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Lions Drafting Discussion 2010 (no trade talk) #2

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Quigley said:
Yeh pick 5 will be one of Gaff, Heppell, Atley or Polec I think and I have absolutely no problem with those guys (although I don't rate Heppell that highly personally). All are good and low risk prospects. I like to shake things up a bit with my mock and when you have nothing really riding on the pick its easy to take an outrageous player who really has no chance of being taken there on the day.

With that said I hear quite a few things about where teams rate particular players from year to year and they are often surprising. For example just because the common perception is that Bartlett was a 20-30 pick didn't stop Wiseby from rating him at 5 last year. Adelaide also have astoundingly original ratings for players year in year out. Those kind of things give me a lot of confidence to just say to hell with it and put the guy in there that I rate.
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I think Heppell is so highly rated because of his linebreaking composure, in that he never looks rushed into making his kick...

Atley has average kicking skills and will be another Rhys Palmer...no thanks.

Polec looks pretty solid...but what I was in the SANFL was a player that gets easily pressured with his disposals and sky balls alot of kicks. Smith will be a better player then Polec

I think Caddy will be a star

still, I want a versitle mid with great skills...Heppell please
 
If Quigley has reservations on Heppel I am not sold. Very much on the money come draft time (Fyfe last year springs to mind especially). As TBD informed me Heppel seems to have had a good finish to the year but was it a flash in the pan? Pick five is too high a price to draft a back flanker. Even Rance who was outstanding in this position during the under 18s hasn't really been able to translate his form into any standout performances yet.

Generally midfielders have been playing this HBF role anyway. We need a genuine midfield prospect.
 
pod17 said:
If Quigley has reservations on Heppel I am not sold. Very much on the money come draft time (Fyfe last year springs to mind especially).
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I'm a huge Quigley fan, but also a huge Graeme Hadley fan. If he takes him on the day, I'm happy.:thumbsu:


As TBD informed me Heppel seems to have had a good finish to the year but was it a flash in the pan? Pick five is too high a price to draft a back flanker.
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He's only listed as a defender because that is where he played in the u18 championships. He moved into the midfield midway through the TAC Cup season and looked immediately at home by all reports (36 disposals in the prelim final vs Oakleigh). If he did it while suffering mild OP, then I am even more impressed.

Top 6 in the beep test and equal first for clean hands at draft camp, and we already know he can kick. I have little doubt he is an outstanding midfield prospect. Maybe not from day 1 like Rich, but over time... potential to be an incredible player.

A few weeks out from draft camp is when cold feet set in and you start to find reasons why the players wont make it. But you can find question marks in every single highly ranked player (bar Swallow) if you look hard enough.

Bennell - inconsistent

Day - flaky personality, does he have the desire?

Gaff - very good at everything, but no standout whizzbang trait that rips games apart. Premium vanilla bean ice cream is great, but where is the hot fudge sauce.

Polec - goes missing in games, is also a massive fan of himself

Atley - suspect kicking

Caddy - has dominated junior footy due to his bullocking big frame. Will he be able to play that sort of game at AFL level when he has to pick on blokes his own size.

Like these guys, Heppell has his question marks. I agree that his body work isn't great and that he hasn't had enough time to demonstrate consistent midfield performance.

I think that any perceived deficiencies of his can be ironed out in an AFL environment. Even in the scenario where he doesn't make it as a mid, I am certain we get a 200 game one-touch rebounding "quarterback" defender who can straighten us up down back with that left foot.

At the very worst, I reckon you are looking at a Martin Mattner.

Easily has the potential to be a Robert Murphy.

Best case scenario, we are talking Brendan Goddard. :cool:
 
pod17 said:
Pick five is too high a price to draft a back flanker.
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I would argue that a damaging back flanker is becoming one of the most important positions on the ground. Players like Drummond, Hodge and Goddard, who can set up the play are as important as any of the midfielders. It may be worth noting that recent premiership teams are tending to give the captaincy to this type of player.
 
pod17 said:
If Quigley has reservations on Heppel I am not sold. Very much on the money come draft time (Fyfe last year springs to mind especially). As TBD informed me Heppel seems to have had a good finish to the year but was it a flash in the pan? Pick five is too high a price to draft a back flanker. Even Rance who was outstanding in this position during the under 18s hasn't really been able to translate his form into any standout performances yet.

Generally midfielders have been playing this HBF role anyway. We need a genuine midfield prospect.
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Quigs freely admits that he didn't see much of the TAC Cup games. People need to understand that this is by far the premier Under 18 season long competition in the country.

Why did the likes of Pendelbury, Thomas & even Sidebottom get drafted so high by the Pies? Why did we draft Rockliff?
Would people now debate the merits of where these players were drafted?

Heppell was moved to the midfield later on in the season & as such his stats & numbers began to increase. I haven't seen much of him but what I do know is that on a Sunday in Melbourne that we had a show called future stars that concentrated on the TAC Cup. Once Heppell was moved to the midfield guys such as Shifter Sheehan began to rave about Heppell & he featured in the votes pretty much every week.

