Society/Culture Lest we forget

[J_Moore]

Could Australia actually operate an armed force of any note without conscription?

Submarines and jets say yes.

 

[Wally Carter]

Submarines and jets say yes.

True, as far as second/third world countries go.

 

[Richo83]

No, but I make the odd typo. It happens when you type around 100 words per minute.

Yeah because we all make mistakes about writing how Churchill stood up to the Brits, don't we.

Could Australia actually operate an armed force of any note without conscription?

Where's your libertarian roots med? What's the point of fighting for freedom if we squash it in the process? Anyway, if it is a good fight surely we'd have friends. There's no war big enough to drag us into it without US help, well, that's what we're told anyway. And J Moore is right, it's not about numbers these days, it's about manpower. Anyone who thinks that we rely on recruiting average joes to win wars is crazy, no, we rely on buying up to date weaponry from the US.

 

[BigBadCam]

Considering the French left Vietnam in the mid-1950's, I reckon Ali's unwillingness to be conscripted had little to do with not wanting to help the French stay in Indochina

The French and Americans were behind the various governments that followed the official end of the French occupation. French interests remained despite their official ceasation of rule. The US investment in the French resistance to the Chinese backed Vietminh prior to the Geneva convention of 1954, which coincidentaly the Americans and South Vietnamese governments didn't sign was a major reason the US saw Vietnam as a necessary evil.

 

[BigBadCam]

I like this...

 

[bit_pattern]

I'll add it to the list! We can even do it to that song from the Sound of Music if you like: 'these are a few of my favourite things'.

 

[BigBadCam]

I'll add it to the list! We can even do it to that song from the Sound of Music if you like: 'these are a few of my favourite things'.

Lol. Sounds good buddy. Honestly though, where would some of these threads be without my input? You need people like me to disagree with you and make these threads interesting otherwise they'd just become a big circle jerk.

 

[medusala]

Where's your libertarian roots med?

Still there. My family all volunteered they werent made to go.

What's the point of fighting for freedom if we squash it in the process?

A smart chap told me a couple of years ago that the Chinese would invade Russia due to their need for natural resources. Only problem is that Russia is still capable of giving them a touch along.

If Russia had a volunteer army do you not think that would act as an invitation to the Chinese?

Anyway, if it is a good fight surely we'd have friends.

There has bee a bit written about precisely how valuable as a strategic ally Australia is to the US (and was for that matter). I dont think it is as clear cut as many assume.

And J Moore is right, it's not about numbers these days, it's about manpower. Anyone who thinks that we rely on recruiting average joes to win wars is crazy, no, we rely on buying up to date weaponry from the US.

See US vs NVA, Serbs, Taliban etc.

Read a good book on this recently ie about the surge.

The Yanks starting winning when they put more grunts on the ground.

 

[J_Moore]

If Russia had a volunteer army do you not think that would act as an invitation to the Chinese?

I'd say the world's second largest stockpile of nuclear weapons might make them a bit wary.

 

[medusala]

I'd say the world's second largest stockpile of nuclear weapons might make them a bit wary.

Possibly, possibly not (see Korea).

Then again Australia doesnt have that option.

How many JSFs have we ordered?

 

[Blight von Torp]

The French and Americans were behind the various governments that followed the official end of the French occupation. French interests remained despite their official ceasation of rule. The US investment in the French resistance to the Chinese backed Vietminh prior to the Geneva convention of 1954, which coincidentaly the Americans and South Vietnamese governments didn't sign was a major reason the US saw Vietnam as a necessary evil.

