Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

That's one hell of a name (De Gruchy.)

As for the shortest span between career and death, Les Witto surely has it in the bag.

I think he sustained a break in his arm and it went downhill and died a few days later.

https://australianfootball.com/articles/view/the+death+of+les+witto/2107

The news of the death of Leslie Witto, the Carlton footballer who hailed from Broken Hill, in the Melbourne Hospital on August 23, has come as a shock to footballers generally, and Carlton players particularly. Witto met with an accident in the last quarter of the game against Geelong on August 14. Leaping for a mark he fell over another player, coming down heavily with his arm doubled beneath him. One of the broken bones was forced through the flesh, and he was admitted to the hospital.

He had been progressing favourably until tetanus developed. He was at once isolated front the other patients but never recovered, dying as stated. I saw him play against Richmond and Melbourne, and he was a fine type of footballer. It is shocking that his death should have been caused in such a manner, and so far away from home. He was 23 years of age, and lived at Northcote.

Edit: Carlton's Lyle Downs (mentioned in the above article) died from a heart attack after training on 7 July 1921. He played his last game on 2 July 1921.

https://australianfootball.com/articles/view/the+death+of+lyle+downs/1707

The dramatic death of Lyle E. Downs in the Carlton dressing room on Thursday evening, July 7, created a most painful sensation. On the previous Saturday, in the match against Collingwood, he had received a severe bump on the shoulder, which had not thoroughly recovered during the week. He was in the act of getting the injured shoulder massaged when he suddenly fell forward and died without speaking.

Two years ago, acting on medical advice, Downs ceased playing as his heart was overstrained. However, he played again at the latter end of the season, being apparently quite sound in health. Evidently his heart had not thoroughly recovered.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Couple of other early players who died within a couple of weeks of their final appearance are:
Dinny McKay who died 10 days after his final game for South Melb in 1897 from a burst appendix (first VFL player to die)
Dan Moriarty who died 11 days after his final game for Melbourne - he was decapitated late one night by a freight train near Jolimont railway station. The coroner's inquest determined that he probably died whilst suffering an epileptic fit

 

[35Daicos]

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_Australian_rules_footballers_who_died_during_their_careers

Essendon's Doug Tassell died in a car accident on 20 June 1970 (aged 24), five days after playing his last game (15 June).

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Harry Guy (SM, 1903) currently has DOD 23 Dec 1960

This death date seems to be for his son (also called Harry Guy) who was born in 1908
The footballer (born in 1881) had full name Harry Augustus Guy and he died in Launceston on 10 Jan 1958
Death details from Carr Villa Cemetery in Launceston can be found at https://carrvilladb.launceston.tas.gov.au/index.php?ID=28020

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Also have questions about Herb Hudson (St Kilda 1903)
Current DOB/DOD match a Herbert Charles Hudson who was born & died in NSW (and as far as I can tell never lived in Victoria)

News reports are clear that he came from Korumburra, and searching on Trove I find G. Hudson and N. Hudson as prominent players for Korumburra from 1901 onwards. From Ancestry electoral rolls these are brothers George (1871-1905) and Nathaniel (1873-1928) - there is only the one Hudson family in Korumburra at this time. I can find nothing to indicate the first name/initial for the St Kilda player from 1903 papers.

I suspect Nat Hudson might have been the St Kilda player (at age 29) rather than Herb but have no clear evidence for this.

 

[GreyCrow]

Both brothers died in Mining accidents.

None of the stories mention their sporting exploits

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jack “Dookie” McKenzie played for Essendon, Essendon Association, Brunswick and Melbourne.

He died on 21 March 1946 as per http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article245399387 and this is date in official AFL records.

Dookie’s sister Elizabeth Christina McKenzie (1876–1946) married William Orlando Casey who played for Carlton & Brunswick - see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article87755430

Birth record for Elizabeth Christina McKenzie (Vic BDM 1876/19381) names parents Alexander John McKenzie and Johanna Scott.
John McKenzie was born in Carlton to John McKenzie and Johanna Scott as per Vic BDM 1881/21986

The problem is current football records have “Dookie” McKenzie's DOB as 12 November 1882 which cannot be correct if birth was registered in 1881.

