Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by Supermercado, Mar 9, 2015.

  1. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

    Hawthorn
    Other teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Jul 26, 2014
    122
    Thanks Harry
    I think with the most likely scenario here is they weren't brothers
    1) The ref to Jack be a publican is a pretty strong indicator that he was the John George Dalton 1876–1923 identified above.
    2) The numerous refs to W. Dalton indicate he was probably a William and I have no reason to doubt he was the William Joseph Dalton 1876–1955 identified above (although we can't really confirm it either) - the 1872 DOB is wrong so I will contact Paul at AFL Tables to update
     

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  2. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

    North Melbourne
    Sep 30, 2016
    281
    What I find remarkable is that for a player of truly historic interest such as an early premiership player, they can disappear completely from media reports and their death does not even constitute a footnote later on.

    It is almost as if the day William Dalton left for NM, he ceased to be of importance to Fitzroy.

    And if a premiership player warrants this much media attention, what does media attention does a player who played 10 games get.
     
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  3. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Sturt, Redskins , White Sox
    Mar 21, 2016
    22,557
    Down South Corvus Tristis
    For those who have an Ancestry email account there is a Free weekend this weekend . ie I have a signed account but no paid access.

    Access to the records in the featured collections will be free from

    00:01 BST on 25 August 2017
    to
    23:59 BST on 28 August 2017


    From another site that is spot on with these promotions.
     
  4. *Paul*

    *Paul* Club Legend

    Other teams:
    Canberra Raiders
    Nov 8, 2000
    1,197
    Canberra
    A reader has suggested to me that Austin McCrabb's goal for Geelong v Sydney in round 8, 1990 was actually kicked by Robert Scott.
    https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1990/091619900518.html

    Also, I've been pretty low energy this year, and can't see it getting any better. So if any one is up to the task of summarising changes I need to make that'd be great. I must just be able to muster the enthusiasm to do something if it's handed to me on plate :)
     
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  5. RedmanWasHere

    RedmanWasHere Brownlow Medallist

    Essendon
    Other teams:
    The Exers.
    Aug 23, 2010
    12,180
    Information Superhighway
    Hi Paul.

    Great to see you post after so long.

    I'd like to suggest some new stats added to each player page.

    In the top 10 section, I'd like to see each player's top 10 biggest winning and top 10 losing margins

    A separate page listing all of their teammates with clickable options too.
    Each player numbered, what game they first played alongside a teammate, how many games they played alongside those teammates, how many goals did they kick in the same game as each other and what years they spanned from.

    Just a few options there.

    Cheers.
     
  6. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

    Geelong
    Oct 22, 2000
    603
    Launceston
    Mmm, Paul. I wonder what evidence they have for suggesting that Scott kicked a goal in that match.
    The next week's match programme on page 34 lists McCrabb with one goal, not Scott.
    http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/158575

    As does the score detail published in the Canberra Times:
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122248274
     
  7. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

    Hawthorn
    Other teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Jul 26, 2014
    122
    Jim Darcy is credited with 9 games for Essendon in 1897 and one game for South Melb in 1904 against Geelong
    1897 reports show he came from West Melb and it seems he returned there in 1898.

    However, looking at the report of the 1904 game from the Record we find the comment "South being changed from the previous Saturday by the inclusion of Griffiths, Darcy, and Hogan, the latter two from the Goulburn Valley"
    The Numurkah Leader also says (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article191709097) "Tom Hogan of Tatura played, with 'Sowt' Melbourne against Geelong on Saturday, and is commended for his good play by the metropolitan press. Tom Darcy also played in the same game."

    Looking on Ancestry I reckon the 1904 player should be identified as Thomas Darcy (1881-1955) - he is registered on electoral roll in Tatura in 1903.

    Birth Record
    Name:
    Thomas Darcy
    Birth Date: Abt 1881
    Birth Place: Tool, Victoria (Toolamba)
    Registration Year: 1881
    Registration Place: Victoria, Australia
    Father: Thomas Darcy
    Mother: Margaret Riley
    Registration Number: 18123

    Death Record
    Name: Thomas Darcy
    Birth Year: abt 1881
    Age: 74
    Death Place: Chel, Victoria
    Father's name: Thomas
    Mother's name: Margaret Kiely
    Registration Year: 1955
    Registration Place: Victoria
    Registration Number: 11196
     
  8. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

    Geelong
    Oct 22, 2000
    603
    Launceston

    Margaret Darcy died in late November 1915. Her obituary records names of seven sons & three daughters;
    Thomas being known (at least in family circles) as Thomas Patrick Darcy.
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/151761349
     
