Society/Culture Lest we forget

[Lance Uppercut]

My opinion of Ali would have been a lot higher had he gone to Vietnam. You can't expect a punch drunk fool to make rational decisions though. He was but a puppet, with powerful people pulling his strings. Tell me one group in Australia currently though who have similar grounds to refuse to fight? Tell me who in Australia could honestly think they have as rough end of the stick as African Americans in this time period? Answer to the rhetorical question - nobody.

that's pathetic. When Ali made the decision to object to fighting "brown people" he had no quarrel with, he was perfectly within his senses. You are being unbelievably patronising trying to transpose his current state with him in the '70s. Where do you get off rubbishing his rational ethical beliefs to fit in with your narrow minded argument? Unbelievable!

The war in Vietnam was a war about ideology. The Vietnamese posed NO danger to Australia. Therefore, we were not defending our homeland. We were conscripted by our government, to travel to a war & invade a country that had nothing to do with us.

You sneer at conscientious objectors. I sneer at you.

In fact, I pity you. Think for yourself FFS. "Your country will decide what's best for you". What a ****ing limp wristed bullshit statement to make. You must be some kind of autonomous unthinking nationalist drone who believes that every government decree must be obeyed.

I pity you.

So, if the government of the day - the "country", as you call it - decide you should pay 80% tax, is that fair? LOL! Go for it!

That an ideology you do not believe in can be forced on you under pain of imprisonment is a disgrace. That you must, despite your personal morality, invade another sovereign state and brutally kill their soldiers, citizens, women & children; despite them having posed no threat to you & yours, and you having no disagreement with them, is a disgrace. That, based solely on the day you were born, that you must violate your own deeply held moral beliefs based on the whim of a foreign power, is a disgrace.

I don't respect your opinion on this matter. Not one bit.

You ask which groups have grounds to refuse. I ask you, what foreign government has the right to demand that I fight their proxy battles? That I must kill people I have no quarrel with, for a meaningless strategic game played by politicians in their comfortable quarters who have no concept of the suffering of the common man. The Great Game. That I should violate deeply held beliefs at the whim of a 60 year old politician who is sucking the arse of another 60 year old politician. Yet you would.

You imbecile. You sucker. You are the puppet. Defend your homeland when it's needed. Don't invade others on the flimsy premise of ideology then try & belittle those that, unlike you, have the courage of their convictions.

 

[bit_pattern]

Pwnage 101

 

[skilts]

that's pathetic. When Ali made the decision to object to fighting "brown people" he had no quarrel with, he was perfectly within his senses. You are being unbelievably patronising trying to transpose his current state with him in the '70s. Where do you get off rubbishing his rational ethical beliefs to fit in with your narrow minded argument? Unbelievable!

The war in Vietnam was a war about ideology. The Vietnamese posed NO danger to Australia. Therefore, we were not defending our homeland. We were conscripted by our government, to travel to a war & invade a country that had nothing to do with us.

You sneer at conscientious objectors. I sneer at you.

In fact, I pity you. Think for yourself FFS. "Your country will decide what's best for you". What a ****ing limp wristed bullshit statement to make. You must be some kind of autonomous unthinking nationalist drone who believes that every government decree must be obeyed.

I pity you.

So, if the government of the day - the "country", as you call it - decide you should pay 80% tax, is that fair? LOL! Go for it!

That an ideology you do not believe in can be forced on you under pain of imprisonment is a disgrace. That you must, despite your personal morality, invade another sovereign state and brutally kill their soldiers, citizens, women & children; despite them having posed no threat to you & yours, and you having no disagreement with them, is a disgrace. That, based solely on the day you were born, that you must violate your own deeply held moral beliefs based on the whim of a foreign power, is a disgrace.

I don't respect your opinion on this matter. Not one bit.

You ask which groups have grounds to refuse. I ask you, what foreign government has the right to demand that I fight their proxy battles? That I must kill people I have no quarrel with, for a meaningless strategic game played by politicians in their comfortable quarters who have no concept of the suffering of the common man. The Great Game. That I should violate deeply held beliefs at the whim of a 60 year old politician who is sucking the arse of another 60 year old politician. Yet you would.

You imbecile. You sucker. You are the puppet. Defend your homeland when it's needed. Don't invade others on the flimsy premise of ideology then try & belittle those that, unlike you, have the courage of their convictions.

You beat me to it. I was just about to post exactly that.

A couple of facts of interest though. No conscripts were sent to Vietnam without their consent. They were conscripted to perform National Service, not serve overseas. The usual reasons for conscripts volunteering to go there, were that they would get a cheap home loan when and if they came back, and their mates were all going. The decision by these people to volunteer to serve in Vietnam is equalled in the 20th Cent. only by Hitler's decision to declare war on the US after Japan bombed Pearl Harbour. Different scale of stupidity, but just as profound.

Also, it is not commonly understood that those who didn't register for the draft were rarely, if ever, pursued by the full force of the law, unless they made a song and dance about their non-compliance with that law. The standing of the government of the day was so putrid, the last thing they wanted to do was to make more enemies, by prosecuting those who disagreed with their policies.

