Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

This Davidson one has me scratching my head.

As I see it we have 3 options:

(a) Alex Davidson played in both 1897 -1898:
(b) Irving Davidson played in both 1897 -1898; or
(c) Alex Davidson played in some games, say 1897 and the first game of 1898 and Irving say the last 2 games of 1898.

There is a mystery here.

I had to go shopping and missed most of the fun! The Encyclopedia says of Alex M. Davidson "Ex-Albion United player who played in the VFA with Fitzroy in 1896." The book has him playing a total of 3 games in 1897-98, the AFL Historical Stats website has 3 games played in both of those years (which AFL Tables has). This does suggest another 3 games for an A. Davidson at Fitzroy "showed up" somewhere along the line, so there seems to be a real possibility there were two of them playing back then.

This has Davidson as an 1896 recruit from Albion United:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65661106 (30 Apr 1896)

It would be handy to find a permit or two, or at least something that tells us that another Davidson had started playing for the club!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65696793 (12 May 1898)

"and Davidson, were quite up to last year's excellence." This obviously suggests the 1897 player was there at the start of 1898. Edit: But that was a pre-season practice game, ironically (as future posts show) against North Melbourne.

An Irving Davidson played for St Kilda 1951-54, there'd have to be a chance he was related to the earlier player with the same name.

 

[35Daicos]

This Davidson one has me scratching my head.

Davidson plays the 2nd of his 3 1898 games for Fitzroy in June 1898 against South Melbourne , a month after the Ormond game.

As I see it we have 3 options:

(a) Alex Davidson played in both 1897 -1898:
(b) Irving Davidson played in both 1897 -1898; or
(c) Alex Davidson played in some games, say 1897 and the first game of 1898 and Irving say the last 2 games of 1898.

There is a mystery here.

Interesting! Looks like Davidson of Fitzroy went to North Melbourne early in 1898:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980520&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (May 20 1898)

The North Melbourne team has been made heavier this season, ~~~ have secured the heavyweights Paton (Carlton) and Davison (Fitzroy).

If he did indeed cross to North early that year (he's named in the team that week so seems likely) that would leave the way clear for another Davidson to come to Fitzroy. The Fitzroy player was said to be 175cm and 77kg, hardly a heavyweight.

Also: "Davidson, late of Fitzroy" ||| http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138667090/11313968 (28 May 1898)

 

[the croucher]

I had to go shopping and missed most of the fun! The Encyclopedia says of Alex M. Davidson "Ex-Albion United player who played in the VFA with Fitzroy in 1896." The book has him playing a total of 3 games in 1897-98, the AFL Historical Stats website has 3 games played in both of those years (which AFL Tables has). This does suggest another 3 games for an A. Davidson at Fitzroy "showed up" somewhere along the line, so there seems to be a real possibility there were two of them playing back then.

This has Davidson as an 1896 recruit from Albion United:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65661106 (30 Apr 1896)

It would be handy to find a permit or two, or at least something that tells us that another Davidson had started playing for the club!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65696793 (12 May 1898)

"and Davidson, were quite up to last year's excellence." This obviously suggests the 1897 player was there at the start of 1898.

An Irving Davidson played for St Kilda 1951-54, there'd have to be a chance he was related to the earlier player with the same name.

Yes, you'd assume there is a family connection somewhere there, but post-WW2 player doesn't look to be a son of the Reverend Davidson - well not by the list in death notice on this page
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zZ1VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5qwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7363,829418

 

[Harry Hook]

This report of the Australasian of 14 May 1898 infers that the Fitzroy Davidson was not new.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138666616


What complicates this even more is that there was in 1898, a Jack Davidson who played for Melbourne (later South Melbourne in 1900) who started off with the Albert Park Juniors and a George Davidson who played for South Melbourne apparently played for South Melbourne between 1897 to 1900.

Now in an entirely unrelated query, Davidson (of South Melbourne) was granted a permit to play for South from Collingwood in or about 21 May 1898.

Record 21 May 1898.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108484043

Although that seems to be contradicted by this report of the Record of 31 July 1897

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482715

which stated that Davidson of South Melbourne was from Collingwood and played in 1895.

