GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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I cant find William Ernest on Trove , have found his brother Frederick George from the year prior.
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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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I would suggest it isnt a great issue. I would put it down to a clerical error rather than a deliberate naming. Then again his DCert is only from informants, yet his father was still alive and I assume the informant. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203382944 (also looks to be on War List). Marriage as George Stormouth
Notice 22/8/1947 Point Lonsdale close by?
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I'm really not at all sure about this one, Rhett. There's no doubt that Sylvester John Cathie and the 'famous' George Cathie are brothers, and there's a good chance that S. J. Cathie was the Jack Cathie who played for Richmond, but I can't find anything that says the Richmond player is connected to George Cathie. I also haven't found anything that says where the Richmond player came from, which is strange, given that he was apparently a well-regarded player. The Leopold club (where George came from) had quite a few Cathie's, and there was an S.J. Cathie at the club around then (an administrator).
Somebody else might want to have a look and might find a definitive answer.
Yep. Thanks for both answer.. I just needed to look in the first column of the death notices a bit closer. Ha.
Well, this one is probably impossible to solve without a visit to State Library and Richmond papers.
So in 1902 we have a player called Hardy, who played 1 game - Richmond vs Brunswick.
"Hardy, a local junior" says the Herald cutting in the Minute Book.
I gather we would never find who that was.... and then this afternoon.. in that filing cabinet at Richmond... someone hand wrote in next to him name 'Malcolm Kennette/Kenneth Hardie' b: 1882 (R18479) , d: 1907 (R3120) . I have no idea where they picked that name from.
But if that is a starting point, then yes, that above full name was born in Richmond, and died in Warragul, very young aged 24 by an accidental gunshot
His father was a noted clergyman in Richmond. As I said I'll probably need to look at Richmond papers in SLV - but I thought I would post it here should you ever come across anything.
So in 1902 we have a player called Hardy, who played 1 game - Richmond vs Brunswick.
"Hardy, a local junior" says the Herald cutting in the Minute Book.
I gather we would never find who that was.... and then this afternoon.. in that filing cabinet at Richmond... someone hand wrote in next to him name 'Malcolm Kennette/Kenneth Hardie' b: 1882 (R18479) , d: 1907 (R3120) . I have no idea where they picked that name from.
But if that is a starting point, then yes, that above full name was born in Richmond, and died in Warragul, very young aged 24 by an accidental gunshot
His father was a noted clergyman in Richmond. As I said I'll probably need to look at Richmond papers in SLV - but I thought I would post it here should you ever come across anything.
http://www.ashefamily.info/ashefamily/6773.htm
Malcolm Kenneth HARDIE
- Born: 18 Jul 1882, Richmond, Victoria, Australia
- Died: 3 Mar 1907, Bona Vista, Victoria, Australia aged 24
- Buried: 5 Mar 1907, Boroondara Cemetery, Kew, Victoria, Australia
Another name for Malcolm was Ken.
This gives exact DoB and DoD but obviously doesn't prove that he was the Richmond footballer from 1902! What a story, BTW!
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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This was my favourite when you first mentioned it. It never mentioned any sporting prowess and I couldnt backfill a story on Hardie with his father
Let me raise a query about "Ernest McDonald" to see if everything is above board. We have McDonald playing with us from 1901-02, 1904-1907 and then a few games in 1908.
Wiki says he the played with Richmond in 1908 as Ernie McDonald.
The club's record have often had varying names with this bloke. Firstly the club has previously said he was "Rhoda" McDonald , which fits into a narrative because wiki doesn't have him doing anything after 1901- which is the same year he starts at Richmond.
Another club record (Tigers of Old Book) has him as Edgar McDonald, who went to Footscray 1909-11.
And even another club reference had him as Edgar Arthur McDonald, the test cricketer. Which can't be right as he was born 1891.
So question is, is it Ernie McDonald (as Wiki claims), or Edgar McDonald (as book claims). I know what he looks like as he appears in several team photos you can see on Boyle
Wiki says he the played with Richmond in 1908 as Ernie McDonald.
The club's record have often had varying names with this bloke. Firstly the club has previously said he was "Rhoda" McDonald , which fits into a narrative because wiki doesn't have him doing anything after 1901- which is the same year he starts at Richmond.
Another club record (Tigers of Old Book) has him as Edgar McDonald, who went to Footscray 1909-11.
And even another club reference had him as Edgar Arthur McDonald, the test cricketer. Which can't be right as he was born 1891.
So question is, is it Ernie McDonald (as Wiki claims), or Edgar McDonald (as book claims). I know what he looks like as he appears in several team photos you can see on Boyle
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I've looked up this bloke McDonald before and could not find any reference to Rhoda McDonald.
I'll take another shot at him.
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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The wiki page provided says he came from South Adelaide , I looked at SA BCs and couldnt find a particular name that jumped out. Also says he played for Collingwood. I cant see Rhoda being the same person who then plays for Richmond, but who knows
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10552989
He went from Collingwood to Carlton at the end of May 1901 (permit ^), played four games for the Blues then apparently finished the season at Richmond. He was at Collingwood 1896-97 so I don't know what he did between then and 1901. Played for South Adelaide perhaps? He was in Collingwood's (first ever) Grand Final winning side in 1896, that combined with his unusual first name makes it a bit surprising that his demise was seemingly not noticed.
This (permit) has E. A. McDonald going from Richmond to Footscray in 1911:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196206912 (15 Jun 1911)
E. A. McDonald went from Footscray to Essendon (permit) early in 1912:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11670383 (25 Apr 1912)
This is getting confusing as the Test cricketer supposedly played a couple of games for Essendon in 1912! Perhaps there was another E. A. McDonald playing football at the time, or maybe a couple of E. McDonald's at Richmond around then?!
