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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by Supermercado, Mar 9, 2015.

Put it out there
  1. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    Attention all: I've decided to create a separate thread for the Missing DOD and DOB of League Players (AFL).
    That will allow us to quarantine the research to the one thread. (I think Harry H first suggested this).
    And that allows this current thread to be used for Inaccuracies.
    I've already started the new thread (its not Pinned, I don't know how to). And on that thread I'll be posting the missing DOD and DOB.
     
    the croucher, Harry Hook and 35Daicos like this.

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  2. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    Can we have previous posts transferred to the new thread.
     
  3. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    The_Wookie ? Is this possible if someone points out the relevant posts?
     
  4. The_Wookie

    The_Wookie Queenslander!

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  5. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    A good tip by Trove, that has helped me now and then when searching for data
    As well as asking Trove to find things that contain your keywords, you can specify how close together the keywords should appear.

    Just use the ~ (tilde) symbol in the simple search box to set the 'distance' between your keywords. For example: "pioneer australia"~2 will match items with 'pioneer' and 'australia' within two words of each other.

    These types of searches are particularly useful for finding things like names.
     
    The_Wookie and GreyCrow like this.
  6. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    So I've been focussing on Reserve players/officials.
    In 1938 Richmond Reserves Annual Report under Obituary the first name is : Horrie Annear.
    Now it appears Horrie L Annear, came from Clunes to Richmond Reserves. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206955450 , playing in practice matches of 1938 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11163750, and playing quite well http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/180858610.
    He even played 4 games for Richmond Reserves in 1938. But I can't find a death notice/date of his passing in 1938.
    I'm trying to figure out if he debuted and died in the same year. If anyone comes across an answer, cheers.
     
  7. RedmanWasHere

    RedmanWasHere Brownlow Medallist

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    I wonder if Horrie (presumably a pet form of Horace) was related to John Annear.
     
  8. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    Looks like he did debut and die in the same year.
    Vic BDM record
    1938, 11318, Annear, Horace Lindsay, Annear Hector, Mitchell Elsie, Fitzroy, 20
    As I understand the records they were registered in quarters and this record seems to be in Q3 1938
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  9. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premiership Player

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    http://members.westnet.com.au/talltrees/resources/Cemetery.A-E.pdf

    Buried in the Clunes Cemetery, 11 December 1938 (aged 23).
     
  10. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    Thanks Daics/WhiteLane.
    I'm not sure why it didnt come up when I search VIC BDM. I did search again with Horace Annear and there he was. (I assume I had tried Horace earlier but maybe I hadn't).
    Many thanks. What a sad story. I need to look through Minute Books to find out more though, cause nothing appears to come up on Trove around that December 1938 date.
     
  11. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premiership Player

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    It would be nice to find out what happened to the poor fellow. I can't find anything on Trove either. Hopefully someone can come up with the answer.
     

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  12. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    Just checked the 1938 Seniors, and 1938 Reserves (and early 1939 Seniors/Reserves) minute books and no mention of his passing. The only note that he died was the 1938 Reserves AR which lists him as dead, but doesnt offer an explanation.
    Hmm, I'll add it to my little book of Richmond questions I need answered.

    Edit: Looks like this is the death info of his only sister - Rita Annear. She died in 2001, or 2009.
    So my only chance might be contact that side of the family
    https://www.myheritage.com/names/rita_annear

    Edit Looks like the Clunes Museum has a copy of his obit, so I've emailed them asking if it tells us anything about his passing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  13. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    Need some reassurance - as it impacts an upcoming Life Membership bestowal.
    Richmond had a player called Archibald McNair. He played VFA 1900- 1904.
    Now, it looks like he came from Sth Melb in 1900 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9539779
    That would therefore seem that he is this Arch McNair who played for Sth Melb 1898-1899 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_McNair

    At the same time, from 1900 onwards at the Richmond FC, we had a Committeeman, and Treasurer, who was made a Life Member in 1905 also called.. Archibald McNair.
    Now I assumed they were all the same person (ie: the richmond player was pulling double duty as also the richmond committeeman/treasurer).
    Until I realised the Sth Melb McNair died in 1929 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4007388