  9. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Richmond
    Jan 5, 2004
    556
    Melbourne
    Wikipedia has Kevin O'Neill, famous Richmond player - with the surname as Wilford.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_O'Neill_(Australian_footballer)

    Now we know Kevin's father played with Richmond in the VFA, he was Ted "Janey' O'Neill.
    Using Kevin O'Neill's birth year of 1908, I see on BDM an Edward Kevin O'Neill, born in Echuca in 1908. His father being Edward James O'Neill.
    So I suspect Kevin's real full name is Edward Kevin O'Neill. And his father who played for Richmond is Edward 'Ted' 'James 'Janey' O'Neill. (I'm trying to find his birth/death year and I wonder if it is b: 1878 Kyneton , d: 1966 in Echuca. )

    Thoughts?
     
  10. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Sturt, Redskins , White Sox
    Mar 21, 2016
    22,557
    Down South Corvus Tristis
    Looking at the WW2 Nominal Rolls we see for that Birthdate under O'Neill a Edward Kevin O'Neill NOK Ira O'Neill. Ira is a brother born 1912
    http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?ServiceId=R&VeteranId=980648

    I cant fault your searches
     
  11. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

    Geelong
    Oct 22, 2000
    603
    Launceston
    Rhett. An entry on Ancestry for one of the public family trees shows Janey's details as
    b 10 October 1878 (Kyneton)
    d 28 May 1966 (Echuca)
     

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  12. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Richmond
    Jan 5, 2004
    556
    Melbourne
    Thank you. I've added that to my VFA page. Slowllllllllly but surely we are filling in the Tiger gaps.
     
  13. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

    Hawthorn
    Other teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Jul 26, 2014
    122
    I’ve been trying to resolve DOB discrepancies in Wikipedia and can’t seem to work out Les Field (Ess) - any help / thoughts appreciated

    Les Field (Casterton all-rounder) reported as being in a motor regiment in Dec 1942 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article225562142)
    This appears to identify him as LESLIE GORDON FIELD: (http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=486517)

    Named as Essendon recruit in March 1946 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22236027)
    In Oct 1946 Les Field plays well for a Casterton District team against Essendon (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22385751)
    Back with Essendon in 1947 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206022010)
    Makes his debut for Essendon against Fitzroy on 31 May 1947 and identified as being from Casterton (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article223922253). Plays two games. In 1948 is reported as seeking clearance to Hawthorn (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206905661)

    There were only two Fields in Casterton electoral rolls in 1930’s, Leslie (presumably his father) and Amelia Anne (presumably his mother).

    Three questions:
    1. Identity - Was the player Leslie Gordon Field identified in WW2 roll above?

    2. DOB - Current sources have his DOB as 29 Nov 1921 (enlistment), 29 Nov 1923 (Wikipedia/australianfootball.com) or 29 Nov 1924 (AFL tables) Which DOB is correct? I haven’t found anything on Trove/Ancestry to confirm

    3. Date of Death - Current DOD is given as 29 Nov 1991. An ancestry search brings up a probate record for Leslie George Field, death 29 Nov 1991 in Wangaratta. Is the name wrong in the probate record (unlikely), did two Leslie Fields die on the same day (also unlikely), or is the listed DOD incorrect?
     
  14. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Sturt, Redskins , White Sox
    Mar 21, 2016
    22,557
    Down South Corvus Tristis
    Doesnt really help on the DOB but it can be inferred the DOB is 1923 and 1922 at worst. Given the above 1923 might be possible. Though this doesnt explain the WW2 record


    Event registration number6682

    Registration year1987

    Personal information
    Family name FIELD

    Given namesLeslie Gordon

    Sex Male

    Father's nameFIELD Leslie Victor

    Mother's nameAmelia Ann (Lawford)

    Place of birth Casterton

    Place of death Dandenong South

    Age 64
     
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  15. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Gold

    Collingwood
    Other teams:
    Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
    Mar 6, 2011
    3,870
    Adelaide
    The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has a DoB of 29 Nov 1924, the AFL Historical Statistics page for Essendon 1947 had 29-11-1923.
     
  16. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

    Hawthorn
    Other teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Jul 26, 2014
    122
    Just checked Harder Than Football which identifies him as Leslie George Field (http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=612408) born 29-11-23 died 29-11-1991 with the unflattering comment that he was "discharged in March 1944 as unsuitable for military service due to various misdemeanours."
    My view is this is the wrong man given the articles I linked to in Trove above - his DOB in nominal roll is 12 Oct 1923 which doesn't match and there is no Casterton link I can see - Leslie George was living in Willaura / Geelong West during the post war period.
     
