List Development Issues

[1981]

Some criticisms on our list development ...

SEN made a good observation yesterday. Ratten has failed to develop a lot of the players. Players like Garlett, Simpson, Betts, Yarran etc have been unable to step up in an onball capacity, which has meant we have had to look outside to fill the Carrazzo and Murphy holes. Garlett, Betts and Yarran, their tanks haven't been developed and they are too on dimensional. Ratten keeps talking about versatility but I don't see him developing enough of it. These players are outside only, they and Ratten are one trick ponies and now with injuries this lack of development has been exposed. Collingwood on the other hand, players like Sidebottom, Thomas and Wellingham and even that little bogan small forward can play up the ground when required. What this means is when injuries have come we aren't filling the holes with our top 22 players, rather we have to bring players not in our top 22 into the team. Coll on the other hand switch their top players around to cover missing stars. This is why they can cover injuries better than us. We get injuries and we go from top team to bottom four team in terms of form. I know we have had more injuries than Coll but seriously, they have hardly missed a beat with about 5-6 top 22 players out any given week whereas we lose Carrazzo and Laidler and things fell apart remarkably quickly.

Also, the club have failed to develop any key forwards. Yes I know Mitchell is a baby and has been injured and Levi got injured just when he was about to play seniors, and Rowe of course we know about, but really the club should have been more proactive in recruiting a proven forward to fill this gaping hole. Reality is Waite's body in unreliable at best and he is not a star forward anyhow; and Thornton doesn't have the size to be a power forward. Ratten's decision to blindly hope the rucks will get the job done is naive at best. And it's not like he has done this due to injuries, as I recall he played Hampson forward from the get go this year. Hampson has improved and can take a grab now but he in an unreliable kick and his hands at ground level are appaling. He is not the answer. I am not sure any of the players on the list bar maybe Levi are the answer. Club have failed to do what is required to fill this hole at a time when, injury aside we should be a contender. But you cannot be a contender without a power forward. Look at the competition...

Haw - Buddy and Roughie
Adel - Tippett and Walker
Coll - Cloke and Dawes
Geel - Hawkins and Pods
Rich - Riewoldt
St.K - Riewoldt, Kozi
Syd - Ried

What do we have?? Injury prone Waite, Hampson/Kruezer, then a few kids who are 2-3 years off, by which time our core midfield of Judd, Scotland, Simpson, Carrazzo will all be over 30.

It is good the club recruited 3 KPPs a couple years back but these kids will take 3-5 years, and it is god they got Rowe but that was never a guaranteed solution. It has been half measures, relying on Waite and the rucks as our best bets.

 

[1981]

Sorry to add another post but I couldn't find the edit button with the ne BF set-up , but alas other list development issues I can think of include ...

Judd being flogged to death onball. Malthouse made a great call that we need to take the great man out of the middle to force others to step up. We won't develop an onball brigade with Judd in there FT as players will leave it all to the great man. And now just look at the great man, he seems exhausted, phyically AND mentally !

The other one I want to mention is Lucas. Where is he at with his footy?? A pick 12 who can run and run and has some talent but cannot crack a game even when the list is decimated with injury. where is he at? Is it mental/attitude? Either way, I suspect a Malthouse or Roos would have this lad 'onboard' and not on the outter. The whole Lucas thing stinks of the whole Grigg thing happening all over again.

 

[Claypigeon]

Probably could have found one of the existing threads to post this in. .. Didn't need a new thread to re-hash the topic of development and to stick the boot in (a little). ..

Re-read your post and see where you've been a little emotive too, as you've started with a decent basis and then let bias weaken your argument (ie. you've concentrated on the negative and ignored the positive). ..

For what it is worth:
Hammer was one of the only fit forward options come round one and you ignored Henderson
Watson (one of the three developing backs) is in the side and doing ok (Mitchell would be bar injury)
Rowe has cancer otherwise he would have been handy depth, I'm sure. ..
Yarran is being developed, he has the forward smarts and now the defensive attributes are coming on, he's an outside player though so is likely groomed for the wing
Robbo, Army and now Walker have come into the midfield. ..

will continue later. ..

 

[serenityNow]

Can't believe i watched it, but the other night on foxtel i caught a show called "The Club" Collingwood had a heap of their young rookies sitting in a skybox watching the game, at the end of each break they were asked questions and given objectives to watch for or concentrate on in the following quarter, ......thought this was fantastic for the younger guys development,

Beats having them sitting in the stands eating a pie with sauce.


Unsure if our club does this, but if we don't its a good idea.

