Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

Oh how interesting is this. A look at the clubs game by game team that we have for 1901 season DOESN'T have a McDonald playing.
Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald plays his first game for Richmond VFA on May 17 1902 vs Nth.
The Annual Report also does not list him in the team list in 1901, but does in 1902.
So maybe his permit to Richmond occurred early 1902, not middle 1901.

Doh! I've just been looking through the Herald from mid-1901 onwards (the time he stopped playing for Carlton) and that would explain the absence of a McDonald in the squads named in the Friday papers. It would be interesting to see just how long he plays for Richmond, as we probably still need to find another player with that last name between 1902 and 1908!

Edit: Just saw the bit you added to your last post. Very interesting! It would be very good if a permit/story with another McDonald joining Richmond in 1908 (or so) appeared. That's if there was a second one.

 

[35Daicos]

Oh how interesting is this. A look at the clubs game by game team that we have for 1901 season DOESN'T have a McDonald playing.
Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald plays his first game for Richmond VFA on May 17 1902 vs Nth.
The Annual Report also does not list him in the team list in 1901, but does in 1902.
So maybe his permit to Richmond occurred early 1902, not middle 1901.

AND then in the 1907 Annual Report is lists E McDonald as a players for Richmond, but in 1908 Annual Report there is NO McDonald listed in the team listing. Someone has handwritten in Edward McDonald ? and then Ernest ? (those handwritten additions may only have been recently made , ie: 1980s onwards).
Maybe it isn't Rhoda, but a new McDonald who lasted only 4 games in 1908 and hence when it came time to publish the annual report they forgot him cause his game were so early in the season and it was the more well known long serving Rhoda.

Looking at the match reports in The Age, The Argus and The Australasian for the 1908 Rd. 1 game (when Ernie [Ernest V.] McDonald is supposed to have played the first of his 4 games), though many new players (for both sides) get a mention there is nothing said about McDonald at all. If he was a new player, that would surely be a bit strange.

 

[rbartlett]

Looking at the match reports in The Age, The Argus and The Australasian for the 1908 Rd. 1 game (when Ernie [Ernest V.] McDonald is supposed to have played the first of his 4 games), though many new players (for both sides) get a mention there is nothing said about McDonald at all. If he was a new player, that would surely be a bit strange.

And the first Richmond VFL team photo is Rd 5 1908, the week after McDonald finishes.

 

[Harry Hook]

Looking at the match reports in The Age, The Argus and The Australasian for the 1908 Rd. 1 game (when Ernie [Ernest V.] McDonald is supposed to have played the first of his 4 games), though many new players (for both sides) get a mention there is nothing said about McDonald at all. If he was a new player, that would surely be a bit strange.

I concur completely with this.

McDonald's first game in 1908 is against Melbourne on 2 May 1908.

The Age Report of the game of 4 May 1908 is best:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197341206

It clearly sets out the news players and where they came from.

McDonald nor M'Donald are part of them.

 

[rbartlett]

I concur completely with this.

McDonald's first game in 1908 is against Melbourne on 2 May 1908.

The Age Report of the game of 4 May 1908 is best:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197341206

It clearly sets out the news players and where they came from.

McDonald nor M'Donald are part of them.

So, potentially- we are leaning towards 1 player - Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald and Ernie McDonald being the same person.
That being Ernest Rhoda McDonald Richmond VFA 1902, 1904-1907 and then VFL 1908 (4 games) ....

But does that throw a spanner in the works with the later McDonald for Essendon in 1912.
Doesn't the movements from Richmond's 'Rhoda" after 1908 , suggest he then went to Footscray and then Essendon ... which then may connect to Ted McDonald...who isn't the same player.

 

[35Daicos]

So, potentially- we are leaning towards 1 player - Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald and Ernie McDonald being the same person.
That being Ernest Rhoda McDonald Richmond VFA 1902, 1904-1907 and then VFL 1908 (4 games) ....