Then however you have this letter to the editor of the Record of 31 July 1897

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482700

which complains about South Melbourne taking away F ( not G or J) Davidson away from Albert Park Juniors for a game. The game complained about would appear to be the SMFC v Geelong game of 24 July 1897 which was the first of the 2 games that G Davidson is said to have played for SMFC in that year.

What makes things a little more interesting is that Jack Davidson is said to have been recruited from Albert Park Juniors from Melbourne in 1898 and goes to South Melbourne in 1900.

At the very least there is a query about the initial of the SMFC player (is it F or George). But it is equally possibly that there may be more than 1 error.

See what happens when you open a can of worms about pre 1900 players.

 

[Harry Hook]

Interesting! Looks like Davidson of Fitzroy went to North Melbourne early in 1898:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980520 (May 20 1898)

The North Melbourne team has been made heavier this season, ~~~ have secured the heavyweights Paton (Carlton) and Davison (Fitzroy).

If he did indeed cross to North early that year (he's named in the team that week so seems likely) that would leave the way clear for another Davidson to come to Fitzroy. The Fitzroy player was said to be 175cm and 77kg, hardly a heavyweight.

I'd suggest that Alex possibly played the first game in 1898 and Arthur Irving the last 2 later games in 1898.

Which means the record may be Alex Davidson 4 games and A. Irving Davidson 2 games.

 

[35Daicos]

I'd suggest that Alex possibly played the first game in 1898 and Arthur Irving the last 2 later games in 1898.

Which means the record may be Alex Davidson 4 games and A. Irving Davidson 2 games.

Looks very likely!

 

[Harry Hook]

Looks very likely!

Further newspaper report of ironically enough a NMFC v Fitzroy game of the Fitzroy City Press of 12 May 1898

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65696793

suggests that Alex Davidson was still playing with Fitzroy as at 12 May 1898.

The contentious game for me is the round 1 game of 1898 between Fitzroy v Essendon on 14 May 1898.

AFL tables has Alex Davidson playing that game.

This report of the North Melbourne Courier of 20 May 1898

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article103236374

in referring to the opening game of the season between NMFC v Richmond played presumably on 14 May 1898 says that Davidson at centre half forward (remember A Irving Davidson played half back ( team positions were more rigid than they are now and utility\swing position players far less common) and Davidson scored.

The Australasian of 21 May 1898

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138666756

refers to both games. Vis-a-vis NM v Richmond, it does not refer to Davidson but vis-a-vis Fitzroy v Essendon it refers to Davidson defending.

Indeed the Sportsman of 24 May 1898

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227741951

comments on the NMFC side, refers to Davidson in saying it had a great forward line.

So a Davidson did play for Fitzroy in that first game.

I suspect the complete line up of the Fitzroy for that first game as compared to the complete lineups for the Fitzroy games of 1897 and 1898 would show that Davidson of 1897 played in the forward line and Davidson of 1898 Fitzroy played in the backline and that the line up of NM for 1898 has already shown Davidson played in the forward line.

 

[35Daicos]

Further newspaper report of ironically enough a NMFC v Fitzroy game of the Fitzroy City Press of 12 May 1898

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65696793

suggests that Alex Davidson was still playing with Fitzroy as at 12 May 1898.

The contentious game for me is the round 1 game of 1898 between Fitzroy v Essendon on 14 May 1898.

AFL tables has Alex Davidson playing that game.

This report of the North Melbourne Courier of 20 May 1898

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article103236374

in referring to the opening game of the season between NMFC v Richmond played presumably on 14 May 1898 says that Davidson at centre half forward (remember A Irving Davidson played half back ( team positions were more rigid than they are now and utility\swing position players far less common) and Davidson scored.

The Australasian of 21 May 1898

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138666756

refers to both games. Vis-a-vis NM v Richmond, it does not refer to Davidson but vis-a-vis Fitzroy v Essendon it refers to Davidson defending.

Indeed the Sportsman of 24 May 1898

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227741951

comments on the NMFC side, refers to Davidson in saying it had a great forward line.

So a Davidson did play for Fitzroy in that first game.

I suspect the complete line up of the Fitzroy for that first game as compared to the complete lineups for the Fitzroy games of 1897 and 1898 would show that Davidson of 1897 played in the forward line and Davidson of 1898 Fitzroy played in the backline and that the line up of NM for 1898 has already shown Davidson played in the forward line.

