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Discussion Let's talk about our debt

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fargothegreat said:
Yes there's a lot of people in that area, but very few of them are Saints fans.
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saints fans isnt the issue ....
we have one of the biggest supporter bases going round problem is with that supporter base the very large % of them would identify as a saints supporter but realistically not have any real interest in the footy let alone have enough interest to attend games or buy a membership ...
about 10 years ago i saw a report that was put together by an independant source that was provided to the AFL from market research on the support of teams nationally and surprisingly enough a couple of the struggling clubs had considerably larger supporter bases compared to membership bases ... St Kilda was one of the biggest gaps and Richmond being another that at the time was well supported but not showing in the membership (remember 10 years ago)..
 
st_trav_ofWA said:
saints fans isnt the issue ....
we have one of the biggest supporter bases going round problem is with that supporter base the very large % of them would identify as a saints supporter but realistically not have any real interest in the footy let alone have enough interest to attend games or buy a membership ...
about 10 years ago i saw a report that was put together by an independant source that was provided to the AFL from market research on the support of teams nationally and surprisingly enough a couple of the struggling clubs had considerably larger supporter bases compared to membership bases ... St Kilda was one of the biggest gaps and Richmond being another that at the time was well supported but not showing in the membership (remember 10 years ago)..
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http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8088-afl-supporter-ladder-june-2019-201908160718
Has as ranked 12 in the league for amount of fans.
 
jwikked said:
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8088-afl-supporter-ladder-june-2019-201908160718
Has as ranked 12 in the league for amount of fans.
Click to expand...
thats figures from 2018 ... the report i saw was in 2009
so the fact we were winning and playing finals certainly pushed up our "suporters" at that time... those supporters could very well be back once the team starts winning regularly ...
at the moment our club is much much better at the conversion of supporters to members as the supporters still on board are buying the hope things are on the up ... when we were successful in 2009 even though we had the supporters aue we were winning we we not placed well do actually do anything with that support and turn it into money for the club ...
this is one of the things i tip my hat to Matt Finnis for the most , since his involvment in the club the focus on Fan engagment and building the club around the supporter has been unlike anything ive seen in my involvment with the club ever.... if we only have Finnis or some one of his skill back in 2009 we would be golden right now ... but in the typically St Kilda way when we have onfield success we have morons running the place and when we have strong leaders running the place the team is playing like headless chooks .... as a club hopefully one day soon we get the situation where the stars alighn and we have onfield success with a solid team running the club and maximising the gold that being successful on feild can provide
 

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st_trav_ofWA said:
thats figures from 2018 ... the report i saw was in 2009
so the fact we were winning and playing finals certainly pushed up our "suporters" at that time... those supporters could very well be back once the team starts winning regularly ...
at the moment our club is much much better at the conversion of supporters to members as the supporters still on board are buying the hope things are on the up ... when we were successful in 2009 even though we had the supporters aue we were winning we we not placed well do actually do anything with that support and turn it into money for the club ...
this is one of the things i tip my hat to Matt Finnis for the most , since his involvment in the club the focus on Fan engagment and building the club around the supporter has been unlike anything ive seen in my involvment with the club ever.... if we only have Finnis or some one of his skill back in 2009 we would be golden right now ... but in the typically St Kilda way when we have onfield success we have morons running the place and when we have strong leaders running the place the team is playing like headless chooks .... as a club hopefully one day soon we get the situation where the stars alighn and we have onfield success with a solid team running the club and maximising the gold that being successful on feild can provide
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Finnis has been fantastic for the club. Like you said imagine if we had him in the late 2000’s. We would have had thousands of more supporters and Probably not have gone to Seaford. Then our debt would have been much lower.
 
plugger66 said:
Finnis has been fantastic for the club. Like you said imagine if we had him in the late 2000’s. We would have had thousands of more supporters and Probably not have gone to Seaford. Then our debt would have been much lower.
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our mismanagment in the late 2000's was woeful .... the fact we were winning glossed over the fact how poor they were .. on that one hand i do lament not having what we have today then ... but the scary thought is being where we have just been (and lets be honest still are) and having the mismanagment of that era ... we would be royally screwed if the late 2000's crew were guiding us at this time ....