The internationality of Remembrance Day may appeal to some, but for me, it will always be the first day of WW2. BTW, of all the wars in which Australia has been involved since Federation (let's not count them), WW2 is the only one in which it could possibly be argued that Australia's national security was in danger.

 

[bit_pattern]

The internationality of Remembrance Day may appeal to some, but for me, it will always be the first day of WW2.

Yeah, I can buy that

I was just trying to make up for my ANZAC Day thread (plus I heard the bugle bein played at 11:00 this morning and wanted to be first off the rank)

 

[Fuzzy Wuzzy Bear]

If I was a current soldier I would get out. Who knows when you'll be fighting a Jews war for them.

 

[Blight von Torp]

"No Vietcong ever called me ******"

"No, I am not going 10,000 miles to help murder kill and burn other people to simply help continue the domination of white slavemasters over dark people the world over. This is the day and age when such evil injustice must come to an end."
—Muhammad Ali

What a great man.

 

[skilts]

Yeah, I can buy that

I was just trying to make up for my ANZAC Day thread (plus I heard the bugle bein played at 11:00 this morning and wanted to be first off the rank)

It seems you were caught up in the emotion of the whole thing. You should think yourself lucky you didn't turn twenty in the late 60s/early 70s. We may not be having this conversation. That would be a demonstrable loss for a lot of people, me included.

The draft dodgers may have been arseholes to some, but to me, that most of them survived the war has made possible some interesting conversations over the years. I rarely hear from those friends who were killed in Vietnam, or those who have committed suicide since. Of the ones who survive, so many are suffering such damage that it makes you wish you'd been there too.

Have a ****ed life. It's such fun. Better still, build an aura around people who go off to kill others, so a gung-ho attitude trickles down through the generations. There are people having children now, who will imbue their kids with the glory to be had by serving their country, killing people with whom they have no quarrel. This glorious state of affairs could last well-past the middle of this century. As long as the dreaded spectre of thinking is repressed, Australia will be there.

 

[mantis]

What a great man.

Yes he was & great that he had the guts to stand up against his war mongering country.

My Grandfather was a conscientous objector in world war 1. He moved from SA to Victoria & changed his name, to this day we still don't know what his real name is. He was also a socialist & the Secretary of the the Plumbers, Carpenters Union.

He was also a gifted artist, who went to the Heidelberg school of art.

 

[bit_pattern]

It seems you were caught up in the emotion of the whole thing. You should think yourself lucky you didn't turn twenty in the late 60s/early 70s. We may not be having this conversation. That would be a demonstrable loss for a lot of people, me included.

The draft dodgers may have been arseholes to some, but to me, that most of them survived the war has made possible some interesting conversations over the years. I rarely hear from those friends who were killed in Vietnam, or those who have committed suicide since. Of the ones who survive, so many are suffering such damage that it makes you wish you'd been there too.

Have a ****ed life. It's such fun. Better still, build an aura around people who go off to kill others, so their gung-ho attitude trickles down through the generations. There are people having children now, who will imbue their kids with the glory to be had by serving their country, killing people with whom they have no quarrel. This glorious state of affairs could last well-past the middle of this century. As long as the dreaded spectre of thinking is repressed, Australia will be there.

Have some strong feelings about teh subject, do we?

But, fwiw, I came from draft-dodging hippie stock (well, I would have done but dad luckily missed the birthday lottery, and I'm sure he'd roll in his grave if he saw mw start this thread) who were heavily involved in the Moratorium. I generally despise nationalist outpourings that are associated with remembrance dates, but I do think that the original meaning of Armistace Day is worthy, it celebrated the end of war, and it is an international date.

That being said, I do kind of wish I'd had Mantis' thought first and started the same thread but refered to the dismissal, would have been solid gold trolling potential

 

[BigBadCam]

I rate my value as an individual way too highly.

At the end of the day, you are a pawn of the government. When your government calls on you, you are more than likely an expendable piece. Depending what you do for a living you might be a better piece than a pawn. Those pieces you hang on to. Those pieces you don't send to war. You are just a number and you work to make more numbers. You pay taxes on those numbers. Other people are numbers. The healthcare system makes them healthy so that they can do more with their life and improve the strength of the nation. The education system tries to educate them so that they can make more money and improve the strength of the nation. Arts and entertainment try to make people happy so that they make more money to improve the strength of the nation. We don't take a whole lot of unskilled migrants because they offer little to the strength of our nation. You are an individual amongst many individuals. Together as a collective, all the individuals make Australia. That's just how it is.

If I was a current soldier I would get out. Who knows when you'll be fighting a Jews war for them.

I'm too old now and football injuries have caught up with me, but I considered becoming a Jew and moving to Israel when I was younger. If you're less than 24 they'll pay for you to move to Israel and join the IDF. Sounded like a bit of an adventure, and my grandmother's family was Jewish so it wouldn't have been to hard. It wouldn't surprise me though if the US back a Jewish invasion of Iran in the not too distant future, and because of our ANZUS alliance and the debt we owe them, we'll be there too. Of course there will be Jewish money makers behind the scenes telling people what to do.