I got the impression from reading 1896 articles that Davidson was playing as a forward, he may well have been a taller/heavier player by the look of things than the Davidson who came along later in 1898.

Davidson played back for the first game of 1898:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191508817

Stan Reid played for Fitzroy in 1897-98, and was also a Presbyterian minister. Sadly, he was killed in the Boer War in 1901.

 

[35Daicos]

I suspect the complete line up of the Fitzroy for that first game as compared to the complete lineups for the Fitzroy games of 1897 and 1898 would show that Davidson of 1897 played in the forward line and Davidson of 1898 Fitzroy played in the backline and that the line up of NM for 1898 has already shown Davidson played in the forward line.

I still can't find anything that straight out says the Davidson playing for Fitzroy in 1898 was a different player to the one who was there in 1897 (and 1896), but since we know the North Melbourne recruit was playing as early as May 14 (1898) that must leave us with Arthur Irving Davidson playing all three games for Fitzroy that year.

 

[Harry Hook]

Interesting! Looks like Davidson of Fitzroy went to North Melbourne early in 1898:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980520 (May 20 1898)

The North Melbourne team has been made heavier this season, ~~~ have secured the heavyweights Paton (Carlton) and Davison (Fitzroy).

If he did indeed cross to North early that year (he's named in the team that week so seems likely) that would leave the way clear for another Davidson to come to Fitzroy. The Fitzroy player was said to be 175cm and 77kg, hardly a heavyweight.

In my mind, this post may be the confirmation needed.

Everything in A Irving's biography I posted first has been verified and it specifically said that Irving Richardson had played for Fitzroy in 1898.

The 1900 report confirmed he'd played for Fitzroy so those games must have been before 1900.

What do others think.

 

[Harry Hook]

Even the Fitzroy press confirms that A Irving Davidson was an ex player:

Fitzroy City Press 18 September 1908

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65664605

Also confirmation that Alex Davidson in 1897 appears to have been from Albion United. Here is the FCP of 30 April 1896

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65661106

 

[Harry Hook]

I've got another possible inaccuracy. Barney Carr, the great centreman of St Kilda in the 1920s.

Wikipedia, AFL tables, AFL forum have his DoB as 27 August 1897, making him 23 when he debuted in 1921 and Wikipedia gives his DOD as 19 January 1971 making him 73 when he died.

All good except for this article of the Sporting Globe of 5 July 1924 which is a contemporary report of the player

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article185067055

It says that he was born in Melbourne Ports 24 years before ( ie in 1900 or 1899) gives his playing history at Prahran in some detail and stood out for a year. this would also change his debut year.

This article also refers to Barney Carr under his photo as "Barney" Carr, indicating that Barney was not his real name though.

Moreover this article of the Sporting Globe of 4 July 1923
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184809427

gives his height etc and says he was then 24, which suggests a birthdate of 1900 or 1899.
That's 2 references by the Sporting Globe in different years suggesting and 1899 or 1900 birthdate.

My attention to Barney was drawn by this article of the Sporting Globe of 12 November 1932

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189119706

which refers to candidates for the St Kilda Football Club and refers to C. O. Carr a "brilliant centre" and gives his photo which resembles that of Barney Carr's picture when on VFL duty in Wikipedia.

The Australian Football biography unhelpfully refers to Barney's real name as being Barney which sadly is too usual.

At the very least, every recorded AFL stats\biography site might have his DOB wrong but at worst the mistake could extend to his DOD. The Saints website has his details as C. O. "Barney" Carr but gives the same birth date as 27 August 1897

You would imagine that someone has gone through this exercise before but i is one that is easily resolved by the geneologists amongst us.

 

[rbartlett]

Even the Fitzroy press confirms that A Irving Davidson was an ex player:

May I suggest once we've agreed on the outcome of the Davidson research - that it is emailed to Stephen R by someone, separately from the DOB/DOD email that I am collating.

 

[Harry Hook]

May I suggest once we've agreed on the outcome of the Davidson research - that it is emailed to Stephen R by someone, separately from the DOB/DOD email that I am collating.

Sure. I'm happy for any of the other people, if they are satisfied of the data, to collate the stuff and send it to the AFL. I'm happy in my anonymity.

