Oh cool. Hadn't spotted the birth notice before.
Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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Oh cool. Hadn't spotted the birth notice before.
Yes, Rhett. Please do so.
Alright, I've copied it into my email chain
So this is one from very left field.
One of Richmond's Vice Presidents from 1900-1905 is Miss A Tabulo.
Now Ive discovered she is Annie Maria Tabulo who was the licensee of a few hotel included the Surrey Hotel, in Lennon St Richmond in 1901 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227541566
So that explains why she is a Vice President of the club at that stage - owing a hotel thats only a few hundred metres from the club... but the problem is I can't find a single thing about her after 1902. No idea where she went, when she died, if she got married. She just seems to disappear on Trove. I know I'm missing something , but what?
One of Richmond's Vice Presidents from 1900-1905 is Miss A Tabulo.
Now Ive discovered she is Annie Maria Tabulo who was the licensee of a few hotel included the Surrey Hotel, in Lennon St Richmond in 1901 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227541566
So that explains why she is a Vice President of the club at that stage - owing a hotel thats only a few hundred metres from the club... but the problem is I can't find a single thing about her after 1902. No idea where she went, when she died, if she got married. She just seems to disappear on Trove. I know I'm missing something , but what?
GreyCrow
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This might help
VIC BDM have a marriage of a Hannah Tabulo to a John Bricnan/Brennan in 1904. The reason I mention it is the licence holder of the Surrey is charged for Sunday Trading in 1911. Name is Annie M Brennan http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197452661
And done. VIC BDM then have a death of an Annie Brennan nee Tableau in 1939
Registration year1939
Personal information
Family name BRENNAN
Given names Annie
SexFemale
Father's name TABLEAU Unknown
Mother's name Margaret (Unknown)
Place of birth UNKNOWN
Place of death MONT PARK
Age71
Here's the death notice:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205638292
Okay I think I am following this. The link you sent took me to1887 . So I searched for 1911 and found her being charged for Sunday trading.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196179386
So are you saying that she was the Hannah Tabulo who married John ?
Because the death notice Daics has posted shows her husband was the late John Patrick Brennan
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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Ahh I had clicked on the earlier link then thought I clicked on 1911 link, my apologies.
In VIC BDM if you search Tabulo you will see a Hannah marry a John Bricnan in 1904. It wasnt until I turned the page I saw the marriage to John Brennan in 1904 and assumed typo on certificate so a duplicate made. Its why my above had both Bricnan/Brennan alongside
Dont mind my shortcuts, it was all straight in my head
( I clicked on to save 1887 link because the above para used Henningham as name, and given Bill hennington I wanted to save it for future reference)
I'm still a bit puzzled myself, GC?! Was it really meant to say "Hannah" on that site, or was it also wrong and it should have just been "Annie"?!Ahh I had clicked on the earlier link then thought I clicked on 1911 link, my apologies.
In VIC BDM if you search Tabulo you will see a Hannah marry a John Bricnan in 1904. It wasnt until I turned the page I saw the marriage to John Brennan in 1904 and assumed typo on certificate so a duplicate made. Its why my above had both Bricnan/Brennan alongside
Dont mind my shortcuts, it was all straight in my head
( I clicked on to save 1887 link because the above para used Henningham as name, and given Bill hennington I wanted to save it for future reference)
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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I am happy with Hannah. The Death notice states a Margaret listed as mother.
Hannah is interchangeable with Anna/Annie . A publican would be more likely to be Annie . The logical trail follows for me. One thing to understand is that the ''informant'' for a Death is only dealing with as much info as they know. ie son daughter priest etc. If a grandfather dies early the children may only know Grandma Margaret etc.
So in the earlier events we have the Family info ie Parents call her Hannah , Married name parent/s use Hannah once again. Though at the time I see she was near 37 years old. She would have known her formal birth name and provided it. On her death though she was/may have been known as Annie for so long thats what was provided.
Everything follows Birth and Death match Husbands name and mothers name. Age at death matches (very closely) birth year, maiden name is also phonetically a match Tableau/Tabulo
Hope that makes sense
A branch of the family tree has been found (with photo!) on Ancestry by one of my twitter followers, so they have placed a message into the branch owner to hopefully gather more information.
Thanks. Yeah, I'm not doubting that you ended up with the right person, just a bit unsure with the (seemingly) odd first name!I am happy with Hannah. The Death notice states a Margaret listed as mother.
Hannah is interchangeable with Anna/Annie . A publican would be more likely to be Annie . The logical trail follows for me. One thing to understand is that the ''informant'' for a Death is only dealing with as much info as they know. ie son daughter priest etc. If a grandfather dies early the children may only know Grandma Margaret etc.
So in the earlier events we have the Family info ie Parents call her Hannah , Married name parent/s use Hannah once again. Though at the time I see she was near 37 years old. She would have known her formal birth name and provided it. On her death though she was/may have been known as Annie for so long thats what was provided.