WW2 is the only one in which it could possibly be argued that Australia's national security was in danger.

There were more bombs dropped on Darwin than were dropped on Pearl Harbour. It is interesting to note too that following the attack on Pearl Harbour, Australian troops were fighting in North Africa and the British wanted to use our troops to defend their interests in in India and stop the Japanese moving through Burma. After all, their fortress at Singapore was never going to fall... Curtin stood up to the Brits and brought our troops home. Makes me proud to be an Australian.

 

[medusala]

The war in Vietnam was a war about ideology. The Vietnamese posed NO danger to Australia.

The Vietnamese were the proxies of others. Given Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Laos etc etc it is not hard to present a case that Australia's interests were threatened.

Therefore, we were not defending our homeland.

Nor were the Poms in the vast majority of cases in WWII.

We were conscripted by our government, to travel to a war & invade a country that had nothing to do with us.

As above.

You sneer at conscientious objectors. I sneer at you.

In fact, I pity you. Think for yourself FFS. "Your country will decide what's best for you". What a ****ing limp wristed bullshit statement to make. You must be some kind of autonomous unthinking nationalist drone who believes that every government decree must be obeyed.

How odd then that so many attempt to lionise a conscientious objector who later introduced conscription.

Presumably you depise Curtin.

 

[J_Moore]

4 pages to get from WW1 remembrance to blaming the Jews for all the wars in the world.

Nice work, mel gibsons.

 

[Wally Carter]

As an individual, it is your duty to serve your nation whether you agree with the reasons for war or not. If your country asks you to fight, you fight.

Freedom is wasted on idiots like you.

 

[medusala]

After all, their fortress at Singapore was never going to fall... Churchill stood up to the Brits and brought our troops home. Makes me proud to be an Australian.

perhaps a typo there?

 

[Richo83]

I hope conscription never graces our shores and I think it's good Australia has enough freedom to allow people the choice in war. If you don't like it, Cam go live in some dictatorship where they share such views.*

I know just made one of those "if you don't like it then leave" arguments but this illustrates the irony of his position, complaining about foreigners yet he's espousing views of similar to the Taliban in it's care of freedoms, plus, I like to use their medicine on themselves, shows how warped their own little world is

 

[Richo83]

4 pages to get from WW1 remembrance to blaming the Jews for all the wars in the world.

Nice work, mel gibsons.

It's teh Jews I tells ya!

Whatever you think a war is justified, a person and a state must have the ability to choose to fight or not, it's one of the basic notions of freedom, one of the things ironically we fought for.

 

[BigBadCam]

The Vietnamese were the proxies of others. Given Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Laos etc etc it is not hard to present a case that Australia's interests were threatened.



Nor were the Poms in the vast majority of cases in WWII.



As above.



How odd then that so many attempt to lionise a conscientious objector when he later introduced conscription.

Presumably you depise Curtin.

The reasons for being in Vietnam are many. Some, as those who were telling Ali what to say must have, believed that we were there simply to assist the French in keeping a stranglehold on the Vietnamese and maintain their empire. Western governments believed in the 'domino theory', fearing that communism would keep spreading one country after the other. The west's fear of communism was also why we fought several other minor conflicts and why the Kuamintang (later Taiwanese) recieved so much support and recognised for decades after the Chinese civil war as the legitimate government of China. There's also the argument that we had to fight alongside the Americans because we were joined under the terms of the ANZUS alliance, and had it not been for the Americans we could possibly have been overtaken by the Japanese during WW2... Most who refused to go did so because they were scared to die, but a death in the service of your country is one of the most honourable.

 

[Wally Carter]

After all, their fortress at Singapore was never going to fall... Churchill stood up to the Brits and brought our troops home. Makes me proud to be an Australian.

Do you get your history lessons off fantale wrappers?

 

[medusala]

I hope conscription never graces our shores and I think it's good Australia has enough freedom to allow people the choice in war.

Could Australia actually operate an armed force of any note without conscription?

 

[BigBadCam]

perhaps a typo there?

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[J_Moore]

The reasons for being in Vietnam are many. Some, as those who were telling Ali what to say must have, believed that we were there simply to assist the French in keeping a stranglehold on the Vietnamese and maintain their empire...

Considering the French left Vietnam in the mid-1950's, I reckon Ali's unwillingness to be conscripted had little to do with not wanting to help the French stay in Indochina

 

[Wally Carter]

Could Australia actually operate an armed force of any note without conscription?

Depends on whether the people believed war was necessary.

 

[BigBadCam]

Do you get your history lessons off fantale wrappers?

No, but I make the odd typo. It happens when you type around 100 words per minute.

 

[Richo83]

Most who refused to go did so because they were scared to die, but a death in the service of your country is one of the most honourable.

Using that logic, if Iran declared war on Israel and used Islamist terrorist suicide bombers to attack Israel and they blew up a marketplace, that would be honorable. I knew cam was a terrorist lover. Just knew it.

 

[bit_pattern]

but a death in the service of your country is one of the most honourable.

No one is holding you back!

Go and throw yourself into a power station or something, you can serve the country by providing a a KwH of electricity or something.