 

[GreyCrow]

I've got another possible inaccuracy. Barney Carr, the great centreman of St Kilda in the 1920s.

Wikipedia, AFL tables, AFL forum have his DoB as 27 August 1897, making him 23 when he debuted in 1921 and Wikipedia gives his DOD as 19 January 1971 making him 73 when he died.

All good except for this article of the Sporting Globe of 5 July 1924 which is a contemporary report of the player

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article185067055

It says that he was born in Melbourne Ports 24 years before ( ie in 1900 or 1899) gives his playing history at Prahran in some detail and stood out for a year. this would also change his debut year.

This article also refers to Barney Carr under his photo as "Barney" Carr, indicating that Barney was not his real name though.

Moreover this article of the Sporting Globe of 4 July 1923
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184809427

gives his height etc and says he was then 24, which suggests a birthdate of 1900 or 1899.
That's 2 references by the Sporting Globe in different years suggesting and 1899 or 1900 birthdate.

My attention to Barney was drawn by this article of the Sporting Globe of 12 November 1932

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189119706

which refers to candidates for the St Kilda Football Club and refers to C. O. Carr a "brilliant centre" and gives his photo which resembles that of Barney Carr's picture when on VFL duty in Wikipedia.

The Australian Football biography unhelpfully refers to Barney's real name as being Barney which sadly is too usual.

At the very least, every recorded AFL stats\biography site might have his DOB wrong but at worst the mistake could extend to his DOD. The Saints website has his details as C. O. "Barney" Carr but gives the same birth date as 27 August 1897

You would imagine that someone has gone through this exercise before but i is one that is easily resolved by the geneologists amongst us.

Family BDM details

A Charles Oliver Carr born 1897 to Laurence and Rosetta Carr

Rosetta Carr passed in 1952 and her obit mentions her children http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205403418

Charles is mentioned with (Barney) in brackets

Charles Oliver Carr dies in 1971

 

[35Daicos]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165148370 (14 May 1921)

Here's his permit:- Charles Carr, Prahran to St. Kilda;

 

[Harry Hook]

Family BDM details

A Charles Oliver Carr born 1897 to Laurence and Rosetta Carr

Rosetta Carr passed in 1952 and her obit mentions her children http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205403418

Charles is mentioned with (Barney) in brackets

Charles Oliver Carr dies in 1971

I've no difficulty accepting that but then how did the Sporting Globe get his age wrong two years running?

 

[GreyCrow]

I've no difficulty accepting that but then how did the Sporting Globe get his age wrong two years running?

The 1st reporter gets it wrong the second or same reporter uses old , already printed, details.

Similar to me using a '' solid source'' and always using it to post DOBs and DODs.

 

[rbartlett]

I've no difficulty accepting that but then how did the Sporting Globe get his age wrong two years running?

Sorry just catching up on this... am I putting Carr on the DOB email list ? Or is it still under research

 

[rbartlett]

I've come across a lead for 'Jack' Cathie dob/dod who played for Richmond VFA 1900-1903 (incl 1902 premiership year).
Hidden away in a filing cabinet in the corner of the Richmond Archive was a handwritten scribble that he may be 'John Sylvester Cathie', born 1877, died 29 October 1948 in Burwood. Enlisted 17/4/1916 - 16/3/1918. Im yet to find the final missing puzzle connecting the two , but if you stumble across anything, keep me posted.

 

[35Daicos]

I've come across a lead for 'Jack' Cathie dob/dod who played for Richmond VFA 1900-1903 (incl 1902 premiership year).
Hidden away in a filing cabinet in the corner of the Richmond Archive was a handwritten scribble that he may be 'John Sylvester Cathie', born 1877, died 29 October 1948 in Burwood. Enlisted 17/4/1916 - 16/3/1918. Im yet to find the final missing puzzle connecting the two , but if you stumble across anything, keep me posted.

I've come across a lead for 'Jack' Cathie dob/dod who played for Richmond VFA 1900-1903 (incl 1902 premiership year).
Hidden away in a filing cabinet in the corner of the Richmond Archive was a handwritten scribble that he may be 'John Sylvester Cathie', born 1877, died 29 October 1948 in Burwood. Enlisted 17/4/1916 - 16/3/1918. Im yet to find the final missing puzzle connecting the two , but if you stumble across anything, keep me posted.

