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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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royals1922 said:
I was just doing some random checking.

Arthur Melsey from Geelong from 1903 was interesting because some of the early games from of that year he played( he didn't play after that year ) don't name him in reports.
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Mesley is mentioned in the Geelong Advertiser as having made his debut for the rd. 9 game:- "and Mesley, a student at the Training College, Melbourne." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17952831

He is mentioned again "Mesley shaped promisingly" for the following game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/148993845

He became a teacher, and eventually the long-term Headmaster of Leongatha Agricultural High School, so presumably study/employment caused his VFL football career to be a brief one.
 
35Daicos said:
Mesley is mentioned in the Geelong Advertiser as having made his debut for the rd. 9 game:- "and Mesley, a student at the Training College, Melbourne." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17952831

He is mentioned again "Mesley shaped promisingly" for the following game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/148993845

He became a teacher, and eventually the long-term Headmaster of Leongatha Agricultural High School, so presumably study/employment caused his VFL football career to be a brief one.
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Games 3 or 4 or 5, I was looking at. More a due diligence on the old games as I do on occasion
 
35Daicos said:
Doh! I only looked at games 1 & 2. I'll get back to checking the rest in a minute!
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My modus operandi is to go to a pre 1915 game at random, look at the players involved and if they had 30 games or less check the records.
 

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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17545987

Interestingly, The Geelong Advertiser says of the rd. 11 1903 game "Quinton, another Brighton junior player, made his debut with the Geelong team ..." It also says "The latter, who is an old College boy, promises to be an acquisition to the team." I presume this was simply an error, and the reporter was unaware that he had debuted three years earlier.

Mesley is mentioned as having played in this game, which would have been his 3rd.

Mesley gets a couple of mentions for the next game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/148994903

He also gets mentioned twice in the next game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17546041

I haven't checked the other papers, but it seems highly likely he played as the records suggest.
 
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35Daicos said:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17545987

Interestingly, The Geelong Advertiser says of the rd. 11 1903 game "Quinton, another Brighton junior player, made his debut with the Geelong team ..." It also says "The latter, who is an old College boy, promises to be an acquisition to the team." I presume this was simply an error, and the reporter was unaware that he had debuted three years earlier.

Mesley is mentioned as having played in this game, which would have been his 3rd.

Mesley gets a couple of mentions for the next game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/148994903

He also gets mentioned twice in the next game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17546041

I haven't checked the other papers, but it seems highly likely he played as the records suggest.
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Most of these game records have not been "audited" since the onset of Trove.

Quinton interests me in that there is no mention, that I can see of his omission the week later.
 
royals1922 said:
Most of these game records have not been "audited" since the onset of Trove.

Quinton interests me in that there is no mention, that I can see of his omission the week later.
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I'm still looking mate, and good to see you back online again BTW, things were a bit quiet around here for a while!

It is strange that Quinton's omission gets no mention, I'm not sure if there's anything "untoward" there, but nothing would surprise.

This looks interesting:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=19000630&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

The Herald (Sat. evening) match report for the 1900 rd. 9 Collingwood vs. Geelong game names Rankin in the Geelong team (and as having kicked a goal). The official record leaves him out (Archie Thompson is credited with playing - and scoring 1 goal):- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/040919000630.html

The Geelong Advertiser mention Rankin as being out (a couple of times) and that Thompson did play, probably this paper has it right? The Argus also has Rankin as an absentee. This is the game I've referred to in the thread about players playing under an assumed name. The mystery man "Thomas" was probably Thompson, who had recently come out of retirement, so really not sure on any of this.
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From the other thread:-
"Thomas" played for Geelong in the same match referred to above according to several of the papers. Anyone happen to know who this mystery player was, and why (seemingly) another alias was used?

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18519982
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/321924
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11412127
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A player named as "McKenna"/McKenna in most papers played for Collingwood in this game - this was Bill Proudfoot playing under an assumed name. As mentioned in the other thread, the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has Robert McKenna playing his one and only game for Collingwood in 1900, this is certainly not correct.
 