    So the Committeman 'McNair' at Richmond, couldn't be the 'VFA Player' for Richmond - because the Committeeman 'McNair' was still alive until 1960
    (Richmond's 1951 Annual Report says the club received Christmas greetings from 'our Life Member with the longest service in Archie McNair, elected to this honoured position in 1905'. ) And BDM shows he died in 1960

    So I just want to make sure that they are two separate people, who unrelated, have the same name.
    Is this correct:

    1.) The Sth Melb player of 1898-1899 - went and played with Richmond from 1900-1904. And that that player's full name is Archibald McKirdy McNair.(b: 1872, d: 1929)

    2.) Richmond's committeeman/treasurer from 1900-1911 is Archibald McIndoe McNair (b 1881 d: 1960).

    I guess what will reassure me that they are two different people is evidence as to where the 1900-1904 player went to AFTER Richmond.
    Cause if he is at another club, then he cant be the Richmond's treasurer until 1911.

    The alternate is that the Sth Melb 1898-1899 player ISN'T the Richmond VFA player of 1900-1904, and its just coincidence there is a permit for that name in 1900

    or

    The Sth Melb and Richmond player ARE the same person , and infact Wikipedia is incorrect and that player also became the Treasurer and lived to 1960, instead of dying in 1929 (That would mean he was 17 when he played with Sth Melb)

    Observation: Looking at Richmond's 1905 team photo, McNair is in the back (second from right) in suit and is labelled as Treasurer . http://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Richmond+Team+Photos
    If I compare that to the 1903 Punch photograph where a McNair is shown as a player , middle road second from the left, that do have striking similarities http://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Richmond+Team+Photos



    UPDATE: Richmond Minute Book April 1901 (handwritten) - on the Members of the Committee page, under 'Player Representatives' lists: A Edmonds, T Watson, C Bahen, A McNair.
    All of those men were players.

    Richmond Minute Book 1902 , page 1 List of Committee handwritten lists: Players: Backhouse, Bachen, Edmonds, A McNair Treasurer

    Richmond Annual Report 1909
    "In your hon. treasurer (Mr A McNair) you have a valued officer , one whose heart and soul has (both as a player, committeeman and hon. treasurer) ever been in the old Club.

    Right, so that pretty much seals the deal - the player 'McNair' for Richmond is also the treasurer 'McNair' for Richmond.
    Ergo.. he lived until 1960.

    So - have I made the wrong assumption based on the 1900 permit that the Sth Melb 'A McNair' is also the Richmond 'A McNair' ?
    If they are the same person - then the death date of 1929 attributed to Arch McNair is wrong, and should be 1960 (and therefore his birth date, middle name, is wrong as well)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  14. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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  15. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premiership Player

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    I can't find anything of real significance. The Herald said of McNair (when he was about to debut for South Melbourne in 1898) "McNair, from a junior team out Hawthorn way". https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980722&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

    In The Herald (May 11 1900) "The Richmond boys say that McNair will be the Association champion follower this year"
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=19000511&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

    It would be most surprising, with an A McNair going from South Melbourne to Richmond in 1900, and A McNair commencing his career with Richmond that year, if it wasn't the same person. Yet it does seem odd to me that he would stop playing after 1904 if he had been born in 1881, given that he was apparently a star player. Also, he supposedly was only 18-19 in 1900 when he commenced his off-field duties with Richmond, and this seems very young to me. Puzzling!
     