Here's my understanding of what happened in very brief form

1. Pre WWII Indochina colonised by the French
2. WWII - Japanese kick the French out of there
3. End of WWII - Vietnamese get their hopes up thinking now we can finally have our country back
4. Unfortunately for them, French rule is re-imposed
5. War of independence starts against the French
6. French get humiliated at Dien Bien Phu by Vietnamese forces, Ho Chi Minh is a national hero (think George Washington)
7. This lead to a ceasefire and the Geneva Convention of 1954
8. The 17th parallel was never designed to split the country into two separate entities, it was just a way of keeping the French and Vietnamese troops out of each others way
9. The Geneva convention outcome was for Vietnamese independence and country wide elections with secret ballot.
10. Instead the Americans intervene and install a dictatorial regime in the "South Vietnam" and deny the Vietnamese elections - because 90% of the country would have voted for Ho Chi Minh - him being a national hero and all
11. The 'Vietnam War' starts as an insurgency by the population in South Vietnam against the dictatorial puppet Government.
12. The Americans pour more and more troops in to fight the insurgency and become totally ruthless, slaughtering more than 2 million civilians - including unspeakable war crimes
13. Americans stage Gulf of Tonkin incident, and use it as an excuse to carpet bomb North Vietnam
14. While they are at it, the Americans carpet bomb Cambodia in Kissinger's "secret war" killing another 600,000 - more bombs are dropped on Cambodia than were dropped in the whole of WWII. Not exactly sure why they did it.
15. With logistical support from North Vietnam, and China, the Americans get kicked out of the country
16. After a 30 year struggle, the Vietnamese finally get their independence

------------------------------------------------

So when it comes to the Australian conscientious objectors, I salute them for having resisted being drawn into this criminal killing spree, and seeing through the whole anti-Communist propaganda for the con job that it was.

In fact it takes more courage to stand for your principles and risk jail and public condemnation, than it did to go along to Vietnam like some poor sheep.

 

[J_Moore]

Here's my understanding of what happened in very brief form

1. Pre WWII Indochina colonised by the French
2. WWII - Japanese kick the French out of there
3. End of WWII - Vietnamese get their hopes up thinking now we can finally have our country back
4. Unfortunately for them, French rule is re-imposed
5. War of independence starts against the French
6. French get humiliated at Dien Bien Phu by Vietnamese forces, Ho Chi Minh is a national hero (think George Washington)
7. This lead to a ceasefire and the Geneva Convention of 1954
8. The 17th parallel was never designed to split the country into two separate entities, it was just a way of keeping the French and Vietnamese troops out of each others way
9. The Geneva convention outcome was for Vietnamese independence and country wide elections with secret ballot.
10. Instead the Americans intervene and install a dictatorial regime in the "South Vietnam" and deny the Vietnamese elections - because 90% of the country would have voted for Ho Chi Minh - him being a national hero and all
11. The 'Vietnam War' starts as an insurgency by the population in South Vietnam against the dictatorial puppet Government.
12. The Americans pour more and more troops in to fight the insurgency and become totally ruthless, slaughtering more than 2 million civilians - including unspeakable war crimes
13. Americans stage Gulf of Tonkin incident, and use it as an excuse to carpet bomb North Vietnam
14. While they are at it, the Americans carpet bomb Cambodia in Kissinger's "secret war" killing another 600,000 - more bombs are dropped on Cambodia than were dropped in the whole of WWII. Not exactly sure why they did it.
15. With logistical support from North Vietnam, and China, the Americans get kicked out of the country
16. After a 30 year struggle, the Vietnamese finally get their independence

That all happened, but it does gloss over the brutality of the North somewhat. They don't come out of the conflict smelling like roses, either.

 

[TheBloods]

Points 3 and 10 again overemphasise the overall nationalist aspect.

 

[bit_pattern]

One of these days I'm going to get around to doing some research on Vietnamese nationalism during the colonil era, I really am.

 

[rooboy]

Well I don't think conscripting blokes and sending them to Vietnam to participate in the slaughter of 2 million civilians really contributed to Australian freedoms.

Let alone those naive / adventure seeking teenagers who volunteered for WW1.

Exactly. The Vietnam war should have had nothing to do with this country. Just suckin' up to the yanks yet again.

 

[Blight von Torp]

Points 3 and 10 again overemphasise the overall nationalist aspect.

Says who?

 

[TheBloods]

Says who?