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rbartlett said:
Still a bit confused by the W Stevens for Richmond in 1916
I'm leaning towards he was in the squad, but a late change before the match
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...official-records.1089761/page-8#post-41534304
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I suspect you're correct with this, since nothing new has turned up that makes it look likely that he played.

I did post back on page 8 (#188) about how a W. Stevens received a permit to move from Kooweerup to Richmond (a few years later) in 1921. Perhaps you didn't see that, or did you dismiss the idea that it could be the same player returning for another crack at the big time?
 
35Daicos said:
I suspect you're correct with this, since nothing new has turned up that makes it look likely that he played.

I did post back on page 8 (#188) about how a W. Stevens received a permit to move from Kooweerup to Richmond (a few years later) in 1921. Perhaps you didn't see that, or did you dismiss the idea that it could be the same player returning for another crack at the big time?
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I missed that original post.
There was a Stevens who played for Richmond Reserves in 1924. (not to be confused with C Stephens who was with the Reserves from 1921)
I suspect 1916 Stevens and 1921 permit Stevens are different.

Update: In the Advertiser 1 July 1916 it shows that "Stevens, wing-man for Richmond Juniors was to be tried out for (I think) Footscray Juniors"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89112042
 
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35Daicos said:
AFL Tables has Jason Wild playing 69 games for Collingwood (with 12 games in his debut season) and the Footy Works program agrees with this, yet the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has 70 games and the 1999 Grand Final Football Record has him finishing on that total. The (now defunct) AFL Historical Statistics website also had him playing 70 career games, with 13 in 1995.

There seems to be no doubt that Wild played 69 career games, not 70. Most other sources have him playing 70 games (13 in 1995), with Collingwood Forever website, The Football Record and others having it wrong.

The Historical Statistics website 1995 Collingwood Player List has Scott Burns playing 20 games that year (should be 21), 13 for Wild. The problem looks to have come from Wild being credited with playing the round 6 1995 game against Richmond, Burns in fact played.

Burns can even be seen playing the rd. 6 game here:-

Burns career record is wrong with several sources as well, all because of the error with the 1995 rd. 6 match. The AFL Historical Statistics site, Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers, The AFL Record Season Guide and no doubt others have him on 264 games. It should be 265 games (AFL Tables also has this correct).

Edit: I've also sent an email to the AFL folks regarding this issue, and been advised that Col H. should be able to look into it.
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It's not the answer I was expecting, but good to see that the AFL's Col Hutchinson has clarified this situation ( Ron The Bear , australianfootball ):-

The AFL records regarding Scott Burns and Jason Wild are accurate.

It appears that some confusion was caused in Round 12, 1995.

Wild was a last minute replacement and Burns dropped out of the team.

The stats panels in the print media did not change the names on the team list.

I will alert the AFL Tables website.
When things slow down a little at Headquarters, I will communicate with you about the other topics that you have raised.

So Collingwood Forever has this 'half-right', Wild's career games tally is 70, but on the Burns page it's shown as 265 (twice) and 264 (twice) when it should be 264.

Presumably, the (very modest) statistics attributed to Burns for the rd. 12 game should be given to Wild, and certainly Burns' name needs to be removed from the page:- http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/matches/1995-western-bulldogs-vs-collingwood-round-12/
 

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I think I might have something to check out. If we've done this one before tell me.

I was doing a random search of 1899 games and came across a fellow called Tom Nolan who played 2 games for Fitzroy in 1899 - round 10 on 15 July 1899 versus Geelong and round 11 on 22 July 1899 versus St Kilda.

His wikipedia page says he is Thomas Patrick Nolan and gives a date of birth and death. Except none of the Trove citations listed in the Wiki page say T Nolan played for Fitzroy. A sportsman yes, but not a footballer.