But does that throw a spanner in the works with the later McDonald for Essendon in 1912.
Doesn't the movements from Richmond's 'Rhoda" after 1908 , suggest he then went to Footscray and then Essendon ... which then may connect to Ted McDonald...who isn't the same player.

We know that Ted McDonald (the cricketer) went from Richmond (in 1911 without playing a game) to Footscray then to Essendon (in 1912) and finally to Fitzroy. Is there anything at all that suggests 'Rhoda' left Richmond for Footscray then went to Essendon?

There's obviously still a chance the 1908 Richmond player wasn't Rhoda (and that's how the records still have it) but finding something that confirms he was a new player is proving difficult, and it is quite likely that there was just Rhoda (McDonald) from 1902-08.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

So, potentially- we are leaning towards 1 player - Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald and Ernie McDonald being the same person.
That being Ernest Rhoda McDonald Richmond VFA 1902, 1904-1907 and then VFL 1908 (4 games) ....

But does that throw a spanner in the works with the later McDonald for Essendon in 1912.
Doesn't the movements from Richmond's 'Rhoda" after 1908 , suggest he then went to Footscray and then Essendon ... which then may connect to Ted McDonald...who isn't the same player.

I think I've found something that will help here.
The 1903 Richmond FC annual report lists two players: R. McDONALD and E. McDONALD and both are credited with scoring goals in the 1902 season so both must have played if this is a true record.
The 1905 annual report lists them both as members but only E. McDONALD is listed as a player.
It suggests both played in 1902 (no idea how to work out who played which games!) and everything after there is likely to be E. V. MCDONALD

 

[Harry Hook]

So, potentially- we are leaning towards 1 player - Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald and Ernie McDonald being the same person.
That being Ernest Rhoda McDonald Richmond VFA 1902, 1904-1907 and then VFL 1908 (4 games) ....

But does that throw a spanner in the works with the later McDonald for Essendon in 1912.
Doesn't the movements from Richmond's 'Rhoda" after 1908 , suggest he then went to Footscray and then Essendon ... which then may connect to Ted McDonald...who isn't the same player.

The Essendon situation in 1912 is a different issue, one I did not research for the following reasons:

(a) in 1908, there was a finite number of football players playing in Victoria but that as we have seen is not the full story so we look at the contemporary evidence:
(b) 1908 was richmond's first season in the VFL and there were bound to be be changes, In Richmond's case, the Age details those changes in the report including where those players came from. Those changed players do not include McDonald;
(c) There is no permit evidence in early 1908 to suggest there was any new player named McDonald:
(d) In teams starting a new league, there is a natural desire to keep some continuity with the old playing side, in that new season. Equally, it is sometimes the case an old player gets exposed at the start of the new season and after a few games is replaced by a junior or new player. In this case, McDonald has a few years of football under his belt allready so it is feasible that after 4 games he either saw or was shown the writing on the wall; and
(e) There is no contemporary evidence ( or later) that the 1908 McDonald was different to the 1907 McDonald.

But, and in these matters I am guided by the principle that there is always other data that may be looked , even if it conflicts with the contemporary and logical data.

Now if Ted McDonald played for Richmond in 1908, you'd expect some reference to in the Tasmanian newspaper reports in 1909 when he played cricket and football in Tasmania. I couldn't find one.

In 1937 the Sporting Globe did a bio of Ted McDonald:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180836772

which says he played League football for Richmond

but then there is this report of the Sporting Globe for E A McDonald of 17 January 1925

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184816797


which refers only to Essendon and Fitzroy

So what of the permit trail for EA McDonald ( assuming we are talking of one one E A McDonald which is always dangerous)

We have Fitzroy to the Essendon Association team in 1919

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1468346

We have Essendon to Fitzroy in 1913
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10781120

We have Footscray to Essendon in 1912

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11670383

Note in this series of clearances, there is a clear reference to a Launceston to Carlton for Challis permit.