The source of the issue is probably this news article in 1935 where Dookie himself claims to have been born on 12 Nov 1882 in Fitzroy
The 12 Nov date is almost certainly correct but I think it should be 12 Nov 1881

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Just found a copy of birth certificate on Ancestry - DOB should be 10 Nov 1881 and location Fitzroy North / Northcote (18 High St is now in south end of Northcote)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Think I have another mis-identified player

Alec Moffatt is credited with 3 games for St Kilda in 1904

When searching for this player on Ancestry I found dates of birth/death were for Alexander William Moffat (single T) but he also seems to have spent all his life in Rutherglen / Wangaratta area which doesn’t really correlate with him coming from Hastings

So Trove gave me:
This report from early 1904 naming him as “Arnie Moffatt”
A search of Moffatt & Hastings in the Mornington Standard shows both A. Moffatt and F. Moffatt as local sportsmen
This article confirms it was “A. Moffatt” that played with St Kilda

Looking on Ancestry at electoral rolls the only matches in 1903 were for “Frank Blackall Moffit” and “Sarah Ann Moffit”, the first of which is presumably the F. Moffatt named in reports

This led me to a well researched family tree for the Moffitt’s and it contains:

Arnold Hastie Moffitt
Born 12 Dec 1883 in Caulfield (see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11839245)
Died in July 1963 – see https://smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/result/281008

EDIT: Forgot to mention - he also enlisted in the Reserve in WWII so is another player who served

This seems to be a much better fit for what we know about the player
Also found a mug shot of him from 1916 - a bit of George Clooney about him...

 

[rbartlett]

Been doing a lot of research on Jim Deane (SA/Richmond)
At one point he is appointed coach of S.E.C in the Saturday Morning League
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26591937
Is that just a team made up of employees from The State Electricity Commission?

 

[Supermercado]

Ex-test cricketer John McIlwraith is held to have played for Melbourne in the 1880s based on a reference from the book Everything you ever wanted to know about Australian rules football but couldn't be bothered asking but I can't find any mention of him playing for the club in any context - Second 20 or seniors via Trove or the Mark Pennings book that lists VFA era players. I'm going to downgrade him off my Pre-VFL players list into the questionables, but if anyone with mad Google Fu skills can pull out a reference to him playing for the football club at any level I'd appreciate it.

 

[the croucher]

Ex-test cricketer John McIlwraith is held to have played for Melbourne in the 1880s based on a reference from the book Everything you ever wanted to know about Australian rules football but couldn't be bothered asking but I can't find any mention of him playing for the club in any context - Second 20 or seniors via Trove or the Mark Pennings book that lists VFA era players. I'm going to downgrade him off my Pre-VFL players list into the questionables, but if anyone with mad Google Fu skills can pull out a reference to him playing for the football club at any level I'd appreciate it.

I've just had a check on Trove - cannot see any ref to him playing with Melbourne.

To be honest, I don't think you should even have him on the "questionables" list.
Atkinson's book is one of the most disappointing "footy history" resources I have ever come across.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Tom Williams played a couple of games for Essendon at the start of the 1903 season.
Official record has Date of birth 30 April 1880 Date of death 1 July 1950

His permit to Essendon indicated he came from West Perth
Not many refs to a Williams playing for West Perth in 1902 that I could find, but I did find this article from July 1902 that states "Now they (West Perth) have a good man from Richmond in Williams"

So I had a look at rbartlett's Tigerland Archive site and found
Thomas "Tom" James 'Tiny' Williams 1898-99, 1904-06
b: 28 May 1876 Sale
d:18 Sept 1938 Ballarat
Cleared to St Kilda 1900. Cleared to Sth Melb Jnrs 1901 It's possible they are two different players. (1898-99) and (1904-1906). A T. Williams permit from Ess (1903) to Richmond in 1904

Seems likely that this is one person who went
Richmond 1898-99
Leopold 1900-02 (although granted a clearance to St Kilda he is not credited with any games and I can find no evidence connecting him with the club)
West Perth 1902 (briefly)
Essendon 1903 (briefly)
Leopold 1903 (is mentioned as captain in July)
Richmond 1904-06

