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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Harry Hook said:
Authors may then have just given his formal name as Richard presuming Dick wasn't his original name. Also one doesn't know how well they researched the early premiership players. Did they just rely on existing internetrecords, no offence to the authors meant, it's just that I like verification of these things, if at all possible.
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The people behind the book (Michael Roberts and Glenn McFarlane) are club historians so I'd imagine they've looked into it quite well.
 
Harry Hook said:
More on Hall and something to deepen the mystery.

Dick Hall apparently had a well known brother who also played football.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article68584025

Williamstown Chronicle 4 May 1895.

And Dick Hall was playing for Williamstown in 1894, if not before.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article68574581

Williamstown Chronicle 30 June 1894.
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If you have another look at this one, you'll see the article says Dick Hall was playing for South Williamstown. Another Hall (probably Walter - this might be the "well known brother") played for Williamstown that day.

This article suggests Dick Hall joined Williamstown in 1895. Walter Hall was still at the club:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/68584055
 
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35Daicos said:
The people behind the book (Michael Roberts and Glenn McFarlane) are club historians so I'd imagine they've looked into it quite well.
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Glenn McFarlane also helped with identifying a 3rd great uncle clarifying and verifying an incorrect name that all of Glenn, my grandfather and I would later confirm that a name in an article on my 2G-grandfather was incorrect and that our name was the correct name.
 

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All possibly true but I make no assumptions especially when I can not find a permit from or to a club or a credible reason why they would have not played further, especially if they were a premiership player.

Met one or two football historians in my time and learnt that a lot of them rely, especially in relation to 1910 and before stuff on old data, therefore repeating an error.

Excuse my cynicism.
 
Harry Hook said:
All possibly true but I make no assumptions especially when I can not find a permit from or to a club or a credible reason why they would have not played further, especially if they were a premiership player.

Met one or two football historians in my time and learnt that a lot of them rely, especially in relation to 1910 and before stuff on old data, therefore repeating an error.

Excuse my cynicism.
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Found one, Harry!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190656001 (The Age 25 June 1897)

Victorian Junior Association -- Permits have been granted to ~~~
R. Hall, Collingwood to Albion United;

I tend to be rather cynical as well when it comes to the records from (especially) the early days of the game, that's why I'm happy to spend a lot of time looking through this sort of stuff! Sometimes, there just isn't any real mystery at all and the records are correct.

It would be interesting to know why he only played the one game for Collingwood in 1897, and then headed off to play in a lesser competition, when he had been a premiership player (and played regularly) in the top competition only a few months earlier. The poor fellow died in 1906 (aged 34); I wonder what happened there as well.

Edit: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201678447 (15 Dec. 1906)

HALL.— The Friends of the late Mr. RICHARD JOHN HALL are respectfully invited to follow his remains to the place of interment, in the Coburg Cemetery. The funeral is appointed to leave his father's residence, Flett Street, South Preston TOMORROW (Sunday), 16th December, at 3 o'clock.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201678460/18947208 (15 Dec. 1906)
 
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35Daicos said:
Found one, Harry!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190656001 (The Age 25 June 1897)

Victorian Junior Association -- Permits have been granted to ~~~
R. Hall, Collingwood to Albion United;

I tend to be rather cynical as well when it comes to the records from (especially) the early days of the game, that's why I'm happy to spend a lot of time looking through this sort of stuff! Sometimes, there just isn't any real mystery at all and the records are correct.

It would be interesting to know why he only played the one game for Collingwood in 1897, and then headed off to play in a lesser competition, when he had been a premiership player (and played regularly) in the top competition only a few months earlier. The poor fellow died in 1906 (aged 34); I wonder what happened there as well.

Edit: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201678447 (15 Dec. 1906)

HALL.— The Friends of the late Mr. RICHARD JOHN HALL are respectfully invited to follow his remains to the place of interment, in the Coburg Cemetery. The funeral is appointed to leave his father's residence, Flett Street, South Preston TOMORROW (Sunday), 16th December, at 3 o'clock.
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Excellent. Still don't know his name is Richard though but I suppose it can be presumed.

When I'm bored I do an audit of the early games looking at the one or two game, one season players. It sometimes finds something or it leads seredipitiously to other finds as it did with Hall last night with the series of articles on early families.
 
35Daicos said:
Found one, Harry!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190656001 (The Age 25 June 1897)

Victorian Junior Association -- Permits have been granted to ~~~
R. Hall, Collingwood to Albion United;

I tend to be rather cynical as well when it comes to the records from (especially) the early days of the game, that's why I'm happy to spend a lot of time looking through this sort of stuff! Sometimes, there just isn't any real mystery at all and the records are correct.

It would be interesting to know why he only played the one game for Collingwood in 1897, and then headed off to play in a lesser competition, when he had been a premiership player (and played regularly) in the top competition only a few months earlier. The poor fellow died in 1906 (aged 34); I wonder what happened there as well.