i remember the comment being made at the time that our supporter groups had a better grasp on how to run the cub then the actual club leaders did
 
StCicatriz said:
it's not the debt that will kill us, its the cash flow. as long as that's still coming in we are ok.

i've been posting in the covid thread so i missed this one. but i was really alarmed at some of the developments coming out in the media. mainly the end to the extra AFL distribution we get, which is around 7 million a season. the talk was that all clubs will get the same AFL distribution. which means we need to make up a short fall of 7 million if we operate with the same spend. remembering we also tend to run regular losses.

that's a big number to make up.

i was even more concerned that the AFL would only offer extra assistance in the form of a loan. if we are posting regular losses and do not sort out our P&L we suddenly can end up in Fitzroy territory here, especially if we continue down the path of private lending.

but then the news broke that a new soft cap of around 6 million would be introduced for football dept spending. our current spend from memory is around 10m to 12m, which means we would reduce our costs a lot along with the rest of the comp. so we are sitting at or around the reduction in AFL distribution. for clubs that have more money and can go over the soft cap they would then be taxed. ideally it would be a hard cap to give everyone a level playing field. so it sounds like we might have a really good opportunity here to:
1) get an even playing field between the big clubs and smaller clubs, like the salary cap initially did,
2) get a reduction in inflation on football dept spend which means we don't need AFL Distribution money to keep up,
3) get an opportunity to finally turn regular profits which in turn will mean the pay down of debt or investment into areas outside of footy,
4) the end of the compromised drafts due to the zones which now look to be canned and placed into the hands of the state leagues.

the pressure really needs to come onto Finnis here. our figures have been boosted by the AFL and Government grant money coming in from Moorabbin. take that out and its been predominantly losses. even with the increased AFL revenue and stadia deals. so we really need to start to see the P&L turn around. if that doesn't happen we really do need new leadership (before you look at the poor onfield results over the last couple of years).
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This has been covered before - a large component of the $7m "shortfall" was to make up for a predicted loss based on stadium deal, fixturing, lack of marquee games etc etc. All of that doesn't exist at the moment and most of it doesn't exist if the season proceeds under a "hub" proposal.

No doubt we have to be ruthless in our efficiency drive but its not as bad as you say.
 
st_trav_ofWA said:
our mismanagment in the late 2000's was woeful .... the fact we were winning glossed over the fact how poor they were .. on that one hand i do lament not having what we have today then ... but the scary thought is being where we have just been (and lets be honest still are) and having the mismanagment of that era ... we would be royally screwed if the late 2000's crew were guiding us at this time ....

i remember the comment being made at the time that our supporter groups had a better grasp on how to run the cub then the actual club leaders did
Click to expand...
Yet there are some who still don’t realise how good off the field finnis has been.
 
pebblesofsand said:
This has been covered before - a large component of the $7m "shortfall" was to make up for a predicted loss based on stadium deal, fixturing, lack of marquee games etc etc. All of that doesn't exist at the moment and most of it doesn't exist if the season proceeds under a "hub" proposal.

No doubt we have to be ruthless in our efficiency drive but its not as bad as you say.
Click to expand...

my read was that, its not a one off. it hows the distribution will work moving forward. otherwise how would the soft cap work? you cant surprise clubs with that on the hop given half the year had been paid already.
 
StCicatriz said:
not if they're borrowing from the AFL
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So all dividends will be the same but you can borrow. How would they ever pay it back. They would be borrowing 10 million a year. It makes no sense that all dividends will be the same. All that does it make most clubs in debt. Even more than they already are.
 
st_trav_ofWA said:
thats figures from 2018 ... the report i saw was in 2009
so the fact we were winning and playing finals certainly pushed up our "suporters" at that time... those supporters could very well be back once the team starts winning regularly ...
at the moment our club is much much better at the conversion of supporters to members as the supporters still on board are buying the hope things are on the up ... when we were successful in 2009 even though we had the supporters aue we were winning we we not placed well do actually do anything with that support and turn it into money for the club ...
this is one of the things i tip my hat to Matt Finnis for the most , since his involvment in the club the focus on Fan engagment and building the club around the supporter has been unlike anything ive seen in my involvment with the club ever.... if we only have Finnis or some one of his skill back in 2009 we would be golden right now ... but in the typically St Kilda way when we have onfield success we have morons running the place and when we have strong leaders running the place the team is playing like headless chooks .... as a club hopefully one day soon we get the situation where the stars alighn and we have onfield success with a solid team running the club and maximising the gold that being successful on feild can provide
Click to expand...