I assume the TigerlandArchive dates are correct ones for DOB/DOD

 

[rbartlett]

Tom Williams played a couple of games for Essendon at the start of the 1903 season.
Official record has Date of birth 30 April 1880 Date of death 1 July 1950

His permit to Essendon indicated he came from West Perth
Not many refs to a Williams playing for West Perth in 1902 that I could find, but I did find this article from July 1902 that states "Now they (West Perth) have a good man from Richmond in Williams"

So I had a look at rbartlett's Tigerland Archive site and found
Thomas "Tom" James 'Tiny' Williams 1898-99, 1904-06
b: 28 May 1876 Sale
d:18 Sept 1938 Ballarat

I assume the TigerlandArchive dates are correct ones for DOB/DOD

The DOB and DOD were obtained from his grandson in a twitter conversation with me on 20 June 2017
The grandson was unaware of Tom playing for Essendon he only knew of the Richmond career.

But looks like you have found that missing link I needed to connect the Essendon Tom with the Richmond Tom, which would mean his current DOB / DOD on Wiki is wrong.

Plus he was also a War player https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/93807367
Thomas James Williams - Munitions Worker, number 605. - according to his Grandson.

Summary: I agree with your breakdown of his career WhiteHartLane23 , and think his dob and dod on wiki/afl need to change.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Henry Hammond (SM) currently has DOD 17 July 1961 in online sources
As per Qld BDM record his correct DOD is 14 July 1961 (funeral was on 17th)

 

[Oliver G]

Hi guys,

I’ve just updated the following players on AF with the recent news regarding DOB/D, names, etc

George Kruse

https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/george kruse/1649

Harry Guy

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/harry+guy/1822

Jack McKenzie

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/jack+%27dookie%27+mckenzie/1531

Tom Williams (Added Richmond & West Perth seasons as well)

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Tom+Williams/1757

Henry Hammond

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Henry+Hammond/1707

Cheers,

Oliver

 

[rbartlett]

This article in 1933 about the best players in the Gippsland League, refers to a 'Mop' Gibb from Rosedale, who has been signed up by Melbourne.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article224474657

Looking at Demonwiki, it seems to be Maurice Gibb http://demonwiki.org/Maurie+Gibb

In the Trove article it says "Gibb's father was an old-time Richmond football and coached and captained Rosedale many seasons ago when they won the premiership".

Looking at BDM - Maurice Peter Gibb was born in 1914 (I'm guessing that's the Melb player) and his father was also Maurice

Now, looking at Tigerland archive we had Rupert Gibb play in 1922, and Len Gib play in 1914. So they don't match.
We had Percy Gibb in 1902, so that's not a match. But we did have a 'Gibb' in 1887 playing 1-5 games, according to Pennings Vol 5.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

I'm wondering if that "Gibb's father" in question?, but surely not cause the age range wouldn't fit right

 

[35Daicos]

This article in 1933 about the best players in the Gippsland League, refers to a 'Mop' Gibb from Rosedale, who has been signed up by Melbourne.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article224474657

Looking at Demonwiki, it seems to be Maurice Gibb http://demonwiki.org/Maurie+Gibb

In the Trove article it says "Gibb's father was an old-time Richmond football and coached and captained Rosedale many seasons ago when they won the premiership".

Looking at BDM - Maurice Peter Gibb was born in 1914 (I'm guessing that's the Melb player) and his father was also Maurice

Now, looking at Tigerland archive we had Rupert Gibb play in 1922, and Len Gib play in 1914. So they don't match.
We had Percy Gibb in 1902, so that's not a match. But we did have a 'Gibb' in 1887 playing 1-5 games, according to Pennings Vol 5.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

I'm wondering if that "Gibb's father" in question?, but surely not cause the age range wouldn't fit right

The age certainly doesn't fit right, as the father of Maurice Gibb (Melbourne player) was apparently still playing in 1933. As the father was also Maurice, how can that story be correct as Richmond don't have a player with that name who played for them - unless it was just at Reserves level, but the "old-time Richmond" part sounds very dubious?!

