Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

Good find, Rhett ! I imagine a check of Herald and Sporting Globe match reports via m/film at SLV would confirm.

Under newspaper heading "Kevin rallies Tigers" by Frank McGuire, it is written: "Matthew Wall got the perfect start to a League football career when he goaled with his first kick today..."

 

[Connor7395]

I think if anybody knows how to call data, someone can crawl AFL Tables and collect all player data where a player had the same number of kicks as goals early in his career. That might uncover a few missing players.

 

[Connor7395]

Possible first kick, first goal players in 1980 (bold = all kicks scored):

Phil Maylin (Carlton) - Round 1 - 16 kicks, 1.2
Marco Turio (North Melbourne) - Round 1 - 5 kicks, 1.2
Robert Anderson (Footscray) - Round 1 - 8 kicks, 3.0
Zane Taylor (Geelong) - Round 1 - 10 kicks, 1.0
Kevin Goss (South Melbourne) - Round 1 - 10 kicks, 1.0
John Roberts (South Melbourne) - Round 1 - 9 kicks, 3.1
Russell Rowe (Melbourne) - Round 1 - 16 kicks, 4.1
Michael Seddon (Melbourne) - Round 1 - 2 kicks, 1.1
Andy Bennett (Hawthorn) - Round 2 - 11 kicks, 1.4
Stephen Lunn (Geelong) - Round 2 - 16 kicks, 2.2
Colin Robertson (Hawthorn) - Round 3 - 5 kicks, 2.0
Rod Lewis (Fitzroy) - Round 3 - 6 kicks, 1.0
Greg Smith (South Melbourne) - Round 5 - 6 kicks, 1.1
Mick Gilmore (Fitzroy) - Round 5 - 4 kicks, 1.1
David Rhys-Jones (South Melbourne) - Round 6 - 13 kicks, 2.1
Sean Godsell (St. Kilda) - Round 8 - 5 kicks, 1.1
Con Gorozidis (St. Kilda) - Round 8 - 5 kicks, 1.0
Matt Byrachevski (Footscray) - Round 9 - 11 kicks, 1.0
Brian Perrin (Footscray) - Round 12 - 13 kicks, 1.1
David Burke (Essendon) - Round 12 - 11 kicks, 5.1
Barry Besanko (Essendon) - Round 13 - 9 kicks, 2.1
Geoff Greetham (St. Kilda) - Round 14 - 8 kicks, 1.1
Des Herbert (Collingwood) - Round 16 - 11 kicks, 1.0
Brian O'Keefe (Footscray) - Round 16 - 3 kicks, 1.1
Peter Maynard (Melbourne) - Round 17 - 10 kicks, 1.0
Greg Flanegan (Essendon) - Round 19 - 5 kicks, 2.0
Mark Eustice (Essendon) - Round 21 - 6 kicks, 1.2
Stuart Atkin (Collingwood) - Round 22 - 2 kicks 1.0

First kick, first goal, if AFL Tables is correct:
Robert Mace (Hawthorn) - Round 21 - 1 kick, 1.0

I'd say look into Robert Mace. It was his only game in 1980.

 

[the croucher]

Under newspaper heading "Kevin rallies Tigers" by Frank McGuire, it is written: "Matthew Wall got the perfect start to a League football career when he goaled with his first kick today..."

Perfect.

Summary: add Matthew Wall (Richmond) R1, 1980 to list of players who scored a goal with their first kick at VFL/AFL level.

see AFL Record Season Guide 2021 pages 804-805

 

[the croucher]

Possible first kick, first goal players in 1980 (bold = all kicks scored):

<snip>

First kick, first goal, if AFL Tables is correct:
Robert Mace (Hawthorn) - Round 21 - 1 kick, 1.0

I'd say look into Robert Mace. It was his only game in 1980.

Yes, australianfootball.com also has the same stats for him, so I think it is certain he should also be added to the list.
The Age match report doesn't make any comment about him.

