unaware with his age and experience thjat his comments were hurtful, no amount of counselling is going to alter his view. In fact he is probably now thinking that Clive Lloyd is a 'black ****' for the punishment meted out to him.

Their is no crime for 'thinking' racist thoughts - however it is when you make them public that trouble arises. I would suggest that the next time Boof is run out by a player of a dark skin he will think all sorts of nasty things....but will hold his tongue and say nothing.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Seems to me Jimboy that this grudge was already fairly well entrenched - it just took an incident such as this for it to manifest itself throughout a thread.

Gotta agree, Groucho ... very nicely articulated RogerC.

 

[Aussie-Basher]

Originally posted by wagstaff
The English and the Australian press are virtually the same, the only difference being that the English have an unsuccessful cricket side to write about (and hence make an artform of bagging them), while the Australian media have a successful side to write about (and hence make an artform of treating them like Gods).

If the English cricket side were as good as the Australian side were, the English press would be just as obnoxious and jingoistic as the Austrailan media are now. Why would anyone expect anything different; after all, the same people own much of the media in both countries.

The difference is that the English press has so much more to write about than cricket ......

 

[PrideofSA]

Originally posted by Aussie-Basher
The difference is that the English press has so much more to write about than cricket ......

Yeh like where Prince William is or how much pot Harry is smoking.

 

[Aussie-Basher]

Originally posted by PrideofSA
Yeh like where Prince William is or how much pot Harry is smoking.

...... how many British newspapers have you read ....... EVER?
Anyone with any experience would know that Britain has three world class papers.


Glad you mentioned the royal family. Most Brits are also less concerned than people outside Britain (in my experience).

Interestingly enough - I was shocked to see how much chat there is on these boards about the royal family!!!!!!!!!

To return to my original comment - in my opinion - cricket plays less importance to British culture than Australian culture. Further - sport in general.

So much stuff out there - politics, literature, film, other sports - to worry about what whether Ronnie Irani goes for 12 an over (disappointing as that is!!!!)