Everything follows Birth and Death match Husbands name and mothers name. Age at death matches (very closely) birth year, maiden name is also phonetically a match Tableau/Tabulo
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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Chasing Charlie McCartney I have come across information that has him at South in 1896 , 1 year earlier than records ie
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227745683
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108477984
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108477972
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227745683
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108477984
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108477972
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Mark Pennings has him down as playing 18 of 19 games for South in 1896 (and coming from West Melbourne at the start of the season)
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Stumbled across Pat McNulty who played a solitary game for Carlton in 1902.
wikipedia, AFL Tables, australianfootball all have DOB of 24 Apr 1876 and Blueseum just says 1876 (Fitzroy)
The Victorian BDM record that matches this is:
Name: Patrick McNulty
Birth Date: Abt 1876
Birth Place: Fitz, Victoria
Registration Year: 1876
Father: Michael Henry McNulty
Mother: Sarah Keogh
Registration Number: 23006
...however this man seems to die in 1899!
Name: Pat Jos McNulty
Birth Year: abt 1876
Age: 23
Death Place: West Melbourne, Victoria
Father's name: McNulty Mich Hy
Mother's name: Sarah Keagh
Registration Year: 1899
Registration Number: 15175
DOD in Wikipedia/australianfootball.com is 6 Oct 1904 which I suspect is
Name: Patrick Mcnulty
Death Date: 1904
Death Place: Broken Hill, New South Wales
Father's name: Michael
Mother's name: Maria
Registration Year: 1904
Registration Number: 12560
who was born in South Australia in 1872
Name: Patrick Mcnulty
Birth Date: 25 Feb 1872
Birth Place: Inchiquin
Registration Place: Clare, South Australia, Australia
Father: Michael Mcnulty
Mother: Maria Kenny
but I can't find anything to confirm who the actual player was. He doesn't seem to be named in any match reports.
wikipedia, AFL Tables, australianfootball all have DOB of 24 Apr 1876 and Blueseum just says 1876 (Fitzroy)
The Victorian BDM record that matches this is:
Name: Patrick McNulty
Birth Date: Abt 1876
Birth Place: Fitz, Victoria
Registration Year: 1876
Father: Michael Henry McNulty
Mother: Sarah Keogh
Registration Number: 23006
...however this man seems to die in 1899!
Name: Pat Jos McNulty
Birth Year: abt 1876
Age: 23
Death Place: West Melbourne, Victoria
Father's name: McNulty Mich Hy
Mother's name: Sarah Keagh
Registration Year: 1899
Registration Number: 15175
DOD in Wikipedia/australianfootball.com is 6 Oct 1904 which I suspect is
Name: Patrick Mcnulty
Death Date: 1904
Death Place: Broken Hill, New South Wales
Father's name: Michael
Mother's name: Maria
Registration Year: 1904
Registration Number: 12560
who was born in South Australia in 1872
Name: Patrick Mcnulty
Birth Date: 25 Feb 1872
Birth Place: Inchiquin
Registration Place: Clare, South Australia, Australia
Father: Michael Mcnulty
Mother: Maria Kenny
but I can't find anything to confirm who the actual player was. He doesn't seem to be named in any match reports.
Harry Hook
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I posted this on the AFL DOB and DOD thread but it probably belongs here.
"This bloke Charlie McCartney just gets more and more mysterious.
AFL tables has him playing for Essendon in 1899 in rounds 2,3, 4 and 7 (against St Kilda, South Melbourne, Carlton and Collingwood) (as does Wikipedia)
Essendon's past player profile of him says this:
"
Number(s):
Games: 3
Goals: 0
Previous Clubs: West Melbourne/South Melbourne
Charlie McCartney was a half-back who came to Essendon from South Melbourne where he played 14 games in 1897.
His only games for Essendon were in Rounds 7, 8 and 9, 1899, for losses to Collingwood and Fitzroy and a win over St Kilda."
So Essendon has him as playing 3 games later in the season against Collingwood, Fitzroy and St Kilda.
So we have a dispute.
So what do the contemporary reports say?
On about 1 June 1899, McCartney was cleared from South Melbourne to Essendon.
The Argus 1 June 1899
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974
The Age 19 June 1899 says he played against Collingwood.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202624980
Now the fun part. As I mentioned AFL tables has him playing rounds 2, 3 and 4 as well as the Collingwood game.
Round 4 in 1899 was the Essendon - Carlton game played on .............27 May 1899, before the clearance I have included above.
I doubt that Essendon would play him without a clearance and he was listed as a new player in the Essendon - Collingwood match report so I doubt he would have played in those first 3 games he is supposed to have played. Which means AFL records is possibly wrong as to number of games for Essendon and when they were played.
So are the Essendon records correct. More to the point, the date of data may be only the first problem with McCartney's data in the AFL's records.