 

[Gibbsy]

Nice to know Mace didn’t spray it

 

[Connor7395]

Possible first kick, first goal players in 1981 (bold = all kicks scored):

Peter Bosustow (Carlton) - 16 kicks - 2.3
Lee Murnane (Fitzroy) - 10 kicks - 2.0
Michael Taylor (Collingwood) - 12 kicks - 1.0
Mark Williams (Collingwood) - 17 kicks - 1.1
Steve Reynoldson (Geelong) - 7 kicks - 1.0
Tony Buhagiar (Essendon) - 19 kicks - 3.2
Milan Faletic (St. Kilda) - 16 kicks - 5.5
Steven Knight (Footscray) - 15 kicks - 4.0
Rick Davies (Hawthorn) - 5 kicks - 1.1
Mark Jackson (Melbourne) - 6 kicks - 4.1
Kevin Taylor (South Melbourne) - 10 kicks - 5.3
Kym Hodgeman (North Melbourne) - 6 kicks - 1.1
Phil Kelly (North Melbourne) - 11 kicks - 2.1
Peter Spencer (North Melbourne) - 11 kicks - 1.1
Alister Ford (Footscray) - 7 kicks - 3.0
Silvio Foschini (South Melbourne) - 14 kicks - 3.1
Paul Considine (Hawthorn) - 6 kicks - 1.1
Mark Weideman (Collingwood) - 6 kicks - 2.1
Peter Jonas (North Melbourne) - 9 kicks - 2.2
Stephen Allender (South Melbourne) - 11 kicks - 1.1
Leo King (Geelong) - 6 kicks - 3.2
Kevin Sait (Footscray) - 15 kicks - 2.2
Scott Clayton (Fitzroy) - 8 kicks - 1.0
Barry Evans (Collingwood) - 13 kicks - 2.2
Jamie Barham (Melbourne) - 9 kicks - 1.1
Darryl Hewitt (St. Kilda) - 18 kicks - 1.1
Russell Dickson (Melbourne) - 2 kicks - 1.0
Phillip Moir (South Melbourne) - 5 kicks - 2.0
Wes Fellowes (Collingwood) - 4 kicks - 1.0
Brian Peake (Geelong) - 16 kicks - 2.2
Spiro Kourkoumelis (Carlton) - 7 kicks - 1.1
John Holt (North Melbourne) - 12 kicks - 1.1
Rod Waddell (Carlton) - 5 kicks - 1.0
Shane Braddy (Melbourne) - 8 kicks - 1.0
John Tossol (Melbourne) - 11 kicks - 3.0
Since Dave McGlashan is already confirmed to be part of the list, I didn't mention it.

First kick, first goal, if AFL Tables is correct:
Glenn Dugdale (North Melbourne) - 1 kick - 1.0
There's a 50% chance Dugdale's streak continued into his second game, where he had two kicks and scored one goal.

 

[35Daicos]

This is certainly nothing major, but I'm curious as to why there's a discrepancy, and wondering who is correct! The AFL Season Guide lists St Kilda's Allan Murray as having scored a goal with his first ever kick, which came in his second career game, after he was kickless on debut (which was with Port Adelaide).
AustralianFootball.com agrees with this: Australian Football - Allan Murray
View attachment 1107202

AFL Tables credits him with one kick in his debut game:
View attachment 1107203

The Footy Works program has the same thing:
View attachment 1107204

The AFL website of the day credits him with 1 kick as well

Official Website of the Australian Football League

Home now and checked my copy.

No goals.

Just one handball for Allan Murray.

Just to confirm I had my pal with a CD login to check and see what they have down as the final stats for the game and indeed Murray only had 1 handball.

Summary: AFLTables/Footy Works incorrect and needs updating, AF correct.

View attachment 1113872
View attachment 1113873

Here's the response from the AFL's Mark Genge (sent via the Football Record's Michael Lovett):

 

[Gibbsy]

Here's the response from the AFL's Mark Genge (sent via the Football Record's Michael Lovett):
View attachment 1132848

Lol, the AFL "has to assume"... it's a game from bloody 2002! They have the tapes! Go and watch it!

This is why there should be an online Name-A-Game style streaming service.... I'd pay for it.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

This is why there should be an online Name-A-Game style streaming service.... I'd pay for it.

What would you call it?

 

[Connor7395]

Lol, the AFL "has to assume"... it's a game from bloody 2002! They have the tapes! Go and watch it!

This is why there should be an online Name-A-Game style streaming service.... I'd pay for it.

It would be something if old games could be manually rechecked in the stats department. Would also be great for adding stuff that wasn't recorded.

First recorded statistics:
1897: Goals
1965: Kicks, marks, handballs, behinds, free kicks for, free kicks against
1966: Hitouts
1987: Tackles
1998: Rebound 50's, inside 50's, clearances, clangers
1999: Contested possessions, uncontested possessions, contested marks, marks inside 50, one percenters, bounces
2003: Goal assists, time on ground

The problem, I assume, is how definitions of some actions may change over time.

 

[ThePope]

Guys, we're still in a pandemic. All departments have been cut. Improving historical info isn't going to be any more than just archiving, and mainly volunteer work, for a long time.