At this stage I would not say E A McDonald played for Richmond in 1908.

 

[35Daicos]

So, potentially- we are leaning towards 1 player - Ernie "Rhoda" McDonald and Ernie McDonald being the same person.
That being Ernest Rhoda McDonald Richmond VFA 1902, 1904-1907 and then VFL 1908 (4 games) ....

Don't you have a McDonald playing at all in 1903? It does look as if there was (at least) one that year.

I think I've found something that will help here.
The 1903 Richmond FC annual report lists two players: R. McDONALD and E. McDONALD and both are credited with scoring goals in the 1902 season so both must have played if this is a true record.
The 1905 annual report lists them both as members but only E. McDONALD is listed as a player.
It suggests both played in 1902 (no idea how to work out who played which games!) and everything after there is likely to be E. V. MCDONALD

Those are meant to be goals scored in the 1903 season, aren't they? It has E. McDonald 9, R. McDonald 1. That matches the 10 for McDonald I can see on this page:- http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/ww/1903.htm

This site appears to be really well researched, and well worth checking out:- http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/

This is certainly a mystery, and the club really should have known (at the time) if there were the two McDonald's playing in the same year (!), yet I haven't seen anything in team lineups or match reports where initials are given, or squads named where it says McDonald (2), as is seen with other players.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Don't you have a McDonald playing at all in 1903? It does look as if there was (at least) one that year.

Those are meant to be goals scored in the 1903 season, aren't they? It has E. McDonald 9, R. McDonald 1. That matches the 10 for McDonald I can see on this page:- http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/ww/1903.htm

This site appears to be really well researched, and well worth checking out:- http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/

This is certainly a mystery, and the club really should have known (at the time) if there were the two McDonald's playing in the same year (!), yet I haven't seen anything in team lineups or match reports where initials are given, or squads named where it says McDonald (2), as is seen with other players.

Yes - my bad - 1903 season it is... this also ties in well with the photo from Boyles site with two McDonalds in it from 1903.
From an age perspective it makes sense that Ernie V McDonald might commence his senior career in 1903 (born Jan 1883)

 

[35Daicos]

Yes - my bad - 1903 season it is... this also ties in well with the photo from Boyles site with two McDonalds in it from 1903.
From an age perspective it makes sense that Ernie V McDonald might commence his senior career in 1903 (born Jan 1883)

I, too, am starting to think that Rhoda must have been gone after 1903 leaving Ernie V as the only McDonald playing from then on. The likely reason the 1908 player wasn't described as "new" (as commented on in earlier posts) would be that he had been there for quite a few years.

 

[rbartlett]

Not sure if this helps.

Richmond Annual Reports under PLAYERS have the following:
1901 - no McDonalds
1902 - E McDonald
1903 - R McDonald and E McDonald
1904 - E McDonald
1905 - E McDonald
1906 - E McDonald
1907 - E McDonald
1908 - None listed - though there is a handwritten entry of McDonald Edward? 4, 0 goals. and a Ernest underlined that may have been added only recently

Now, our Game by Game table (which was created about 15 years ago) for the 1903 season has this:

Ernest "Rhoda" McDonald Pre Season: 13/4, 18/4, Premiership games: 11/7, 25/7, 8/8, 15/8, 22/8, 29/8, 5/9, 19/9 (8 games, 9 goals)

R McDonald: 11/7 (that would indicate both McDonalds played in the 11/7 match) , 1/8 (2 games 1 goal)

So... in summary.... it could be deduced that

R McDonald played 1903 , 2 games 1 goal
E McDonald played 1902-1908 (VFA and VFL)

 

[rbartlett]

Just a bit of data for you.
Ted Hall who played for StKilda 1897-1902, played for Richmond in 1903
'Ted Hall from StKilda played well for a new man' - Australasian 6 June 1903 and "Jolly luck for "Joker Hall" to hurt his leg but he managed to kick a goal afterwards with the crook 'un" - Football Jottings 'Punter" Rich vs Port - Richmond Minute Book

 

[rbartlett]

So I've not digitised Richmond's Minute Books, so this may help fill in the gaps or raise new questions... like this one.