 

[gbatman]

Our lack of midfield options comes from our drafting and not our development. Simpson is not an onballer, Betts is a forward and Yarran is developing and progressing well although I would have liked to see him given spells on the ball. It comes from a lack of strength amongst our entire playing group. It comes from chasing flankers and tall players flat out over the last few years.

It's our tall players lack of progress that bothers me. Hampson has improved slightly but still hasn't displayed a dominant display as a forward yet, not sure he has kicked more than 3 yet and often gets out marked and out competed and drops marks. How Kreuzer can still have such outstanding flaws in his marking technique and contested marking technique after being in the system for the ammount of time is mind boggling.

 

[1981]

Probably could have found one of the existing threads to post this in. .. Didn't need a new thread to re-hash the topic of development and to stick the boot in (a little). ..

Re-read your post and see where you've been a little emotive too, as you've started with a decent basis and then let bias weaken your argument (ie. you've concentrated on the negative and ignored the positive). ..

For what it is worth:
Hammer was one of the only fit forward options come round one and you ignored Henderson
Watson (one of the three developing backs) is in the side and doing ok (Mitchell would be bar injury)
Rowe has cancer otherwise he would have been handy depth, I'm sure. ..
Yarran is being developed, he has the forward smarts and now the defensive attributes are coming on, he's an outside player though so is likely groomed for the wing
Robbo, Army and now Walker have come into the midfield. ..

will continue later. ..

If we have so much midfield depth like Walker (outside), Robbo (unclean), Amry (a battler) why did we still lose to Geelong? Why was it a matter of time before they overran us? Walker is not an onballer, he is a forward come wingman, much like your blessed Yarran who maybe one day will be a wingman but not an onballer. I am talking of winning your own ball in the guts, that's where it all starts and that's where we lack quality and Ratten hasn't developed any players in this crucial part of the ground, and he has pesided over a recruitment protocol based on drafting too many skinny, outside, flanker types (Lucas, Yarran, Garlett to compliment Simpson and Walker) and not enough ball winners. Army is tough and quick but hasn't the nous nor skill to be an onballer of note.

True Henderson and lately Watson have been good. Does mentioning this now make my posts balanced your worship ?? There is no bias in my arguement, my arguement is solid - there are no gun key forwards on our list now, we have recruited the talls too late and so there is a disconnect between an ageing midfield core and young talls who take time to develop. You talk about being emotive, I suggest you cease playing the man and play the ball. Just comment about the football side of things, and stop telling me or anyone else I should have posted elsewhere and have been too bias.

Even you admit Rowe would have been depth only, and Hampson just isn't skilled enough, fumbles like an old man, and realy Kruezer should be the one being blooded for FF as he has the physical strenght and importantly the competitiveness to provide a contest and is a better kick than Hampson. His marking has also improved albeit needs more consistency. We should trade Hampson as rucks have currency (doubt a Bower will get you anything) and go into 2012 with Kruezer and Casboult as the FF options if we cannot somehow magically find ourselves a topline FF.

 

[1981]

Our lack of midfield options comes from our drafting and not our development. Simpson is not an onballer, Betts is a forward and Yarran is developing and progressing well although I would have liked to see him given spells on the ball. It comes from a lack of strength amongst our entire playing group. It comes from chasing flankers and tall players flat out over the last few years.

It's our tall players lack of progress that bothers me. Hampson has improved slightly but still hasn't displayed a dominant display as a forward yet, not sure he has kicked more than 3 yet and often gets out marked and out competed and drops marks. How Kreuzer can still have such outstanding flaws in his marking technique and contested marking technique after being in the system for the ammount of time is mind boggling.

Yes and No

It is drafting but look at Coll they have turned players like Blair and Sidebottom and Beams into decent onballers.

It is years back now Garlett and Co ruined Geelong at the MCG and St.K at the Dome, but in 2012 these players are still one dimensional and the speed thing is still the cornerstone of Rattens one dimensional game plan. He has stayed in neutral while other clubs have improved and picked apart our game plan. His game plan has been ripe for the picking for years. His game plan and his players haven't evolved.

 

[1981]

I

Judd gets goals kicked on him in the midfield every week, so not sure if he would have the defensive accountability on a back flank. I'd be more inclined to give him a lot of time up forward, but again, his kicking for goal would limit his influence likely. Keep him in the midfield. If he is our 3rd or 4th midfielder, that can only be a good thing for us. Certainly I cant see a reliance on him this year at all.

I would not play him down back.
But then forward pressure is king these days so he would probably get exposed for lack of defensive pressure as a forward if he is as lazy as you think
I think on a sub conscious level the other mids leave it all to him if he is in there and so I think for the long term betterment of the list and also for his own health and longevity he should be played at HFF until we develop some onball depth and the boys group up without him

 

[mediumsizered]

If we have so much midfield depth like Walker (outside), Robbo (unclean), Amry (a battler) why did we still lose to Geelong?