  16. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    So Ross Smith has shed some more light.
    Richmond's Archie McNair was a warehouseman, who then became a 'commercial traveller'.
    From the C.T.A booklet of 1960 there is an obituary that in part references:
    'Joined C.T.A in Victoria in 1911 representing McNaughton, Love and Co (softgood firm) until it closed in 1925. He then represented Williamstown Mills Pty Ltd until the ceased operation due to the depression in 1931. He then operated a commission business with various suppliers and manufacturers, including J & D Shaw. He was particularly well-known as an amateur boxer and footballer in his early days.
    He played both Association and League football for many years, mainly with Richmond. During that period he won the trophy for most outstanding rover in the entire metropolitan area, and in 1905 was made a life member of Richmond Football Club , where, apart from being a leading player , he was for several years treasurer of the club'

    Whats interesting is a clear reference to Association AND LEAGUE football.
    We know McNair played Association for Richmond, so it highly possible that his League career was also the Sth Melb career. If that's the case, then the AFL /Wiki have the wrong McNair.
    Richmond's McNair obit is located here in The Age in 1960.
    https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=kX41AAAAIBAJ&sjid=GKwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6986,3666731
     
  17. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    I looked this up last night and found nothing out of the ordinary for McNair. No references to his demise before world war 2. Moreover the record which was a south Melbourne centric local paper finishes in Trove in the fifties, and made no reference to him. It's not direct evidence but evidence by omission, in a sense.

    Also I never rely on dod data on wiki or AFL tables unless I can verify it from trove or BDM and contextual information. Too many times they've been wrong.

    The answer I came up with was that McNair lived a ripe old after football to a quite natural death due to old age.
     
  18. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    Also Rhett, no one it seems besides you has researched the VFA playing records of Richmond and such references that were made, were made from the point of view of the league player being an ex Richmond player, on an ad hoc basis, rather than he being a Richmond VFAplayer who also played league football.

    Bottom line is that no one has ever connected the dots before.
     
  19. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    I would be obliged if you could move the following posts from the "inaccuracy" thread to the "AFL date of death" thread.

    928 929 930 932 934 937 940 941 942 943 949 951 955 956964 973 974 976 1004 1011 1012 1013 1031 1032 1034 1035 1036 1037 1043 1044 1046 1047 1048 1049 and 1050

    I'm sorry that there are a few posts there to transfer but if you could transfer them that would be appreciated.
     
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  20. Gibbsy

    Gibbsy Moderator

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    Someone really should just make me a mod on this board/stats board :) :) :)
     
  21. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    Well we are a mischievous bunch, always causing troubles with our posts.
     
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  22. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    ..apologies in advance for a long post..
    I was looking at Jack and Bill Dalton who played for Fitzroy in early VFL days and something doesn’t add up
    Either:
    1) They are not brothers (as is claimed in Encyc of AFL footballers/Wikipedia/australianfootball.com) or
    2) One or both have been misidentified and listed dates of birth/death are incorrect.

    Jack Dalton
    Jack Dalton played 17 games in the VFA in 1896 for Fitzroy (ex-Fitzroy Juniors) and another 44 VFL games from 1897-1900
    Encyc of AFL Footballers names him as Jack G. Dalton; no DOB recorded; ex-Fitzroy Juniors
    Wikipedia: John George Dalton (15 April 1876 – 12 March 1923) – brother of Bill
    australianfootball.com: Jack Dalton; Born 15 April 1876; Died 12 March 1923 (aged 46)
    AFL Tables: Jack Dalton; Born 15 April 1876

    J. Dalton served for several years (1900-1907) on the Fitzroy Football Club committee.

    Looking at Victorian BDM the birth and death dates recorded indicate he was John George Dalton - a publican who ran the Jika Jika Hotel in Fitzroy (1903-1912), then was a licensed victualler in Flinders Lane, then a hotelkeeper in Sandringham.

    Looking at the whole immediate family shows Jack was the eldest of five children:

    John Dalton (1949–1890) m (1875) Margaret Manning (1857–1902)
    John George Dalton 1876–1923
    George Dalton 1877–
    Julia Veronica Dalton 1882–1949
    Robert Dalton 1886–1886
    Mary Ann Dalton 1888–1891

    Names of children are confirmed in death notice for Margaret in 1902 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9086531
    > There is no brother named Bill for this Jack Dalton

    William Dalton
    Encyc of AFL Footballers: named as William Dalton; no DOB; “Jack’s brother”
    Wikipedia: William ‘Bill’ Dalton (23 April 1872 – 14 December 1955) – brother of Jack; Original team Albert Park Juniors
    australianfootball.com: Bill Dalton; Born 11 March 1876; Died 14 December 1955 (aged 79) *note different DOB
    AFL Tables: Bill Dalton; Born 23-Apr-1872

    The only William Dalton with a birth registered in Victoria in 1872 was born to Patrick Dalton and Johanna Costelloe in Melbourne
    ..but this William Dalton died in 1899 and cannot be the Fitzroy player (who played until 1902).