Rich vs Preston 4/7/1903 Under 'Football Jottings' newspaper cutting - 'Charlie Gibb an absentee owing to an injured knee'.
Now, we have a Gibb playing for us that year - but we have him as Percy Gibb (who went to Collingwood)
Our game by game records shows Percy Gibb absent from the Preston game, but back the next week.
The 1903 Annual Report only has P Gibb . So do I just gather Charlie is an error or some sort, or a moniker

 

[rbartlett]

So... in summary.... it could be deduced that

R McDonald played 1903 , 2 games 1 goal
E McDonald played 1902-1908 (VFA and VFL)

In the Minute Book , is the newspaper cutting from the Herald for the 11/7 game.
Goalkickers: Lyons, R (handwritten in) McDonald, Hall, Maine (3), E McDonald (handwritten in).

The teams in the Herald have
Backs: McCane, Boanas, E Justin
HB: Edmonds, Watson, McDonald
C: Richardson, Backhouse, Gibb
HF: E Wade, Catlin, Hall
Followers : Lyons, Williams, Rover: Geggie

As you can see, they forgot to print the Forward line. Where I gather one of the 'McDonalds' would be listed.

Interestingly under 'To Be Played' for the upcoming Richmond vs Footscray match, the Richmond squad has McDonald (2).

Later on in the Richmond vs Prahran match, the Herald has the team
HF: Lyons, Hall , R McDonald
(the only other players with first initial printed in that team lineup are E Justins, Justins)

then the following week in Richmond vs Essendon, the Herald has the team
HF: Hall, McDonald, Wade

then for Richmond vs Port , the Herald has the team
Hf: E. McDonald, Hall, McNair

then for Brunswick vs Richmond ,the Herald has the team
HF: Hall, McDonald, McNair


then West Melb vs Richmond , the Herald has the team
HF: McDonald, Hall, McNair

and all further Herald teams list McDonald with no initial

 

[rbartlett]

This is Rhoda McDonald from his Collingwood days (1896-97). Would you say he looks enough like the player in the Richmond photo?
View attachment 429634

Btw the E. McDonald in 1902 would appear in this team photo of Richmond vs Bendigo at end of season (he is listed in match report).
Comparing photos it is possible he is one of the guys right up the far back.
http://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/...an/Bendigonian_-_28-Sep-1902_p10_Richmond.jpg

(sorry I don't know how to embed the actual photo on here ... do I have to save it to a hosting site first)

 

[RedmanWasHere]

That photo Rhett is talking about right here.

R.e. uploading photos, copy the photo, click on the image of the hills and the sun, paste the photo in that box and she's all good.

 

[rbartlett]

I'm really not at all sure about this one, Rhett. There's no doubt that Sylvester John Cathie and the 'famous' George Cathie are brothers, and there's a good chance that S. J. Cathie was the Jack Cathie who played for Richmond, but I can't find anything that says the Richmond player is connected to George Cathie. I also haven't found anything that says where the Richmond player came from, which is strange, given that he was apparently a well-regarded player. The Leopold club (where George came from) had quite a few Cathie's, and there was an S.J. Cathie at the club around then (an administrator).

Somebody else might want to have a look and might find a definitive answer.

Have made contacted with Sylvester John Cathie's grand daughter.
She has provided me with a photo (however I don't know how to upload it, cause its not saved to any website).
She did say that he also had been known as Vess Cathie. His mothers obit is here which shows Vess, Jack Eaglehawk

So doing a search for Vess Cathie brings up a reference in 1903 with the Port Melbourne Cricket Club on a trip and Vess Cathie there taking photos.
And Jack Cathie's last game with Richmond was 15 August vs Brunswick 1903... so that could be a possibility.
I'm just missing the one piece of evidence connecting Jack Cathie for Richmond as Sylvester John Cathie. As stated earlier his War reports says he stopped football at age 21 which would have made it around 1899, yet he played for us from 1900-1903, yet maybe didnt play any footy after that.

