Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[RedmanWasHere]

What website is this screenshot from?

 

[35Daicos]

Wikipedia updated to reflect change

Thanks a lot for that. I do wonder a bit about that DOB, as it just seems a bit "convenient", but it appears a few times on Ancestry, and there's nothing else out there that I can see!

 

[35Daicos]

What website is this screenshot from?

Births Deaths and Marriages Victoria. That shows the details of the "old" Bill Cooke - William Henry Cooke (they were out by a bit with his age when he died). William Henry Hercules Cooke is the "new" player.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Births Deaths and Marriages Victoria. That shows the details of the "old" Bill Cooke - William Henry Cooke (they were out by a bit with his age when he died). William Henry Hercules Cooke is the "new" player.

Thank you.

I've tried looking up the NSW/ACT equivalent and I've never gotten anywhere I wanted to get to.

 

[35Daicos]

Thank you.

I've tried looking up the NSW/ACT equivalent and I've never gotten anywhere I wanted to get to.

I think this works quite okay for me: Births, Deaths and Marriages search

 

[rbartlett]

Regarding : First kick a goal

Vin Crowe rang made and said he remembers debuting for Richmond in 1964 for his only game for them (later played for Hawthorn), and that he came on very late in the game, had one kick and kicked a goal.

I have found newspaper reports saying that Crowe did come on very later and "very quickly" kicked a goal - but yet to find the confirmation that it was his first kick.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

This thread has been awfully quiet lately!

I’m pretty sure that Bill Matthews (early St Kilda player) has been misidentified.

His permit to St Kilda in 1896 was from Northern Tasmania - see ALONG THE WINGS. - PARS ABOUT PLAYERS AND GOSSIPY GLEANINGS. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 1 May 1896

And searching on Trove shows he played for Launceston in 1895 and had played for St Kilda & Ballarat previously.

This article in the Prahran Telegraph shows that the “R. Matthews” who also played a few games in 1896 for St Kilda was his brother. Also mentioned here

So the news articles of the day tell us that W. H. “Billy” Matthews played:

1. 1893: Ballarat - see permit
2. 1894: St Kilda
3. 1895: Launceston
4. 1896-1902 St Kilda

Currently the player is identified as William Henry Matthews born in Ararat 18-May-1876. This family moved from Ararat to Fitzroy around 1890 but there are no children with a name beginning with R – it seems unlikely the Ararat born man is the player.

Reading through the Tasmanian newspapers gave the impression the player was of Tasmanian origin – an impression reinforced by the Prahran telegraph article saying that W. Matthews “brings his brother with him” from Tasmania. This match report from 1896 also refers to him as “the little Tasmanian”.

So far, I haven’t been able to find anyone that really matches the data points but I think it most likely the actual player was from Tasmania, born in the early-mid 1870s and has a brother whose name begins with R. Any suggestions?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Couple of extra bits – this article identifies “W. Matthews, the St Kilda back man” as a benedict, i.e. (recently) married man, in 1903.
The man currently identified as the player did not get married until 1906 so this at least confirms he is wrong!

Trove also shows that a “W. Matthews” served on the St Kilda Football Club committee from 1900 to 1906 – would seem likely this might also be the player.

Searching on Ancestry, the only other person on electoral rolls in this area of Melbourne that seems to make sense is William Henry Mathews (single t in BDM records but often double t in news reports) who was born in Ballarat in 1871 and died in Nov 1943

His father (also named William Henry Mathews) was Inspector of Mines at Ballarat but also worked in Tasmania and South Australia at different points - showing at least some Tasmania connection.

He had a brother Frank Ronalleyn Ogilvy Mathews – known as Rug Mathews who later became a dentist and according to his obituary was “keenly interested in sport”

 

[the croucher]

Couple of extra bits – this article identifies “W. Matthews, the St Kilda back man” as a benedict, i.e. (recently) married man, in 1903.
The man currently identified as the player did not get married until 1906 so this at least confirms he is wrong!

Trove also shows that a “W. Matthews” served on the St Kilda Football Club committee from 1900 to 1906 – would seem likely this might also be the player.

Searching on Ancestry, the only other person on electoral rolls in this area of Melbourne that seems to make sense is William Henry Mathews (single t in BDM records but often double t in news reports) who was born in Ballarat in 1871 and died in Nov 1943

His father (also named William Henry Mathews) was Inspector of Mines at Ballarat but also worked in Tasmania and South Australia at different points - showing at least some Tasmania connection.

He had a brother Frank Ronalleyn Ogilvy Mathews – known as Rug Mathews who later became a dentist and according to his obituary was “keenly interested in sport”

Another article from mid-1899 published in Tasmania confirms that the father certainly moved around the country a lot due to his involvement in the mining industry -

MINING. - Zeehan and Dundas Herald (Tas. : 1890 - 1922) - 29 Jun 1899

Mr W. H. Matthews, at one time managing the Beaconsfield alluvial, and later cri[?]es at Port Darwin, Broken Hill. Charters Towers, and more recently Bay'[?]y's ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[Bandit55]

Couple of extra bits – this article identifies “W. Matthews, the St Kilda back man” as a benedict, i.e. (recently) married man, in 1903.
The man currently identified as the player did not get married until 1906 so this at least confirms he is wrong!