Edgar McDonald, the Test cricketer played VFL football for Essendon and Fitzroy, and as you said couldn't be the Richmond footballer who played in 1901, at least.
EA "Ted" McDonald played junior football in a local Launceston competition until 1908, was a member of Launceston's NTFA senior premiership team in 1909 and also played with them in 1910.
In the meantime, his improving cricket career led to selection in first-class matches for Tasmania, and he left for Melbourne on Tuesday 7 March 1911 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152378860
So, it seems possible he signed with Richmond (but never actually played for the club), moved to Footscray just a couple of months later, then to Essendon in the VFL less than a year later. Then on to Fitzroy where he played for quite a few years.
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In the Weekly Courier (Launceston) 27 April 1911 p13 the following appears in a football preview article by "Haka"
"…McDonald, a young player, who used to form one of Launceston's half-back line, will open with Richmond, but, unless he shows better form than ever he produced here he is hardly likely to hold his place. However, followers of the game on this side will wish him success."
Nick Richardson's biography of McDonald "The Silk Express: The story of EA 'Ted' McDonald" gave me the clue to search for and find the above quote, and Nick then comments that McDonald made his debut for Footscray on 17 June 1911 vs Port Melbourne, kicking three goals. He played in the next match vs Northcote, but that was it as a player in the VFA, and McDonald then starts his VFL career in 1912.
I see the DoB (26 January 1883) and DoD (30 September 1971) for the player who played 4 games for Richmond in 1908 are known at least. 'The Encyclopedia' calls him Ernest V. McDonald. I'm not sure whether they are of much help but here's the Vic BDM details that seem to match:-
Record information
Event Birth
Event registration number 2372
Registration year 1883
Personal information
Family name MCDONALD
Given names Ernest Victor
Sex Unknown
Father's name William
Mother's name Jane Margaret (Harding)
Place of birth EMER
=========================
Event Death
Event registration number 23569
Registration year 1971
Personal information
Family name MCDONALD
Given names Ernest Victor
Sex Male
Father's name MCDONALD William
Mother's name Jane Margaret (Harding)
Place of birth Melbourne South
Place of death Thornbury
Age 88
If Rhoda (Robert Ernest) McDonald was at Richmond back then it obviously adds to the confusion.
Thanks. That tidies that part of the story up very nicely!
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Rhoda is in the missing DOD thread - actual name was Robert Ernest McDonald according to AFL - born in South Melbourne
What I found about him I posted at here
Wow this one is becoming a mind -boggle.
So I am right to say at the moment we are thinking:
1. The Richmond VFA McDonald is Ernest Victor McDonald.
2. The Richmond VFL McDonald is Ernie McDonald (possibly different to the above person).
3. Ernest 'Rhoda'McDonald has nothing to do with Richmond at all.
4. E.A "Ted" McDonald was at Richmond but never played and instead was cleared to Fitzroy
(I'm look through the MB and AR and see what comes up)
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In the Punch 6 Aug 1903 photo on Boyle (from the season where no McDonald is credited with a game) there are two McDonalds in the Richmond team photo - R. McDonald (probably Robert a.k.a. Rhoda) and an A. McDonald.
Without initials in match reports it is really hard to tell exactly who played when but my suspicions are that Rhoda/Robert played games in 1901-1902 and then 1904 onwards are likely to be Ernest Victor McDonald
E.A "Ted" McDonald (Test cricketer) was at Richmond very briefly (perhaps he played a practice game or two?) but was cleared to Footscray. He went on to play for Essendon and Fitzroy in the VFL. Ernest Victor McDonald seems to have been there, he is supposed to have been the 1908 VFL player, whether he was the one playing in the VFA prior to that, not sure!
Hopefully something will turn up that tells us where the McDonald(s) who played from 1901-1908 came from!
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This is Rhoda McDonald from his Collingwood days (1896-97). Would you say he looks enough like the player in the Richmond photo?
My initial thought is he doesn't looks like him , but the Coll one is 6 years earlier right ?
Though....a look through the 1902Richmond Minutes has come across a Herald cutting that says 'McDonald's kicking greatly admired. It would be well to play to "Rhoda", a little more.
and in a subsequent article cutting of Richmond v Prahran in 1902 Minute Book says 'Ernie McDonald's goal was a beauty'.
So that gives us the impression the 1902 Richmond player is named Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald
Though....a look through the 1902Richmond Minutes has come across a Herald cutting that says 'McDonald's kicking greatly admired. It would be well to play to "Rhoda", a little more.
and in a subsequent article cutting of Richmond v Prahran in 1902 Minute Book says 'Ernie McDonald's goal was a beauty'.
So that gives us the impression the 1902 Richmond player is named Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald
Yes, from 1896 or 1897 most likely. So it does look like Rhoda McDonald was there in 1902 at least. His last game for Carlton was 22 June 1901, he'd have obviously needed a permit around then to get to Richmond if he was playing there in 1901. Still seems probable another McDonald comes along some time down the track.
Oh how interesting is this. A look at the clubs game by game team that we have for 1901 season DOESN'T have a McDonald playing.
Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald plays his first game for Richmond VFA on May 17 1902 vs Nth.
The Annual Report also does not list him in the team list in 1901, but does in 1902.
So maybe his permit to Richmond occurred early 1902, not middle 1901.
AND then in the 1907 Annual Report is lists E McDonald as a players for Richmond, but in 1908 Annual Report there is NO McDonald listed in the team listing. Someone has handwritten in Edward McDonald ? and then Ernest ? (those handwritten additions may only have been recently made , ie: 1980s onwards).
Maybe it isn't Rhoda, but a new McDonald who lasted only 4 games in 1908 and hence when it came time to publish the annual report they forgot him cause his game were so early in the season and it was the more well known long serving Rhoda.
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