We lost to Geelong because we kicked 2.9 in the last quarter. That only needs to be 5.4 & we win the game. 9.2 equals a comfortable win.

 

[Omega Blue]

I

I would not play him down back.
But then forward pressure is king these days so he would probably get exposed for lack of defensive pressure as a forward if he is as lazy as you think
I think on a sub conscious level the other mids leave it all to him if he is in there and so I think for the long term betterment of the list and also for his own health and longevity he should be played at HFF until we develop some onball depth and the boys group up without him

he's not lazy, he's a product of the west coast system at the time. they developed there players very quickly by playing them in places lioke the midfield and fwd as soon as they entered the afl.
the fact is he's never had to play a defensive role in his career therefore he doesn't know how to do it. its not because he's lazy.

 

[ESKIE]

Sidebottom, wellingham, daisy, sinclair, blair,.... Collingwood have developed their kids so well

 

[The_Wookie]

This ageing midfield you speak of...other than Judd...who exactly wont be around in 3 years?

 

[CarltonKid07]

This ageing midfield you speak of...other than Judd...who exactly wont be around in 3 years?

Simpson, Scotland, Carrots and Walker as well as Judd will all be in their 30s.

 

[The_Wookie]

I forget how long some of these guys have been around lol

That doesnt change the fact that we are bringing midfielders and flankers into the game all the time. See: Armfield, Ellard, Lucas, Robinson, Yarran and Bootsma. Throw in Murphy, Judd, Simpson and Carazzo and you're spoilt for choice. In fact its this ready made supply of midfielders that has probably made it not as necessary for guys like Gibbs, Walker, Garlett and Betts to take a turn.

Im not entirely sure the Key Forward issue is as cut and dried as people think either. No one could have predicted Rowe would get cancer or that Luke Mitchell AND Levi Casbault would both be injury prone. Waites three year deal still mystifies me a bit. Macarthy could be a likely type either forward or back, but I havent really tracked his progress. Walkers new role is slightly weird given our inability to score, and the club seems to have no idea how to position Hampson.

Defensively, only Duigan will be getting on in years in this "three years" that people are fixed on, and Watson will shape up nicely.

 

[1981]

We lost to Geelong because we kicked 2.9 in the last quarter. That only needs to be 5.4 & we win the game. 9.2 equals a comfortable win.

Because we have no genuine class key forward

 

[1981]

I forget how long some of these guys have been around lol

That doesnt change the fact that we are bringing midfielders and flankers into the game all the time. See: Armfield, Ellard, Lucas, Robinson, Yarran and Bootsma. Throw in Murphy, Judd, Simpson and Carazzo and you're spoilt for choice. In fact its this ready made supply of midfielders that has probably made it not as necessary for guys like Gibbs, Walker, Garlett and Betts to take a turn.

Im not entirely sure the Key Forward issue is as cut and dried as people think either. No one could have predicted Rowe would get cancer or that Luke Mitchell AND Levi Casbault would both be injury prone. Waites three year deal still mystifies me a bit. Macarthy could be a likely type either forward or back, but I havent really tracked his progress. Walkers new role is slightly weird given our inability to score, and the club seems to have no idea how to position Hampson.

Defensively, only Duigan will be getting on in years in this "three years" that people are fixed on, and Watson will shape up nicely.

I forget how long some of these guys have been around lol

That doesnt change the fact that we are bringing midfielders and flankers into the game all the time. See: Armfield, Ellard, Lucas, Robinson, Yarran and Bootsma. Throw in Murphy, Judd, Simpson and Carazzo and you're spoilt for choice. In fact its this ready made supply of midfielders that has probably made it not as necessary for guys like Gibbs, Walker, Garlett and Betts to take a turn.

Im not entirely sure the Key Forward issue is as cut and dried as people think either. No one could have predicted Rowe would get cancer or that Luke Mitchell AND Levi Casbault would both be injury prone. Waites three year deal still mystifies me a bit. Macarthy could be a likely type either forward or back, but I havent really tracked his progress. Walkers new role is slightly weird given our inability to score, and the club seems to have no idea how to position Hampson.

Defensively, only Duigan will be getting on in years in this "three years" that people are fixed on, and Watson will shape up nicely.

I forget how long some of these guys have been around lol

That doesnt change the fact that we are bringing midfielders and flankers into the game all the time. See: Armfield, Ellard, Lucas, Robinson, Yarran and Bootsma. Throw in Murphy, Judd, Simpson and Carazzo and you're spoilt for choice. In fact its this ready made supply of midfielders that has probably made it not as necessary for guys like Gibbs, Walker, Garlett and Betts to take a turn.