The same poll in 2009 has us in essentially the same position. I can’t find the webpage but it was discussed on the Big Footballer website here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...and-collingwood-most-popular-vic-club.605086/

I’m not sure where your data came from but it doesn’t sound right.
 

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jwikked said:
The same poll in 2009 has us in essentially the same position. I can’t find the webpage but it was discussed on the Big Footballer website here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...and-collingwood-most-popular-vic-club.605086/

I’m not sure where your data came from but it doesn’t sound right.
Click to expand...

the data trav is referring to is the infamous internal report. i'm not sure what company did the polling or how they extrapolated it out to the number they did, but it's apparently legit because Finnis was showing people it when he came on board.

i dont think its publicly accessible though. so it's all a bit if hear say until people can get their hands on it.
 
plugger66 said:
Yet there are some who still don’t realise how good off the field finnis has been.
Click to expand...
i came out a meeting once regarding the supporter groups with Archie Fraser and thinking to myself how does this guy run a anything ?
a fellow supporter group had a meeting with Nettlefold and the subject came up about interactions with former players and Netters with a straight face said well im a former player so heres your interaction...
as supporter groups there was a thought amongst the leaders at the club that they need to keep us away in case we ask for stuff ... easier to keep us at arms length then say no ...
under the new system the club realise that without the members you dont have a club and supporter groups are the cheap and effective way to engage with the members on multiple leves across the country ... not one cent extra is spent by the club by engaging with the members more and in turn our club has a club feel about it again ...
 
StCicatriz said:
my read was that, its not a one off. it hows the distribution will work moving forward. otherwise how would the soft cap work? you cant surprise clubs with that on the hop given half the year had been paid already.
Click to expand...
No that's not true - the equalisation of distribution is only for this year since its highly possible there won't be a season. The additional distribution funds are about equalising fixture, tv coverage and marquee game inequality and are calculated on a season by season basis.

It will be reset for next year season once the details of the required changes to keep the comp viable are known.

The clubs must cut the soft cap from $9.7m to $8.7m this year - what the coronavirus crisis has done is force the AFL to instruct the clubs that the soft cap will be further reduced next year to the $6m (which is something the AFL wanted anyway - just like shorter quarters)

The same will apply to the salary cap - once they work out how big the lists will be next year there will then be a commensurate cut to the SC to force that change.

There will be changes - but this is is all about getting the comp through this season - in the end though the comp it is fundamentally economically sound - unlike the NRL.
 
pebblesofsand said:
No that's not true - the equalisation of distribution is only for this year since its highly possible there won't be a season this year. The additional distribution funds are about equalising fixture, tv coverage and marquee game inequality and are calculated on a season by season basis.

It will be reset for next year season once the details of the required changes to keep the comp viable are known.

The clubs must cut the soft cap from $9.7m to $8.7m this year - what the coronavirus crisis has done is force the AFL to instruct the clubs that the soft cap will be further reduced next year to the $6m. The same will apply to the salary cap - once they work out how big the lists will be next year there will then be a commensurate cut to the SC to enable that to happen.

This is all about getting the comp through this season - because in the end the comp it is fundamentally economically sound - unlike the NRL
Click to expand...

so what you're saying is, although unlikely, we could have a soft cap of 6m but keep our distribution as is? which would be a massive result for us.

but what is more likely is we get cut back to a 6m soft cap and then our distribution significantly wound back closer to nothing.
 