An oppostion coach described Heppell as an automatic for the top 3 & certainty to go to the Gold Coast. Now without wanting to disrespect Quigs I tend to lean a little more to the opinions of Shifter, etc more than anyone on Big Footy. These guys do see them play week in week out.
 
TheBrownDog said:
Gaff - very good at everything, but no standout whizzbang trait that rips games apart. Premium vanilla bean ice cream is great, but where is the hot fudge sauce.
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Bastard. Now I feel like vanilla bean ice cream with hot fudge sauce. :(
 
Grimreepah said:
I would argue that a damaging back flanker is becoming one of the most important positions on the ground. Players like Drummond, Hodge and Goddard, who can set up the play are as important as any of the midfielders. It may be worth noting that recent premiership teams are tending to give the captaincy to this type of player.
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Totally agree it is a very important position. However with the exception of Drummond, Goddard and Hodge were drafted more as mids that moved back. Heppell started as a flanker that moved to the middle. His injury history concerns me too. I appreciate an AFL environment has the best facilities possible to deal with these but sometimes, as the intensity of training increases, players bodies just struggle to cope. Lets hope, if as expected become a Lion, this isn't the case.

A few weeks out from draft camp is when cold feet set in and you start to find reasons why the players wont make it. But you can find question marks in every single highly ranked player (bar Swallow) if you look hard enough.

Bennell - inconsistent

Day - flaky personality, does he have the desire?

Gaff - very good at everything, but no standout whizzbang trait that rips games apart. Premium vanilla bean ice cream is great, but where is the hot fudge sauce.

Polec - goes missing in games, is also a massive fan of himself

Atley - suspect kicking

Caddy - has dominated junior footy due to his bullocking big frame. Will he be able to play that sort of game at AFL level when he has to pick on blokes his own size.

Like these guys, Heppell has his question marks. I agree that his body work isn't great and that he hasn't had enough time to demonstrate consistent midfield performance.

Yep fantastic points TBD. I guess I do have cold feet. I just feel like its the first time in a long while that we can really set ourselves up with a quality draft. As BB points out there are guys watching every game so they will hopefully be able to make the call that best suites us. If we do take Heppel I am hoping that we go for out and out pace with at least two of our other picks.

At the end of the day maybe there is someone else who is more what we need having already got Hawksley, Drummond, Raines, Hanley, McGrath, Collier, Patfull etc. who can play off a flank (assuming he ends up playing here and not in the midfield).
 

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Bobby Beecroft said:
Quigs freely admits that he didn't see much of the TAC Cup games. People need to understand that this is by far the premier Under 18 season long competition in the country.

Why did the likes of Pendelbury, Thomas & even Sidebottom get drafted so high by the Pies? Why did we draft Rockliff?
Would people now debate the merits of where these players were drafted?

Heppell was moved to the midfield later on in the season & as such his stats & numbers began to increase. I haven't seen much of him but what I do know is that on a Sunday in Melbourne that we had a show called future stars that concentrated on the TAC Cup. Once Heppell was moved to the midfield guys such as Shifter Sheehan began to rave about Heppell & he featured in the votes pretty much every week.

An oppostion coach described Heppell as an automatic for the top 3 & certainty to go to the Gold Coast. Now without wanting to disrespect Quigs I tend to lean a little more to the opinions of Shifter, etc more than anyone on Big Footy. These guys do see them play week in week out.
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I do not get to see all that much of these kids and have to make judgements based on very small snippets of personal knowledge and often I get to see very little is any of their end of season form. You like kids who come back from Champs and really go on with it. Who improve the areas they need to improve and show what they are worth.

Heppell is one who certainly did that and featured a lot in the bests. Personally I still think his decision making is a concern. I also have to say that I am not alone in doubting Heppell. There are more than a few people in the industry who are just as cautious about him. Others though are very high on him and would take him extremely early.

Shifter I pretty much ignore. He might have great knowledge of the kids but you would never know it from what he says in public. Everything he says is insanely positive and there is very very rarely any critical analysis. He also has his favourites and often these guys are not the guys that excel at AFL level. He has done a good job at pumping up the junior programs.

On the TAC it is the best junior competition in the country but none of the Victorian kids play against seniors like they do in other states and the TAC is way behind the standard of the WAFL and SANFL. If you are looking for guys who have less of a step up to make look for guys who are excelling in those competitions at the end of the year. Its all well and good to beat up on kids smaller and slower than you week in week out but it often doesn't help you prepare to play against elite men. Don't underestimate guys like Polec and Smith who have been looking good in senior company and just don't get the exposure that the Vict guys do.