  17. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

    Geelong
    Oct 22, 2000
    603
    Launceston

    Think I might have found bit more about him -
    here is a funeral record at Springvale Cemetery for a Leslie Gordon Field (b. 29 Nov 1921, d. 29 Sept 1986)
    http://dcc.smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/result/513165
     
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  18. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Sturt, Redskins , White Sox
    Mar 21, 2016
    22,557
    Down South Corvus Tristis
    Must have been a late registration then? Or it was put in the Dec/Jan batch and processed after Xmas :D
     
  19. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

    Hawthorn
    Other teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Jul 26, 2014
    122
    This makes sense - his Army record matches this birth date and age at death lines up - looks like existing dates in football sources are wrong

    Think it is fair to conclude player was
    Leslie Gordon Field (b. 29 Nov 1921 in Casterton/Cyamyn; d. 29 Sept 1986 in Dandenong South)

    rhett - can you add Les Field to the end of season update list for AFL - update to both DOB and DOD?
    I'll contact AFL Tables, australianfootball.com and update wikipedia.
     
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  20. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

    Richmond
    Other teams:
    Richmond
    Jan 5, 2004
    556
    Melbourne
    I've added it to the email I will be sending off to Stephen R., after Richmond wins the premiership in a few weeks.
     
  21. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

    Adelaide
    Other teams:
    Sturt, Redskins , White Sox
    Mar 21, 2016
    22,557
    Down South Corvus Tristis
    Appropriate for the inaccuracy thread ;)
     
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  22. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

    Geelong
    Oct 22, 2000
    603
    Launceston
    I think I have found another discrepancy in the "official" records - this time relating to Billy O'Hara (St Kilda 1900) player.

    The birth and death dates for him at australianfootball.com and Wikipedia are shown as 9 January 1879 and 25 April 1957
    http://australianfootball.com/players/player/Bill+O%27Hara/1456
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_O'Hara_(footballer,_born_1879)

    Birth date seems to be correct (although an Ancestry tree or two show 8th Jan rather than 9th),
    but death date should be April/May 1941, rather than 1957.

    Here are some articles and online resources I have found:
    W O’Hara Medicine prize at Brighton Grammar School 1899
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165305510

    From match report in 1900 St Kilda v Essendon
    “it was comical to watch Cleghorn endeavouring to stop O’Hara, who is nearly as big a man as his father, the well known surgeon”
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9543325

    letter to editor of a Tassie paper in June 1906 refers to Dr O’Hara being “late of St Kilda team, now at Ulverstone”
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/151612244

    William Ernest O’Hara WW1 service record
    https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/267226
    bottom of page 53 shows his birthdate as 9 January 1879 and height as 6ft 1 3/4 in and weight 16 stone 4 lbs

    obit for Dr WE O’Hara May 1941 death in Shanghai, China refers to his time at Ulverstone years earlier
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/68506159


    A couple of Ancestry family trees have reference to a William Henry O’Hara with death at Grafton, NSW on 25 April 1957, but his birthdate is shown as 11 March 1868.
     
  23. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Gold

    Collingwood
    Other teams:
    Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
    Mar 6, 2011
    3,870
    Adelaide
    The AFL seemingly had a different person in mind, as the St Kilda 1900 page from the Historical Statistics site has him as Bill H. O'Hara (180cm/81kg). 'The Encyclopedia' also calls him W. H. O'Hara. Both sources do have 9 January 1879 for the DoB.
     
  24. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

    Geelong
    Oct 22, 2000
    603
    Launceston
    Well, if W H O'Hara listed by the AFL is the St Kilda player who died in NSW on 25 April 1957,
    his DOB is wrong, and he debuted at age 32 ?
     
  25. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Gold

    Collingwood
    Other teams:
    Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
    Mar 6, 2011
    3,870
    Adelaide
    #1125 35Daicos, Sep 17, 2017 at 1:36 PM
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017 at 1:57 PM
    I'm pretty sure you've got the right one!

    The Argus included his obituary (as well as a death notice) 6 May 1941, but it's almost identical to the one from the Tasmanian paper, and also doesn't mention the exact DoD:-
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8173857
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8174009

    BIRTHS
    O'HARA - On the 9th January, at Alma-road, St. Kilda, the wife of Dr. O'Hara of a son.
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199360180 (10 Jan. 1879)
     
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