    If the date of death is correct, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article71786485 we get full name William Joseph Dalton

    Looking at Victorian BDM the death date recorded indicate he was the third child of a large family:

    William Dalton (1853–1914) m (1873) Anna Brophy (1854–1925)
    John Dalton 1873–1943
    Margaret Dalton 1875–1875
    William Joseph Dalton 1876–1955
    Marcus James Dalton 1878–1925
    + 7 other children..
    This family moved to Emerald Hill (South Melb) in about 1880 – Albert Park juniors would have been a local club so this makes sense

    Questions
    Were they brothers? I found one ref in The Herald to them being brothers –https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18990728&printsec=frontpage&hl=en but could find nothing on Trove.
    Is there any evidence linking Jack Dalton the footballer to the John G. Dalton above?
    Is there any evidence linking Bill Dalton the footballer to the William Joseph Dalton above?
     
  23. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    Jack Dalton of Fitzroy football club ( whoever he was ) appears to have been alive in 1915:
    Punch
    26 August 1915
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138701042

    He was also a publican.

    Sporting Globe 19 January 1935

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article181681332

    I'm not sure "Bill" was actually William though.

    See this article from the Australasian of 23 February 1924

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article140749498

    which suggests "Bill" Dalton was still alive in 1924. Moreover the use of "Bill" instead of Bill ( as compared with say the use of Jim O'Meara in the same article suggests that Bill may not have been his given first name).

    If so, they could have been brothers.

    This article here from the Argus of 6 August 1949


    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22769730

    inferentially suggests that they were brothers, note the references to Mick and Jim Grace ( who were brothers), Paddy hickey ( brother to Con) and then to Jack and Bill Dalton.

    Then again this contemporary report of 31 July 1899
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202624746


    refers to the "two Daltons being absentees" but then refers to the "brothers Grace".
    There is one piece of evidence, that is essentially, evidence by omission .

    I have previously posted on this board extracts from the 1934 sporting globe where they listed families ( brothers, sons etc) who played league football. The Graces are mentioned as are numerous other families of players from Fitzroy ( and including some where one brother played for one team and another played for Fitzroy).

    The lists were compiled over the course of several months with contributions by readers so essentially it was like one of our threads :).

    It at no point refers to the Daltons as being brothers., which would be surprising given they were premiership players.
     
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  24. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    Interestingly this report of the Fitzroy City Press has a Dalton coming from Fitzroy Juniors in 1896.

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65661106

    There appears to be only 1 Dalton in 1897 at Fitzroy. In 1897 J Dalton donates money to the club

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65695220


    in 1898 both J and W Dalton appear in reports.

    Indeed W Dalton was the new man in 1898 cf the report of the Australasian

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65695220

    He was from Albert Park Juniors

    Australasian 14 May 1898

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138666616


    and both Daltons are in this 1899 premiership teamshot.

    Weekly times 23 September 1899.
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article223171030

    Under whatever search criteria I use, I can't find anything between 1895 to 1900 to find a report they were brothers but I can find numerous references to the brother Grace and other brothers.
     
  25. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    More on W Dalton.

    He went on to play for North Melbourne in 1903

    cf Age 2 July 1903 permits

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197224622

    and appears to have been the squad in 1905

    Australasian 13 May 1905
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139806149

    and have played in 1906

    North Melbourne Courier 22 June 1906

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108827025


    Probably unrelated but William John Dalton is was the husband of one Mrs Adelaide Dalton who died in 1953 aged 76. William John Dalton was still alive at the time of her death .
    Horsham Times

    19 October 1953

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article72773911