All well and good except for this report of the Melbourne Punch of 20 July 1899.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180225310

This report in reference to the Fitzroy - Geelong game outs "Nolan" as none other than FE Fontaine and a cyclist. One would think that this is Fred Fontaine and, indeed, Fred did not play in the round 10 game but he is listed as having played the round 11 game that year.

The report from the Punch is quite definite and refers to Nolan as "Nolan" twice.

Further for the Geelong game, the Argus of 17 July 1899 also refers to "Nolan" in quotation marks.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9516202

The Fitzroy City Press of 20 July 1899 report of the Geelong game refers to Nolan without the quotation marks

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65698525

What makes this also interesting is that the Fitzroy City Press of 20 July 1899 on the same day says that for the St Kilda game (round 11), L Nolan and the "old warhorse " Cleary and Noonan will play

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65698528
All 3 players did play that St Kilda game as well as Fontaine, according to the AFL records. 2 Nolans do not play that day and Fontaine was not listed as a possible in.

The Age of 29 May 1899 lists J Nolan as having played that St Kila game.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202630090
A J Nolan played for Fitzroy in 1899, a Jerry Nolan, who played his last game according to AFL records in round 4.

So my hypothesis is that Tom Nolan may have played no games, Jerry Nolan may have played 4 games instead of 3 and Fontaine played an extra game.
 
I also have another query about Fred Fontaine (pre World War 1).

Was his name actually Fred Fontaine. It may have been but.....

Australian Football and Wikipedia list his name Fred Fontaine who was born on 15 July 1874 and died on 9 December 1957.

There is also a Francois Ernest Fontaine (known as Frederick) who was born on 15 July 1874 and died on 6 August 1953 and played for Fitzroy, Carlton and Northcote Cricket clubs.

Thus apparently 2 different blokes with the same surname and the the same birthdate and this report of the Sporting Globe of 22 November 1930

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article183004202

sets out the exploits of Fred Fontaine Junior and then says that Fred Fontaine Junior's father was a Stalwart Fitzroy follower of prewar days AND a dashing batsman with Fitzroy, Carlton and Northcote.

Ancestry also has a photo of FE Fontaine

which can be seen on that site

which has a similarity to this picture of Fred Fontaine

c04f550963dce73b3674c802444d4e44


So when did he die and are they the same.
 
More on Fontaine.

There was a Frederick Fontaine who died in Melbourne in 1957 but Francois Ernest Fontaine died in WA in 1953.

cf West Australian 7 August 1953

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49225138

He is buried in Fremantle Cemetery. I still cannot find anything in on trove that announces the death of Fred Fontaine of Fitzroy FC in the 1950s.
 
Unrelated. Can anyone direct me to the 1946-1948 VFL Thirds results (even just the match scores)
I've looked on Trove , and Footy Records but can't seem to find anything - but I may be overlooking something obvious
 
rbartlett said:
Unrelated. Can anyone direct me to the 1946-1948 VFL Thirds results (even just the match scores)
I've looked on Trove , and Footy Records but can't seem to find anything - but I may be overlooking something obvious
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I've had a pretty good look on Trove and those results are indeed hard to find. I thought the Sporting Globe would be very likely to have them but they're only there occasionally. The Age and The Argus are the same.

By entering "league thirds" in Advanced Search it throws up a few pages that have the final scores, but there's not much there at all. I don't know where else you could try.
 
35Daicos said:
I've had a pretty good look on Trove and those results are indeed hard to find. I thought the Sporting Globe would be very likely to have them but they're only there occasionally. The Age and The Argus are the same.

By entering "league thirds" in Advanced Search it throws up a few pages that have the final scores, but there's not much there at all. I don't know where else you could try.
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35 Daicos

Have you had a chance to look up the Fontaine Nolan thing.

I had another shot at it and while contemporary records suggest he used the name Fred Fontaine and that he was a cyclist, there is some confusion.
 

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royals1922 said:
35 Daicos

Have you had a chance to look up the Fontaine Nolan thing.

I had another shot at it and while contemporary records suggest he used the name Fred Fontaine and that he was a cyclist, there is some confusion.
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I haven't had much of a look yet but will definitely have a very good look at the team line-up side of things.