I'd say this bloke (who played for Melbourne and was a well-known league official) is his brother:- http://demonwiki.org/George+Cathie
DOB: 2 May 1876
Died: 6 September 1958

Event Death
Event registration number 10742
Registration year 1958

Personal information
Family name CATHIE
Given names George James
Sex Male
Father's name CATHIE Robert
Mother's name Emily (Noy)
Place of birth MELBOURNE
Place of death HAWTHORN
Age 82
=====================
Event Death
Event registration number 11947
Registration year 1948

Personal information
Family name CATHIE
Given names Sylvester John
Sex Male
Father's name CATHIE Robert
Mother's name Emily (Noy)
Place of birth MELBOURNE
Place of death BURWOOD
Age 71

 

[35Daicos]

I've come across a lead for 'Jack' Cathie dob/dod who played for Richmond VFA 1900-1903 (incl 1902 premiership year).
Hidden away in a filing cabinet in the corner of the Richmond Archive was a handwritten scribble that he may be 'John Sylvester Cathie', born 1877, died 29 October 1948 in Burwood. Enlisted 17/4/1916 - 16/3/1918. Im yet to find the final missing puzzle connecting the two , but if you stumble across anything, keep me posted.

His army records say "When aged 21 had to give up football on account of straining his heart." I don't think that adds up age-wise but I'd be amazed if it's not the same person. Seems that he was SJ or Sylvester John.

There was an SJ Cathie involved at Leopold Football Club at that time (the club George came from) so that may be an issue.

 

[rbartlett]

More scribbles found in the filing cabinet at Richmond. (There's quite a few)
William Ernest Fildes played for Richmond in 1906-07. From that I've got his DOB year and DOD year, but can't quite find his exact death notice.
I know it was 1939.


Event registration number11156
Registration year1939

Personal information
Family nameFILDES
Given namesWilliam Ernest

SexMale
Father's nameFILDES William James
Mother's nameAnn (Pennington)
Place of birthCARLTON VICTORIA
Place of deathNORTHCOTE
Age52

 

[rbartlett]

More scribbles found.
James "Jimmy' Dobson who played for Richmond VFA 1895-1897 (from St Ignatius, and looks like came from Melb FC) is listed in the scribbles as serving in WW1 from 11/11/1915 - 16/7/1917 as a Private, although 'Medically Unfit Senility' I never had him on my War list. I can't find any record in MB or AR of him at war - so if anyone ever connected the dots, keep me posted.

George Gibson played for Richmond and Essendon.
Wikipedia says his name is George Stormouth Henry Gibson, so too AFL, and Harder Than Football, and his war record (936) have him as George H Gibson. But I notice in VIC BDM he is registered as Stormouth George Henry Gibson., but the his VIC Death Cert says George Stormouth Henry Gibson

We have a C. Hudd playing for Richmond VFA 1904.
Looking at Permits he came from Prahran in early 1904. Then transferred to Footscray 8.6.1905. Then Footscray to Geelong in 1907(where he is listed as Charles Hudd), and C.W. Hudd in this initial permit which was held over. So I know he was therefore Charles. W Hudd.
A scribble found in the Richmond filing cabinet suggests he went to WW1. Which gives us No.227 'Charles Wyatt Hudd' (born in Dunedin New Zealand 1977 - whichwould make him 27 when he debuted with Richmond). Looking on VIC BDM, theres a Charles Hudd who dies in 1947. I dont know the exact date, but it seems to be in August as per this . If anyone find his exact date that would be great. I've now added him to the WW1 list

 

[GreyCrow]

Sorry just catching up on this... am I putting Carr on the DOB email list ? Or is it still under research

Family BDM details

A Charles Oliver Carr born 1897 to Laurence and Rosetta Carr

Rosetta Carr passed in 1952 and her obit mentions her children http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205403418

Charles is mentioned with (Barney) in brackets

Charles Oliver Carr dies in 1971

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165148370 (14 May 1921)

Here's his permit:- Charles Carr, Prahran to St. Kilda;

I think the Obit of Rosetta , the article on CO Carr from Harry and the permit to Prahran all add up to a strong possibility. I would use pen if it was my tree.

I am happy for others to want to see more