The trick is on BF to take a cross section of opinions of the guys who know what they are talking about. Look for observations about particular things rather than a restating of popular opinion. There are a lot of guys here that see a lot of football and probably a lot more than then some of the journos who will give us their mock drafts based on nothing maybe watching the 2 minute highlights on the AFL site. I note that Snoop has just put his mock up. It is one I will definately read.
 
My very strong preference for pick 5 is he is there is Gaff. I can't see it happening but here's hoping West Coast fall in love with someone else.

Andrew Gaff
DOB 16/6/92 Ht 183 Wt 78

Gaff is a very special package and is a virtual certainty to be at least a very good player in the AFL. There has been a fair bit of talking of him down in various BF circles and personally I am not seeing what the trouble is. Firstly what he is not – he is not an hard nosed inside ball winner. He is capable of winning his own ball when it is his turn but he is predominantly an outside receiver. He will shark packs and pick up balls that fall his way but mostly he will position himself to receive or use his endurance to create space. At the champs he often played as a link man between the defense and the midfield. He is a great safety valve who is always open and when he gets the ball he does good things with it. His kicking is often criticised and I think this is way off base. The popular opinion is all he can do is chip it around and he can’t kick over a jam tin. This is not right. He actually has pretty good penetration on his kicking when he decides to use it. The thing is though that he rarely does. He likes to play within his limits and he excels at that. When he gets in a full time environment I am sure that you will start to see him kicking it a lot further because he will be more confident and the players he is playing with will be open and work further down the field. His short to mid range kicking is exceptional. He picks good targets and then hits them often with the running taking the ball in stride. When he goes with the shorter options he does tend to lean back on his kick which does rule out a change to a longer option but the lean does tend to give him excellent feel on his shorter kicks. He is a left footer and is pretty one sided. He occasionally uses his right but looks awkward doing it and occasionally gets into trouble trying to get onto the left rather than using his right. Although he plays more behind the ball than ahead of it he does occasionally get forward and is a pretty reasonable shot on goal. When he gets the ball in scoring distance his eyes tend to light up and he will lock on goal rather than opting to give off. Not selfish but sure in his ability to put it through given the chance. Overall he has excellent game sense and he reads the play exceptionally well. He runs to the right places, evaluates the situation quickly and will take the best option nine times out of ten. He does not rush his disposal under pressure and will take that extra second or two needed for his target to pop open. If there is a criticism I think he could do more of the little team things coaches love like shepherding. Tackling is not a strength of his and is something that will be worked on at the next level. He has elite endurance and uses that well offensively although he probably needs to up his use of it when the ball is going the other way. He also tested very well for pace at the combine although you do not often seem to notice it during games (it also something else which should see him be better defensively). With that said you do not often see him caught and you do see him running away from his pursuers quite often. Athletically he certainly has the tools to excel at AFL level. He is fairly thin at the moment but he does have reasonable legs and looks like he will bulk up fine as he gets older. He does need to work on his strength and his core strength in particular and he gets buffeted around in the air a bit. He is a reasonable mark but I would not say this was a strength of his.
 
Ok after going over the prospects I have a few smokies for pick 5 who look really good prospects but will polarise opinion on here:

1. Billie Smedts: I really like this kid and think he has more talent than Heppsell and Gaff, although Polec might just edge him out am not sure. He maybe a HBF, but he could easily play as a third tall, and has midfield potential as an outside/inside winger. He is an exceptional athlete, very quick and evasive, endurance probably needs improving. He plays tall and is a strong mark with good body work and very courageous. His skills are very good and he is really clean and one touch a very good prospect who could be anything. If he grows (currently 189cm) an couple of inches, possible but not sure, he could be with bulk an elite KPF.

2. Tom Lynch: Now I know some will say he is not a mid but he looks a lot like Nick Riewoldt and has the potential to be an elite KPF. Would suit our side nicely with Cornielus as the FF and Tom as the CHF, will take a few years but plays high up the ground so could work with Brown and Fev playing deeper as they get older.

Also I am unsure if i will be able to do a mock this year as I have no time really but happy to provide an opinion and did not want to do a shit job so sorry.
 
How about Qld zone selections? we used 3 last year, anyone have any ideas for this year?

i was thinking the likes of maybe tom bell from morningside or nathan reid of mt gravatt?
 

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Is there anyone out there in Lions Land that know any "inside" information on who we really are targeting? Not sure what can be disclosed but the suspense is killing me!!!
 
I don't have any inside information but guys we have shown interest in include - Heppell, Green, Matt Crocker, Kieran Butcher and Ozgur Uysal.

Guys I am guessing would be of interest to us based on Hadley's type of player include I reckon Fasolo and Horlin-Smith.
 
Quigley said:
I don't have any inside information but guys we have shown interest in include - Heppell, Green, Matt Crocker, Kieran Butcher and Ozgur Uysal.

Guys I am guessing would be of interest to us based on Hadley's type of player include I reckon Fasolo and Horlin-Smith.
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Cheers Quiggs - just watched the Butcher video - there is a lot to like about him i reckon.
 
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