As I've said, my previous reading has suggested there was not a strong nationalistic view across all of Vietnam as people like to claim, which is not surprising as it was rarely united into a single, independent state in its history.

 

[evo]

BVT, you missed the biggest cause of Sth East Asian trouble: French university education.

 

[fairdinkum]

Where's your libertarian roots med?

Good point. Just shows the inherent irrationality of 'libertarianism'.

Don't put in place any social programs which may help your fellow countryman, but go and give your life for him on the other side of the planet.

 

[evo]

Good point. Just shows the inherent irrationality of 'libertarianism'.

More likely it shows your misunderstanding of it.

Don't put in place any social programs which may help your fellow countryman, but go and give your life for him on the other side of the planet.

Huh?

Libertarianism doesn't promote warring for national causes; if anything it argues against the State in favour of individualism.

 

[fairdinkum]

Libertarianism doesn't promote warring for national causes; if anything it argues against the State in favour of individualism.

My post was based on the implication that Medusala supported conscription.

Perhaps I should have written 'Med's brand of libertarianism'.

 

[evo]

Win!

 

[chargers 09]

that's pathetic. When Ali made the decision to object to fighting "brown people" he had no quarrel with, he was perfectly within his senses. You are being unbelievably patronising trying to transpose his current state with him in the '70s. Where do you get off rubbishing his rational ethical beliefs to fit in with your narrow minded argument? Unbelievable!

The war in Vietnam was a war about ideology. The Vietnamese posed NO danger to Australia. Therefore, we were not defending our homeland. We were conscripted by our government, to travel to a war & invade a country that had nothing to do with us.

You sneer at conscientious objectors. I sneer at you.

In fact, I pity you. Think for yourself FFS. "Your country will decide what's best for you". What a ****ing limp wristed bullshit statement to make. You must be some kind of autonomous unthinking nationalist drone who believes that every government decree must be obeyed.

I pity you.

So, if the government of the day - the "country", as you call it - decide you should pay 80% tax, is that fair? LOL! Go for it!

That an ideology you do not believe in can be forced on you under pain of imprisonment is a disgrace. That you must, despite your personal morality, invade another sovereign state and brutally kill their soldiers, citizens, women & children; despite them having posed no threat to you & yours, and you having no disagreement with them, is a disgrace. That, based solely on the day you were born, that you must violate your own deeply held moral beliefs based on the whim of a foreign power, is a disgrace.

I don't respect your opinion on this matter. Not one bit.

You ask which groups have grounds to refuse. I ask you, what foreign government has the right to demand that I fight their proxy battles? That I must kill people I have no quarrel with, for a meaningless strategic game played by politicians in their comfortable quarters who have no concept of the suffering of the common man. The Great Game. That I should violate deeply held beliefs at the whim of a 60 year old politician who is sucking the arse of another 60 year old politician. Yet you would.

You imbecile. You sucker. You are the puppet. Defend your homeland when it's needed. Don't invade others on the flimsy premise of ideology then try & belittle those that, unlike you, have the courage of their convictions.

Mate how do u know if we (western nations) didn't oppose the Vietcong as much as we did that communism would of spread right through Asia... im with Cam here its ok to say 30 odd years after the conflict that it was an absolute waste of time.

 

[bit_pattern]

^^ Because that would ignore the 1000's of years of animosity between Vietnam and China, the nationalist nature of the Viet Cong, and the fierce independence of the Vietnamese people. And the fact that Communism spread as a direct result of US action in Cambodia, something that was ironically stopped by the Vietnamese invasion in 1978. Not to mention that it wasn't until becoming mired in Vietnam that America realsied Communism wasn't monolithic and was able to use detente to exploit the hostitity between China and the Soviets.

 

[TheBloods]

Mate how do u know if we (western nations) didn't oppose the Vietcong as much as we did that communism would of spread right through Asia... im with Cam here its ok to say 30 odd years after the conflict that it was an absolute waste of time.

Wrong - a fundamental misunderstanding (as the Americans had) of Ho Chi Minh's desire for independence not for furthering communism.