I reckon there is an issue here.
"This bloke Charlie McCartney just gets more and more mysterious.
AFL tables has him playing for Essendon in 1899 in rounds 2,3, 4 and 7 (against St Kilda, South Melbourne, Carlton and Collingwood) (as does Wikipedia)
Essendon's past player profile of him says this:
"
Number(s):
Games: 3
Goals: 0
Previous Clubs: West Melbourne/South Melbourne
Charlie McCartney was a half-back who came to Essendon from South Melbourne where he played 14 games in 1897.
His only games for Essendon were in Rounds 7, 8 and 9, 1899, for losses to Collingwood and Fitzroy and a win over St Kilda."
So Essendon has him as playing 3 games later in the season against Collingwood, Fitzroy and St Kilda.
So we have a dispute.
So what do the contemporary reports say?
On about 1 June 1899, McCartney was cleared from South Melbourne to Essendon.
The Argus 1 June 1899
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974
The Age 19 June 1899 says he played against Collingwood.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202624980
Now the fun part. As I mentioned AFL tables has him playing rounds 2, 3 and 4 as well as the Collingwood game.
Round 4 in 1899 was the Essendon - Carlton game played on .............27 May 1899, before the clearance I have included above.
I doubt that Essendon would play him without a clearance and he was listed as a new player in the Essendon - Collingwood match report so I doubt he would have played in those first 3 games he is supposed to have played. Which means AFL records is possibly wrong as to number of games for Essendon and when they were played.
So are the Essendon records correct. More to the point, the date of data may be only the first problem with McCartney's data in the AFL's records.
I reckon there is an issue here.
I think the details on the Essendon website are almost certainly incorrect. As for the permit situation, hard to know what's gone on there!!
The Herald has him playing in the rd. 2 game:- "Essendon will play McCarthy, formerly of South and West Melbourne, in their team to-morrow"
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18990519&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (May 19 1899)
McCaughey gets named in the match report line-up:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18990520&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (May 20)
McCartney is in the rd. 3 team:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18990524&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (May 24)
McCarkey is named as having played in the rd. 4 side:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18990527&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (May 27)
RedmanWasHere
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The Real McCartney may not be that fair dinkum.
Agree that it's a head scratcher.
Did this guy exist?
Agree that it's a head scratcher.
Did this guy exist?
Harry Hook
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Do we know he played?
Of all things that raise a doubt, it's the lack of a clearance.
Essendon finished 4th in 1899 so if there was any doubt about eligibility of a player, you would have imagine there would have been protests.
Harry Hook
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I have another 1897 St Kilda player query.
Daniel Collins.
AFL tables has his DOB as 10 January 1871 while Wikipedia has his DOB as 22 August 1872 and gives a DOD of 6 July 1872.
We are not without some evidence of the player because of this article of the Geelong Advertiser of 26 March 1898.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150374288
Seems he was somewhat of a miscreant, as well as a publican, and a warrant had been issued for his arrest for having left Victoria during court proceedings.
What makes this even more interesting is that Collins is recorded as having played 6 games in 1897 and 1 in 1898 on 24 May 1898 v Fitzroy, which if a warrant had been issued for his arrest 3 months earlier, must be the subject of some query.
So who in fact was he?
Daniel Collins.
AFL tables has his DOB as 10 January 1871 while Wikipedia has his DOB as 22 August 1872 and gives a DOD of 6 July 1872.
We are not without some evidence of the player because of this article of the Geelong Advertiser of 26 March 1898.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150374288
Seems he was somewhat of a miscreant, as well as a publican, and a warrant had been issued for his arrest for having left Victoria during court proceedings.
What makes this even more interesting is that Collins is recorded as having played 6 games in 1897 and 1 in 1898 on 24 May 1898 v Fitzroy, which if a warrant had been issued for his arrest 3 months earlier, must be the subject of some query.
So who in fact was he?
Looks like the legal matter was cleared up just a few days later: "This morning he appeared at the City Court and explained that he had simply gone to Adelaide on a visit in the most open manner, and was on his way back when arrested at Ballarat. Under the circumstances the bench decided to strike out the charge, and accused left the court with his friend."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215220822 (2 April 1898)
This article says he was 35 at the time of that legal issue, hopefully they got that wrong!!
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191476206 (26 March 1898)
AustralianFootball.com has:-
Born
22 August 1872
Died
6 July 1925 (aged 52)
Harry Hook
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The reason I quote the report is that it gives us some biographical data on the player.
My query is with the DOD and DOB.
If he was 35 at the time of the issue in 1898, then he was born in 1863\4 not 1872.
Also given he was a publican in 1898, that would mean that if the 1872 DOB is correct or the 1871 DOB is correct, then he is 26 or 27 at the time he was a publican, which may be on the younger side. Is 35 more believable. Possibly.