Edit: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201678447 (15 Dec. 1906)

HALL.— The Friends of the late Mr. RICHARD JOHN HALL are respectfully invited to follow his remains to the place of interment, in the Coburg Cemetery. The funeral is appointed to leave his father's residence, Flett Street, South Preston TOMORROW (Sunday), 16th December, at 3 o'clock.
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As the OCR software is not 100% accurate due to the quality of the old newsprint, do you have a method of searching for names when this sort of thing occurs? For instance, I saw in the article about the Hall clearance that Hall's name is translated as "llall" in the side text
 
Gibbsy said:
As the OCR software is not 100% accurate due to the quality of the old newsprint, do you have a method of searching for names when this sort of thing occurs? For instance, I saw in the article about the Hall clearance that Hall's name is translated as "llall" in the side text
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I don't have any particular 'clever' method of searching for people's names on Trove. Somebody else may have one that they're prepared to divulge!! In this case I just decided to look for (The phrase) "Collingwood to" and searched from May 1897 (when he played his last game for Collingwood) to the end of 1899, in the hope of finding his permit to transfer to another club. Luckily it came up reasonably quickly.

Interestingly, just two names below Hall's they clearly have "P. Descrimet, (in the paper itself, not just the side text) Fitzroy to Royal Park Crescent;". This is no doubt meant to be Pat Descrimes, who ended up a Fitzroy premiership player (obviously he went back to the club having apparently left it!), which shows what you can be up against with these searches!

I should have also had a look a day or so ago for his funeral/death notice using the date on his AustralianFootball.com page:- http://australianfootball.com/players/player/dick+hall/907 [Died 15 December 1906 (aged 34)]

I'd be interested to know where that site gets the DoD from, the AFL perhaps? Since his death and funeral notices are in the paper on the 15th he pretty obviously had to have died before then, the death notice in The Argus says he died on the 14th (confirmed by In Memoriam notices a year later).

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9640654
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205002014
 
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Gibbsy said:
As the OCR software is not 100% accurate due to the quality of the old newsprint, do you have a method of searching for names when this sort of thing occurs? For instance, I saw in the article about the Hall clearance that Hall's name is translated as "llall" in the side text
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I've just logged in and corrected the OCR so it now reads as Hall, not llall.

It is a detective story if you like, just have to try a range of other words and/or team names
which might be used in the type of article you are searching for.
 
rbartlett said:
Hi all..

So to clarify everyones submissions he's what we think has happened. Is this what everyone agrees with:
1. We believe Norman Turnbull (who played for StKilda and Richmond ) is Norman Albert Victor Turnbull...
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the croucher said:
The Vic BDMs site includes a record of birth for a Norman Turnbull registered in 1896 with father shown as David Walter Turnbull. D W is a brother to James Turnbull who died on 10 August 1911, a notice the next day includes ref to James having a son N A ...

I think we have a case of two Turnbull boys being born in the mid-1890s both named Norman and being first cousins !!
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This is almost certainly correct. The article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article183956684 refers to Norman (the footballer/horse trainer) being a cousin of Ernest Turnbull - president of the RSL - who has an ADB entry http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/turnbull-ernest-8881 which names him as the son of David Walter (and therefore a cousin to Norman Albert Victor)

Although there is no birth record in Victorian records for Norman Albert Victor, the death notices of his parents James Keith Turnbull and Catherine Rose both indicate he was their son.

There are 9 Norman Turnbulls in Victorian Birth records born between 1880 and 1900 but none of them are cousins to Ernest (although one is the brother).
 

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And some of them did wear hats in the game.

cf obituary of arch Swannie Record 7 June 1941

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164983312

PS this obituary also raises an issue. It says Archie Swannie played for South Melbourne in 1896 to after 1897.

Swannie's biography lists him as having only played 13 games in 1897.

Serendipity again......
 
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Harry Hook said:
Swannie's name was Archibald Ernest Swannie

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article221145732

Weekly times 6 May 1899

Although it appears his obituary is wrong because as it appears he was playing VFA in 1898 to 1899.
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In early to mid-1898, it seems he played with Hawthorn in Junior Association matches:
ref here to him being elected captain of that side, see top of column 3 on this page:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/23312197

ref here to him getting a permit to play with them
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191498172
 
the croucher said:
In early to mid-1898, it seems he played with Hawthorn in Junior Association matches:
ref here to him being elected captain of that side, see top of column 3 on this page:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/23312197

ref here to him getting a permit to play with them
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191498172
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At the very least Swannies biography could be altered to show that he won a bravery award. Who knows? Another poster ( not me as my relatives were from overseas) may be related to the young lass saved by Swannie
 
Harry Hook said:
Swannie's name was Archibald Ernest Swannie

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article221145732

Weekly times 6 May 1899

Although it appears his obituary is wrong because as it appears he was playing VFA in 1898 to 1899.
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Interestingly, the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers (who name him Archibald 'Bob' Swannie) have him as playing just 6 games (4 goals) in 1897, yet the official records make it 13 games (4 goals) in his one and only VFL season.

I'm hoping a new edition of that book is coming out one of these days, but it does look like they have a few errors to fix up. I presume they talk to the AFL Statistics/History people to find out about any changes in the records that have been made before releasing a new edition.
 