 

[the croucher]

Newly discovered error it seems. University coach in 1914 was NOT Gerald Brosnan after all. It was Hugh Purse.

The Herald, 1 May 1914, p3 (near top of column on far right)
“..Hughie Purse, Melbourne’s fine half-back, has been engaged as coach of the University team..”

PLAY AND PLAYERS - GOSSIP FROM CLUB CENTRES MEN WHO PLAYED WELD - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 1 May 1914

The first appearance of Condon with North Melbourne was a success, and it is likely that he will be played regularly. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Herald, 15 May 1914, p3 (near top of column on far right)
“..The interest that is being shown in the University team by Hughie Purse, who is coaching them (in a purely honorary capacity) is doing good.”

The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 15 May 1914 - p3

FOOTBALL; PLAY AND PLAYERS; BULLS RUSH IN WHERE UMPIRES FEAR TO TREAD; TOMORROW'S MATCHES; ASSOCIATION; TOURING TEAMS; Advertising; Advertising; QUESTIONS ANSWERED;

trove.nla.gov.au

The Argus, 22 May 1914, p13 (three or four paragraphs from bottom of column 1)
“..With the combined advice of Gerald Brosnan, their secretary, and Hugh Purse, their coach, the students ought to improve..”

The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 22 May 1914 - p13

DIVORCE COURT.; SPORTING CABLES.; FOOTBALL.; MR. BORWICK'S RECITAL.; SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.; ASSAULT ON YOUNG MAN.; Advertising; LIFE OF THE ISLANDS.; LICENSES REDUCTION BOARD.; LETTER-BOX A "PLACE.";

trove.nla.gov.au

The Argus 5 June 1914 p12 (see top of column 5)
“…Mr Hugh Purse, the honorary coach, and Mr Gerald Brosnan, the honorary secretary,…”

The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 5 Jun 1914 - p12

COURSING.; FOOTBALL.; FEDERAL PARLIAMENT.; SHOT WHILE THIEVING.; BILLIARDS.; LADIES' KENNEL CLUB SHOW.; CARE OF CHILDREN.; CYCLING.; Advertising;

trove.nla.gov.au

At moment cannot see any refs to club situation changing later in the year, so assume Purse did all matches.

 

[the croucher]

The coaching career figures for Jack Dyer (Richmond) and Alec Albiston (Hawthorn) need amending.
Round 13 match 1949 between those two clubs did not have the named people as coach of each respective team.

Both JD and AA were in Sydney playing for Victoria vs NSW !!

[?]ONS ON TOP IN [?] AIR, RUCK - By CYRIL NOTT - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 16 Jul 1949

trove.nla.gov.au

Poor Rules umpiring helps NSW, but Victoria scores easy victory - The Sun (Sydney, NSW : 1910 - 1954) - 17 Jul 1949

VICTORIA gave a polished exhibition of short-passing, long kicking and safe marking easily to defeat NSW in the Australian Rules code game at the Sydney Cricket Ground yesterday. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Haven't yet found who were "caretaker coaches."

 

[stemline]

Leo Merrett (Rich) and Neil Pearson (Haw) were the replacement captains...

Richmond Experiments With Followers - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 15 Jul 1949

EXPERIMENTS in placings are being made by Richmond for the game against Hawthorn, especially in the following division. Richmond is looking beyond ...

trove.nla.gov.au

...they may have been coaches as well but that seems to not be mentioned anywhere.

 

[rbartlett]

Leo Merrett (Rich) and Neil Pearson (Haw) were the replacement captains...

Richmond Experiments With Followers - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 15 Jul 1949

EXPERIMENTS in placings are being made by Richmond for the game against Hawthorn, especially in the following division. Richmond is looking beyond ...

trove.nla.gov.au

...they may have been coaches as well but that seems to not be mentioned anywhere.

So, Annual Report and Minute Book has no reference to who replacement coach is.
Merrett *may* have replaced coach, as not only was his vice captain, but he was also on the Selection Committee at the time. So too was Jack Titus, who had been acting coach during playing career and later during Len Smith illness. Nothing confirmed yet

 

[the croucher]

So, Annual Report and Minute Book has no reference to who replacement coach is.
Merrett *may* have replaced coach, as not only was his vice captain, but he was also on the Selection Committee at the time. So too was Jack Titus, who had been acting coach during playing career and later during Len Smith illness. Nothing confirmed yet

...If only The Sun was on Trove, eh !