In case you haven't seen it, the Death Notice for Frederick Ernest Fontaine can be found in The Age (11 Dec 1957). There should be some sort of mention elsewhere in the paper if he was the well known footballer:- https://news.google.com.au/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19571211&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 13)

This is about the Fontaine who died in WA in 1954:-
http://boards.ancestry.com.au/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=944&p=surnames.fontaine

My Grandfather Francois married Edith Lillian King and settled in East Fremantle in Western Australia. He owned the Fremantle Bus company that later was sold to the Metro Bus Company. He had 3 children Fernande, Peter and Suzanne my mother.
One of is children Peter Fontaine a pilot in the 460 Squadron of the RAAF. He flew a Lancaster Bomber and was shot down over Stuttgart in Germany and killed.
Pappas brothers were Cornelius and Edmond. He was a tailor by trade and worked with his Father as a tailor in the South Yarra area. Before marrying and I suppose going to live in East Fremantle.
I have no information other than this. Any help to make a French Connection would be wonderful.
Thanks
Suzanne

Here's another story about (the son) Fred Fontaine, a very promising young cricketer. It mentions his father Fred Fontaine, the Fitzroy footballer, cricketer and cyclist:-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/183001488

His father—also Fred—years ago was one of the most attractive batsmen in Melbourne, and gave good service to Fitzroy. A feature of his play was his driving, and the son is showing that he knows how to execute that stroke. The father was also one of the best footballers who wore the Fitzroy colors, and a dashing cyclist, although a most unfortunate one.

The son, who was also Frederick Ernest Fontaine, played 6 first-class cricket games for Victoria:-
http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5280.html
 
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I read that Horrie Dawson was his nephew.

TBH, I usually have some guidance from the names but Francois Fontaine is definitely listed as the cricketer in 1910.
 
It does look to me to be just an extraordinary coincidence that the two men with (pretty much) the same name were born (apparently) on the same day. Surely it can't be that Francois Ernest Fontaine (who presumably spent most of his adult life in WA) was a cricketer in Melbourne, when we know Fred Fontaine (the footballer) played cricket for perhaps those same clubs?
 
35Daicos said:
It does look to me to be just an extraordinary coincidence that the two men with (pretty much) the same name were born (apparently) on the same day. Surely it can't be that Francois Ernest Fontaine (who presumably spent most of his adult life in WA) was a cricketer in Melbourne, when we know Fred Fontaine (the footballer) played cricket for perhaps those same clubs?
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Found some more . Francois Ernest Fontaine was married to Edith King in 1912 in Melbourne.

Francois later divorced Edith in 1935 in WA for adultery. The report is on Trove ( I'm on a phone and can't tack it on). When Francois died he left awidow and children.

It seems that one of Francois daughters are also chasing him ( Suzanne). Edith and Francois had a number of children.

Now I have 2 possible hypotheses.

The first is simple.Francois was not the cricketer in 1910 but Frederick Ernest Fontaine was. Why then was there no mention of his death in the contemporary press, black armbands etc.

The second is more interesting. Fred Fontaine was Francois Ernest Fontaine , married in 1912, his son Frederick Ernest is born later that year.

They move to WA ( this is a fact) and the husband and wife divorce in 1935, presumingly without it being amicable.

Francois moves on, remarries and dies in WA later.

Of the two, the former is more logical, ie the cricket date of birth is wrong but why the lack of reference to his death.

If he died in WA, this lack of press would be understandable.
 
By the way there is a photo of Francois Ernest Fontaine on Ancestry which you can access freely and he bears some similarity to Fred Fontaine the footballer.
 
The Death Notices for the WA based man can be seen here:-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/49225042

We know from the Death Notices that the man who died in Perth in 1953 did not have a son called Fred, the one who died in Melbourne in 1957 did. The articles about the younger Fred Fontaine playing cricket confirm that he was the son of the Fitzroy football star.
 
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