Im not entirely sure the Key Forward issue is as cut and dried as people think either. No one could have predicted Rowe would get cancer or that Luke Mitchell AND Levi Casbault would both be injury prone. Waites three year deal still mystifies me a bit. Macarthy could be a likely type either forward or back, but I havent really tracked his progress. Walkers new role is slightly weird given our inability to score, and the club seems to have no idea how to position Hampson.

Defensively, only Duigan will be getting on in years in this "three years" that people are fixed on, and Watson will shape up nicely.

But you talk of flankers. That's the problem, and list development. You say we are spoilt for choice. Ok then so why don't Armfield n WLker etc get us across the line? We can only beat GWS and Melb with this midfield depth you talk of.

Problem is not enough of these can go on ball. There's a difference between midfield and onballers. Onball means centre square winning clearances, and we don't have enough good ones because we haven't drafted enough of them and Ratten hasn't developed any. Armfield, WLker, Yazz, Curnow, Lucas etc are either outside only or just not good enough.

 

[Big_Luch]

Are there anymore J-pods in the VFL?

 

[mediumsizered]

Because we have no genuine class key forward

Did that contribute to Yarran hitting the post, or shanking a shot from directly in front? Or Judd missing on the run? Or Simpson missing a set shot?

The fact is we had 11 scoring shots in the last quarter, most of them gettable, but we didn't convert. Whether we had a class key forward or not, the opportunities were there to win the game & we wasted them (who was the class key forward that got Geelong over the line)?

 

[mediumsizered]

Simpson, Scotland, Carrots and Walker as well as Judd will all be in their 30s.

So Walks is going to age 4 years in the next 3 years? Poor guy. We age quickly enough, without aging an extra year every 3 years.

 

[CarltonKid07]

So Walks is going to age 4 years in the next 3 years? Poor guy. We age quickly enough, without aging an extra year every 3 years.

ahaha, oops. Thought he was 27 this year. My Bad.

 

[1981]

Did that contribute to Yarran hitting the post, or shanking a shot from directly in front? Or Judd missing on the run? Or Simpson missing a set shot?

The fact is we had 11 scoring shots in the last quarter, most of them gettable, but we didn't convert. Whether we had a class key forward or not, the opportunities were there to win the game & we wasted them (who was the class key forward that got Geelong over the line)?

Hawkins second half was significant even though he didn't dominate he did what our tall fOrwards couldn't do and that is take some marks
At the end of the day if we had a gun forward we wouldn't have to have midfielders etc hitting the post
But regardless using one game to suit your argument is pointless
Fact is we don't have a gun key forward and Ratten has presided over this list management flaw
Kruez is the best bet we have but they play Hamspon there more ??

 

[Jeremias]

Hawkins second half was significant even though he didn't dominate he did what our tall fOrwards couldn't do and that is take some marks
At the end of the day if we had a gun forward we wouldn't have to have midfielders etc hitting the post
But regardless using one game to suit your argument is pointless
Fact is we don't have a gun key forward and Ratten has presided over this list management flaw
Kruez is the best bet we have but they play Hamspon there more ??

You made a silly comment, you were challenged on it and you failed to address it at all.

That alone shows me your argument has no basis.

 

[zeeCFC]

After Fev departed we have taken at least 3 big forwards from what we had available. The only one we decided to leave that has turned out good is Darling and 16 other clubs did the same. There was serious concerns about his head injuries at the time. We would've kept Kennedy if we anticipated Fev going off the rails. I see no issue.

Next year we'll look like:

Tuohy, Jamison, Bootsma
Yarran, Watson, Gibbs
Simpson, Robinson, Lucas
Walker, Henderson, Garlett
Waite, Mitchell, Betts
Warnock, Murphy, Judd
Kreuzer, Carrazzo, Scotland, Mclean etc etc etc

looks like a damn good list to me.

 

[thylacine60]

Plus any year-end trading/draft picks.

 

[Jeremias]

After Fev departed we have taken at least 3 big forwards from what we had available. The only one we decided to leave that has turned out good is Darling and 16 other clubs did the same. There was serious concerns about his head injuries at the time. We would've kept Kennedy if we anticipated Fev going off the rails. I see no issue.

Next year we'll look like:

Tuohy, Jamison, Bootsma
Yarran, Watson, Gibbs
Simpson, Robinson, Lucas
Walker, Henderson, Garlett
Waite, Mitchell, Betts
Warnock, Murphy, Judd
Kreuzer, Carrazzo, Scotland, Mclean etc etc etc

looks like a damn good list to me.

Where's Goddard?