 

[the croucher]

As far as I'm aware, the following hasn't been raised previously.
I believe I've found another error in club coaching lists - Fitzroy 1920 season has Percy Parratt shown as original coach for season...it should be Jim Toohey:

FOOTBALLERS READY FOR SEASON - PROSPECTS OF CLUBS DISCUSSED - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 1 May 1920

The new football season, which will open this (Saturday) afternoon, has been heralded with special enthusiasm, For a time it appeared likely that an ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Opening of the Season. - NOTES BY ODD BOY. TO-MORROW'S MATCHES. LEAGUE. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 30 Apr 1920

trove.nla.gov.au

24 Apr 1920 - "STARS" WHO WILL SOON RISE TO PUBLIC VIEW - Trove

For weeks League footballers have been preparing for the new season which is to open on May 1. The photographer has "caught" several Fitzroy players in the course of their preparations, (1) Gough puts his boot under the ball. (2) S. Molan prepares for a place kick. (3) G. Rattray brings off a...

trove.nla.gov.au

FOOTBALL. - (Notes by

The second set of games in the W.A. Football League compention will be gone on with next Saturaday, when the draw, with the grounds and umpires, is as ...

trove.nla.gov.au

By 21 May it was known that Toohey was transferring to the VFA and would be coach of Prahran

PLAY AND PLAYERS - NOTES FROM ALL QUARTERS - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 21 May 1920

Interstate matches have grown in popularity, owing chiefly to the keenness shown last year by the South Australians. The first match this year will ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[the croucher]

This is a general post alerting readers to what I believe are errors in listings of official club captains, in the AFL Season Guide principally, but occasionally on club websites (some show correct information already), and certainly on "public-generated" content sites, e.g. Wikipedia. Am working out best way to post evidence about these...suspect I will lodge a separate post for each relevant club, whether there is one correction needed or a handful.

List where the official captain at start of season is incorrect,
or where replacement during season is missing or wrongly identified.

Carlton 1898 - J Aitken original captain, not E Walton
Carlton 1899 - E Walton not sole captain, was replaced by H McShane who was replaced by W Stuckey
Carlton 1902 - W McNamara should be listed as replacement for J Sullivan, not J McShane
Carlton 1922 - E Jamieson original captain, not H Clover

Collingwood 1916 - J McHale should be listed as replacement for D Minogue
Collingwood 1917 - J McHale original captain, not P Wilson
Collingwood 1923 - P Rowe original captain, not H Curtis

Essendon 1919 - A Belcher original captain, not P Ogden

Geelong 1919 - A Eason should be listed as replacement for J Kearney

Hawthorn 1950 - remove P O’Donohue, K Curran sole captain for year
Hawthorn 1951 - K Curran sole captain, not P O’Donohue

Melbourne - 1901 R Wardill original captain, not W McClelland
Melbourne - 1911 H Odgers should be listed as replacement for V Coutie

North Melb - 1927 C Tyson should be listed as replacement for S Barker

Richmond - 1914 C Ricketts original captain, replaced by B Herbert who was replaced by W Thomas

South Melb - 1926 C Pannam original captain, not P Scanlan

St Kilda - 1899 T McNamara original captain, not W Shaw
St Kilda - 1908 D McNamara should be listed as replacement for J Wells
St Kilda - 1935 C Watson original captain, not C Hindson
St Kilda - 1940 A Clarke original captain, not S Lloyd

 

[the croucher]

As per my previous post, the original captain for Essendon in 1919 was Alan Belcher, not Percy Ogden:

VFL Record Rnd 1 p27 http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/119360

The Herald 2 May p3 at end of this article https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243480525

The Australasian 24 May p53 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/140223802

 

[Connor7395]

Possible change in goalkicker. I started a new hobby where I collect goalscoring progression (not behinds) for old games through newspapers. I believe I've found an error.

Round 1, 1924 - Richmond vs. South Melbourne.

Bill Condon is credited with three goals.

AFL Tables - Richmond v South Melbourne - Sat, 26-Apr-1924 2:45 PM - Match Stats

However, all newspapers credit Condon with only two for the game.