StCicatriz said:
so what you're saying is, although unlikely, we could have a soft cap of 6m but keep our distribution as is? which would be a massive result for us.

but what is more likely is we get cut back to a 6m soft cap and then our distribution significantly wound back closer to nothing.
Click to expand...
It will just be adjusted pro rata.
 
jwikked said:
The same poll in 2009 has us in essentially the same position. I can’t find the webpage but it was discussed on the Big Footballer website here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...and-collingwood-most-popular-vic-club.605086/

I’m not sure where your data came from but it doesn’t sound right.
Click to expand...
it was commissioned by the AFL for the clubs it was one page of a 600 page report on the state of the game, im not certain but i think in part it was to do with the television bidding rights for the AFL it was highly confidential info hence i only got shown a quick peep at the one page .. who knows what else was inside that report ... thats why i tend to believe the information i got from it as it was clearly something that was not for the general public's eyes.
the roy morgan resueach uses a survey sample and then multiplys that by % of people in the geographical area it right of the back discounts supporters of clubs from other states internationally and in areas where ther isnt a football team... the Roy Morgan figures only indicate that 7.1M people support the AFL in total by those figures per team so you need to understand what they constitute a supporter as ...
the report i saw had much higher numbers across the board for all teams as it was talking in the vacinity of millions not hundreds of thousands for the very top of the tree .. as i stated the report i saw was people who identify as a team supporter...
not doubting the roy morgan research but i trust the report i saw from the AFL
 

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StCicatriz said:
so what you're saying is, although unlikely, we could have a soft cap of 6m but keep our distribution as is? which would be a massive result for us.

but what is more likely is we get cut back to a 6m soft cap and then our distribution significantly wound back closer to nothing.
Click to expand...
That may be possible but it is highly unlikely.

Next season the usual suspects will get a better deal re fixturing and marquee games so the equalization process will need to remain place. You're right though - it may be less.

Maybe next year is something like $10m salary cap, $6m soft cap and $5m equalization.
 
StCicatriz said:
the data trav is referring to is the infamous internal report. i'm not sure what company did the polling or how they extrapolated it out to the number they did, but it's apparently legit because Finnis was showing people it when he came on board.

i dont think its publicly accessible though. so it's all a bit if hear say until people can get their hands on it.
Click to expand...
the report was from 2009 ... Netters showed it ... and to be honest prob shouldnt have done so
 
pebblesofsand said:
Not sure why we stopped but this money would have been very handy

"Hawthorn's current five-year deal in Tasmania is worth $20 million."
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We never looked comfortable in Tassie. In our time we had 4 wins, 4 losses. We only kicked more than 100 points once in 8 matches. Similar to New Zealand, it's all nice to sell games to improve the financial position but a loss is still a loss. We were building towards a finals charge and we were much more certain to win at Docklands than across Bass Strait. Hell, the siren mess cost us a place in the finals that year, after the commission decided to change the rules and change the result it gave us our second Tassie loss for the year (which also happened to be the last year we played home games in Tassie).

Also we were just second to the party. We arrived in 2003, two years after the Hawks. They'd already laid the groundwork and Kennett was aggressive in staking a claim. If we had've stayed it's likely we'd be second fiddle as North are now and the noises about us moving there permanently would be louder.
 
goodie23 said:
We never looked comfortable in Tassie. In our time we had 4 wins, 4 losses. We only kicked more than 100 points once in 8 matches. Similar to New Zealand, it's all nice to sell games to improve the financial position but a loss is still a loss. We were building towards a finals charge and we were much more certain to win at Docklands than across Bass Strait. Hell, the siren mess cost us a place in the finals that year, after the commission decided to change the rules and change the result it gave us our second Tassie loss for the year (which also happened to be the last year we played home games in Tassie).

Also we were just second to the party. We arrived in 2003, two years after the Hawks. They'd already laid the groundwork and Kennett was aggressive in staking a claim. If we had've stayed it's likely we'd be second fiddle as North are now and the noises about us moving there permanently would be louder.
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As a Tasmanian - Hawthorn and North can take off; sick of subsidising em they are leeches. Tasmanian premier is finally playing hardball with the AFL and those deals will hopefully finish sooner than later.

The Saints need to work harder than ever to get members on board, have more faith in the current administration than when were down at Seaford. If we actually start making money out of Docklands we will be ok, but that is a big if. Need to lobby the AFL hard to make sure that is the case.

Geelong is another that controls it's own destiny, making a heap out of Kardinia Park and even making $'s out of games at Docklands.....does not make sense to me.

Saints do need to be self sufficient.
 

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