 

[Gibbsy]

Have made contacted with Sylvester John Cathie's grand daughter.
She has provided me with a photo (however I don't know how to upload it, cause its not saved to any website).
She did say that he also had been known as Vess Cathie. His mothers obit is here which shows Vess, Jack Eaglehawk

So doing a search for Vess Cathie brings up a reference in 1903 with the Port Melbourne Cricket Club on a trip and Vess Cathie there taking photos.
And Jack Cathie's last game with Richmond was 15 August vs Brunswick 1903... so that could be a possibility.
I'm just missing the one piece of evidence connecting Jack Cathie for Richmond as Sylvester John Cathie. As stated earlier his War reports says he stopped football at age 21 which would have made it around 1899, yet he played for us from 1900-1903, yet maybe didnt play any footy after that.

Rhett, in the reply box next to 'post reply' click on 'upload a file' and then upload from your computer. I'm keen to see it.

 

[rbartlett]

So this is Sylvester John Cathie from his WW1 days.

The question is, does he appear in the 1902 Richmond team photo. (posted a few posts up). The team photo is from their match vs Bendigo where 'Jack Cathie' was there as part of the squad. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89485984

 

[35Daicos]

So this is Sylvester John Cathie from his WW1 days.

The question is, does he appear in the 1902 Richmond team photo. (posted a few posts up). The team photo is from their match vs Bendigo where 'Jack Cathie' was there as part of the squad. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89485984

I really aren't at all sure with the photos, Rhett. A chap standing at the back on the right side of the door looks like it might be him, but there must be a gap of 13-14 or so years between the photos.

Here's the (1944) Death Notice for his sister; it mentions George and Vess (Jack) Cathie:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11814170

Perhaps we might be able to find something that links Vess Cathie from Port Melbourne Cricket Club with the footballer from Richmond.

 

[rbartlett]

I really aren't at all sure with the photos, Rhett. A chap standing at the back on the right side of the door looks like it might be him, but there must be a gap of 13-14 or so years between the photos.

To me that's the one who seems to have a resemblance.. but we can't be sure.

 

[35Daicos]

To me that's the one who seems to have a resemblance.. but we can't be sure.

The Eaglehawk connection (mentioned in his mother's death notice) may offer something. You can see a few mentions of S J Cathie in the papers from around that time. This fellow was obviously involved in football, but still no definite connection to the Richmond player from many years before!

Following an application by the Bendigo Football Umpires' League for appointments during the season, Mr. S. J. Cathie (Eaglehawk) strongly criticised the performance of Melbourne umpires. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203839963 (1934)

Edit: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227699658 (1893)
^ Here's S Cathie and G Cathie playing for Leopold back in 1893, that may well be the two brothers. It's known that George Cathie played for that club before joining Melbourne:- http://demonwiki.org/George+Cathie

 

[GreyCrow]

I might be missing something but to me SylVESter and VESs go well together

Jack of course is John

 

[35Daicos]

To me that's the one who seems to have a resemblance.. but we can't be sure.

I really aren't very confident about this one!! S. J. Cathie was the Leopold secretary in 1901, he left the position in 1903 ("after many years of hard work"). George Cathie (Leopold/Melbourne) and Sylvester John Cathie are almost certainly brothers, I'd say. Surely it's very unlikely S J Cathie would have been playing for Richmond (1900-03) while being so involved with Leopold? He probably had to retire from playing a few years earlier than that (more correctly matching what it says in his army record).

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164946038
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165174777

Incidentally, Leopold FC (in 1900 at least) had Port Melbourne Cricket Ground as it's headquarters, so that may explain why Vess Cathie had a connection with Port Melbourne CC.