The Argus credits Condon with two and Bert Sutton with one. The detailed recap only counts twelve of South's goals and doesn't mention their final goal. Condon had kicked his two goals back-to-back in the third quarter:

FOOTBALL - OPENING OF THE SEASON. KEEN INTEREST AND PLAY. Some Close Finishes. NOTES BY OBSERVER. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 28 Apr 1924

The football season was opened on Saturday and, making every allowance for the optimism which prevails at such a time[?] it promises to be full of activity and ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Age mentions South's final goal and also credits it to Sutton - "The little men were lasting better, and after (Tom) Joyce had twice failed to find the opening, Sutton ran in and put the game out of doubt, leaving South Melbourne the victors by 27 points":

SOUTH MELBOURNE 13.16 V. RICHMOND 10.7. - A Comfortable Win. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 28 Apr 1924

A large gathering attended at Richmond to witness the opening of the season between the local side and South Melbourne. For three parts of the game an even struggle eventuated, but in ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Sporting Globe credits Condon with two goals, but awards the missing goal to "Nicholson", who doesn't appear in South's team list in the same article:

South's Easy Win - Good Recovery Made RICHMOND DIE GAMELY - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 26 Apr 1924

Richmond tried one two new man. Burke (from the country) to the centre half-forward position, [?] Smith, also on the half-forward line. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Record (Emerald Hill) also gives Sutton the goal:

FOOTBALL - Auspicious Opening [?] Weather and Huge Crowds South Start Well Richmond Defeated in Interesting Contest - The Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1957) - 3 May 1924

[?] glorious football weather the 1924 football season was ushered in in an [?]picious manner last Saturday. Great crowds attended all the League ...

trove.nla.gov.au

There's also a second discrepancy from the St. Kilda vs. Melbourne game in the same round. Bill Cubbins is reported as kicking five goals, but The Argus credits Cubbins's third goal (third quarter) to Tim Archer as a kick off the ground. Given the nature of the goal, I could understand the misattribution if it was unexpected. Otherwise, I've only marked it as a footnote.

 

[the croucher]

Possible change in goalkicker. I started a new hobby where I collect goalscoring progression (not behinds) for old games through newspapers. I believe I've found an error.

Round 1, 1924 - Richmond vs. South Melbourne.

Bill Condon is credited with three goals.

AFL Tables - Richmond v South Melbourne - Sat, 26-Apr-1924 2:45 PM - Match Stats

However, all newspapers credit Condon with only two for the game.

<snip>

Yes, the VFL Record the next week on page 30 also agrees with you - Condon 2, Sutton 1
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131127

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Ray “Bunty” Niven played for Fitzroy & Melbourne and is identified as having DOB 6 March 1910 and DOD 26 November 1992 in all sources I can see.

This date of birth seem to be incorrect.

Niven was the younger brother of Colin (also Fitzroy/Melbourne) and this was mentioned in numerous press articles throughout his playing career.
Their parents were Colin Niven (1870-1938) and Ida Bell Lewis (1875-1947) and Vic BDM records show:


Although not included in Harder Than Football, it appears that Ray served in World War II - shows next of kin as his mother Ida
Listed date of birth on war service record is 25 April 1912, but given BDM record above I believe this should be 25 April 1911.

In 1942, Raymond Gordon Niven married Kathleen Mary Condon and they can be seen together in electoral rolls in Brighton (Niven later played there) and Warburton (Niven was coach of Wesburn in that area in the early 1950s)

There is a death of a Raymond Gordon Niven on 26 Nov 1982 according to cremation record at Springvale, and then both Raymond & Kathleen can be found in the same burial plot at Cheltenham Cemetery - see records for Ray and Kathleen. The date of interment for Ray is 17 Feb 1993.

It seems that Ray Niven died in Nov 1992 but subsequently his ashes were interred at Cheltenham 3 months later – unusual , but given there only appears to have ever been one Raymond Gordon Niven in Victoria it seems the most likely explanation.

Summary: Update date of birth for Ray Niven from 6 March 1910 to 25 April 1911

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Further to all things Niven, Supermercado, can you please make amendments to all things Niven and Reeves related?

There's no uncle/nibling connection between this batch of Niven's and John Reeves + John's descendants.

The Reeves (who I believe is Les) and John weren't brothers.


Edit: Thank you.


TLDR: John Reeves isn't a nibling of Colin and co.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Bill Nolan played for Collingwood & Northcote and is identified as having DOB 4 Jan 1927 in all sources I can see.

This date of birth seem to be incorrect.

William Henry Nolan was the son of William Nolan and Flora Jean Smyth and ended up living at Kyneton (he ended his career coaching Kyneton - see wikipedia)
In 1950 he married Margaret Clough and they had two children (per gravesite)

His gravestone (at Kyneton) shows a date of birth of 4 Nov 1926 - it is highly unlikely this is incorrect but we can't get birth records for 1926 yet.
I suspect there was confusion somewhere with 4/1 and 4/11 and year of birth may have been inferred from age....

Summary: Update date of birth for Bill Nolan (Coll) from 4 January 1927 to 4 November 1926