35Daicos said:
Interestingly, the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers (who name him Archibald 'Bob' Swannie) have him as playing just 6 games (4 goals) in 1897, yet the official records make it 13 games (4 goals) in his one and only VFL season.

I'm hoping a new edition of that book is coming out one of these days, but it does look like they have a few errors to fix up. I presume they talk to the AFL Statistics/History people to find out about any changes in the records that have been made before releasing a new edition.
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I haven't checked if the official record or the book is right but I would not expect that Jim Main, a swans supporter and the author of the book, wouldn't have made some research to find out what was correct.
 

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In a by no means scientific search, I located Swannie in 9 of his 13 games but missed him being referred to in the Collingwood (May 1897), Fitzroy (June), Melbourne (June)and St Kilda (July) games.

Most of the references I found were in the Record, an Emerald Hill newspaper (the local paper).

Again by no means scientific so could have missed something.

Late edit:

Found a reference to Swannie in reports of the Colingwood game and the Melbourne game.

The Fitzroy game was a midweek game so reporting on that is modest and the Record interestingly does not appear to include Swannie in its team list for the July 1897 game.
 
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Harry Hook said:
In a by no means scientific search, I located Swannie in 9 of his 13 games but missed him being referred to in the Collingwood (May 1897), Fitzroy (June), Melbourne (June)and St Kilda (July) games.

Most of the references I found were in the Record, an Emerald Hill newspaper (the local paper).
Again by no means scientific so could have missed something.

Late edit: Found a reference to Swannie in reports of the Collingwood game and the Melbourne game.

The Fitzroy game was a midweek game so reporting on that is modest and the Record interestingly does not appear to include Swannie in its team list for the July 1897 game.
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He is listed in the Record report for R7 v Fitzroy : http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482567
For R10 v St Kilda the team in the Record matches the official record except for Swannie - "Guinane" is named as a follower but I can find no other reference to such a player. (note: the report names Minahan = O'Gorman - see players with assumed names) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482651

The best check I can think of would be the Herald - but 1897 is not in Google archive so would require a trip to SLV
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
He is listed in the Record report for R7 v Fitzroy : http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482567
For R10 v St Kilda the team in the Record matches the official record except for Swannie - "Guinane" is named as a follower but I can find no other reference to such a player. (note: the report names Minahan = O'Gorman - see players with assumed names) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482651

The best check I can think of would be the Herald - but 1897 is not in Google archive so would require a trip to SLV
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I see the 1992 edition of 'The Encyclopedia' gives "Guinane" 1 game for South in 1897!!! All subsequent editions (that I have) omit him. Swannie has 6 games in the 1992 book.
 
35Daicos said:
I see the 1992 edition of 'The Encyclopedia' gives "Guinane" 1 game for South in 1897!!! All subsequent editions (that I have) omit him. Swannie has 6 games in the 1992 book.
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This strongly suggests others have already investigated and updated official records accordingly...

FYI: I've updated Swannie's wikipedia entry to reflect his broader footy career and rescue/award as mentioned above. He played for a few clubs over his 8 yr career!
 
Just doing some freelancing about St Kilda 1897 results and found an oddity.

Attached is a report from what appear to be the St Kilda local newspaper, the Prahran Telegraph, of 29 May 1897 for the St Kilda v South Melbourne game.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144636909

You will note the score is listed as South Melbourne 60 St Kilda 2 and quarter by quarter breakdowns are provided.

If however you go to AFL Tables the score is listed as for that game as 59-2 and the quarter by quarter breakdowns are given.

There is also the Record report of the game (Record was the local SM paper) and which gives a detailed report of the game

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482444
The Argus matches the Record's scores.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9163140

However the quarter by quarter scores don't match closely ( as is usually the case with these 1 point differences).

First quarter score

PT 0-1 ST K
3-3 SM

AFL Tables

0-1 ST K
2-4 SM

Record

0-1 St K
3-4 SM

Second quarter score

PT 0-1 ST K
5-6 SM

AFL 0-1 ST K
5-8 SM

Record

0-1 STK
5-8 SM


Third quarter score

PT 0-2 STK
6-8 SM

AFL

0-1 ST K
6-9 SM

Record

0-1 ST K
6.9 SM


Fourth quarter score

PT 0-2 STK
8-12 SM

AFL 0-2 STK
8-11 SM

Record 0-2 StK
8-11 SM

At the very least there is some confusion with the major source being the first quarter score but there being other differences as well.

NB note that the Record refers to a Stewart of St Kilda as being Dick Stewart but does not say which Stewart ( Ernie and Reg Stewart both played that day) was "Dick"
 
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More on St Kilda.

AFL records have Harry Gower as playing 2 games for the Saints in 1897.

This report of the Prahran Telegraph of May 1897 suggests his name was R Gower and gives his original club as Caulfield Juniors.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144640526

The report is signnificant as it gives some detail to the underreported St Kilda team of 1897.

For instance Bill Turner is listed as having played 10 games in 1897 but A Turner is listed as being ex Carlton.

Similarly A Bedford is listed as being ex Melbourne and is presumably Alf Bedford.
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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