 

[rbartlett]

The age certainly doesn't fit right, as the father of Maurice Gibb (Melbourne player) was apparently still playing in 1933. As the father was also Maurice, how can that story be correct as Richmond don't have a player with that name who played for them - unless it was just at Reserves level, but the "old-time Richmond" part sounds very dubious?!

Can't see any Reserves player for Richmond between 1919-1930
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Reserves+Players

So the story must be completely wrong; as the existing DOB we have for Maurice "Mop" Gibb must be right, as he was a WW2 soldier VX127377

 

[35Daicos]

Can't see any Reserves player for Richmond between 1919-1930
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Reserves+Players

So the story must be completely wrong; as the existing DOB we have for Maurice "Mop" Gibb must be right, as he was a WW2 soldier VX127377

I'd say they have it wrong, for sure. According to that 1933 article the father was supposed to have been "still playing the game in the north-west of Victoria" (which is nowhere near Gippsland), yet when Maurice Gibb got married in 1938 his parents were living at Nyora, Gippsland. It all seems too unlikely!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Alex Sinclair played 3 games for St Kilda in 1902
He came from Beaufort and current DOB of January 1882 matches an 1882 Vic BDM record with parents George Peace Sinclair and Mary Morton
DOD of 9 March 1933 seems to match a death in Tasmania, however contemporary news reports indicate this was a man aged 63 - i.e. born around 1870 - so this doesn't seem to be such a good fit
Family trees on Ancestry show a marriage to Gladys Vels in South Africa in 1916 and indicate a death in Rhodesia in 1960 but I haven't found any sources to support this - can anyone on here find anything?

 

[35Daicos]

Alex Sinclair played 3 games for St Kilda in 1902
He came from Beaufort and current DOB of January 1882 matches an 1882 Vic BDM record with parents George Peace Sinclair and Mary Morton
DOD of 9 March 1933 seems to match a death in Tasmania, however contemporary news reports indicate this was a man aged 63 - i.e. born around 1870 - so this doesn't seem to be such a good fit
Family trees on Ancestry show a marriage to Gladys Vels in South Africa in 1916 and indicate a death in Rhodesia in 1960 but I haven't found any sources to support this - can anyone on here find anything?

A George Peace Sinclair died in Tasmania in 1908: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/151984209

It mentions that four of his sons were in South Africa. This names his wife as Mary.

This names Alexander as one of the sons in South Africa.

One concern is that this chap went from Ballarat to Tasmania in 1888, and presumably his family (at least the younger children) would have gone with him. So did Alex head back to Ballarat/Beaufort and then go to St Kilda in 1902?

Alex was still living in South Africa in 1928.

Presumably this would refer to the son of Alex Sinclair: "This is an extract from the logbook of P/O Alexander Elgar Peace Sinclair who was a navigator with 44 Rhodesia Squadron."

 

[the croucher]

Alex Sinclair played 3 games for St Kilda in 1902
He came from Beaufort and current DOB of January 1882 matches an 1882 Vic BDM record with parents George Peace Sinclair and Mary Morton
DOD of 9 March 1933 seems to match a death in Tasmania, however contemporary news reports indicate this was a man aged 63 - i.e. born around 1870 - so this doesn't seem to be such a good fit
Family trees on Ancestry show a marriage to Gladys Vels in South Africa in 1916 and indicate a death in Rhodesia in 1960 but I haven't found any sources to support this - can anyone on here find anything?

..And this obituary refers to the 1933 DOD Sinclair as being born in England and time in Qld before getting to Tas -
no ref to Victoria at all
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/24715816

 

[rbartlett]

Barb Cullen has obtained the death certificate of Walter Johnston the newly found 1908 Richmond player.
You may remember he had a Roll of Honour card, as per Stephen Rogers, so his death was war related.
The certificate says he died of a coronary occlusion. No inquest, but a post mortem was held.
It doesn't really give us that connecting info we need, but his death notice says he died suddenly so he must have had a heart problem relating to the war

 

[rbartlett]

One for the spreadsheet for the AFL WhiteHartLane23

Rd 3 1961, Anzac Matches, - Ess vs Melb, Richmond vs Sth Melb commenced at 2.30pm, not 2.20pm.
as per Footy Record, Rd 2, page 9.