Trove also shows that a “W. Matthews” served on the St Kilda Football Club committee from 1900 to 1906 – would seem likely this might also be the player.

Searching on Ancestry, the only other person on electoral rolls in this area of Melbourne that seems to make sense is William Henry Mathews (single t in BDM records but often double t in news reports) who was born in Ballarat in 1871 and died in Nov 1943

His father (also named William Henry Mathews) was Inspector of Mines at Ballarat but also worked in Tasmania and South Australia at different points - showing at least some Tasmania connection.

He had a brother Frank Ronalleyn Ogilvy Mathews – known as Rug Mathews who later became a dentist and according to his obituary was “keenly interested in sport”

This probably won’t help, it appears that William Henry Mathews was married on 13 November 1895.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Connor7395]

Rewatching the end of a classic match from the 80's, I noticed two high numbers for North Melbourne - There's a 56 and a 58 visible in the first minute.

However, AFL Tables does not record either number in the game:

AFL Tables - Carlton v North Melbourne - Sat, 13-Apr-1985 2:10 PM - Match Stats

A 56 did appear for North Melbourne, debutant Paul Spargo in the 1985 semi final, but no 58 was ever recorded in the seniors. Paul Spargo's number 56 was mentioned in the Round 7 Football Record in the reserves player list, which also includes B. Garland (no senior games) as number 58.

One name is confirmed - 56 is identified as Robertson at 3:56, but what's quirky is that there are two Robertsons on the team - Brothers who debuted in this very match! Rohan is listed as wearing 12, Shane is listed as wearing 33.

In all likelihood, 58 is probably one of the North Melbourne players who debuted during the season, and three fit the bill: Steve Hickey (recorded as number 24), and the Robertsons.

I found another highlights reel of the game and 24 shows up in just 9 seconds, and number 58 also shows up at about 47 seconds as Rhys-Jones centres a pass:


Digging deeper, I found the team lists in The Age on the previous day.

The Age - Google News Archive Search

Shane is named in the back pocket while Rohan is named on the bench. From the footage in both videos, it appeared that number 58 spent a lot of the game down back which convinces me that 58 is Shane. Number 56 was more in the midfield. I also don't really see 56 in the second video until the second half, but by the end of the game, both brothers had 15 disposals each, and to make it even eerier, both were split perfectly into 14 kicks and 1 handball!

It tells me that Rohan came on later in the game into the midfield therefore clocked up disposals at a faster rate to catch up to his brother.

Number 24, I believe is still Steve Hickey. Number 56, based on what I've found, is Rohan. Further digging is appreciated.

 

[35Daicos]

Rewatching the end of a classic match from the 80's, I noticed two high numbers for North Melbourne - There's a 56 and a 58 visible in the first minute.

However, AFL Tables does not record either number in the game:

AFL Tables - Carlton v North Melbourne - Sat, 13-Apr-1985 2:10 PM - Match Stats

A 56 did appear for North Melbourne, debutant Paul Spargo in the 1985 semi final, but no 58 was ever recorded in the seniors. Paul Spargo's number 56 was mentioned in the Round 7 Football Record in the reserves player list, which also includes B. Garland (no senior games) as number 58.

One name is confirmed - 56 is identified as Robertson at 3:56, but what's quirky is that there are two Robertsons on the team - Brothers who debuted in this very match! Rohan is listed as wearing 12, Shane is listed as wearing 33.

In all likelihood, 58 is probably one of the North Melbourne players who debuted during the season, and three fit the bill: Steve Hickey (recorded as number 24), and the Robertsons.

I found another highlights reel of the game and 24 shows up in just 9 seconds, and number 58 also shows up at about 47 seconds as Rhys-Jones centres a pass:


Digging deeper, I found the team lists in The Age on the previous day.

The Age - Google News Archive Search

Shane is named in the back pocket while Rohan is named on the bench. From the footage in both videos, it appeared that number 58 spent a lot of the game down back which convinces me that 58 is Shane. Number 56 was more in the midfield. I also don't really see 56 in the second video until the second half, but by the end of the game, both brothers had 15 disposals each, and to make it even eerier, both were split perfectly into 14 kicks and 1 handball!

It tells me that Rohan came on later in the game into the midfield therefore clocked up disposals at a faster rate to catch up to his brother.

Number 24, I believe is still Steve Hickey. Number 56, based on what I've found, is Rohan. Further digging is appreciated.

I don't think there's any doubt that it's Rohan and Shane Robertson in the "wrong" numbers.

‘Vale Rohan Robertson…’ by KB Hill

www.footyalmanac.com.au

Australian Football - Rohan Robertson - Player Bio

australianfootball.com

Australian Football - Shane Robertson - Player Bio

australianfootball.com

Purely based on the hair/hairstyles, I think 56 is likely to be Rohan Robertson, with Shane Robertson no. 58 (which is what you've suggested):




Here they mention Hickey as a 'new' player (about 2.45 in), and I think they say he's in no. 24. Annoyingly, they don't mention the Robertson brothers.

This poster, on the North board, seems to suggest #56 is Rohan (watch 5.45 in): Rest In Peace Rohan Robertson, 80s Shinboner

 

[the croucher]

Couple of extra bits – this article identifies “W. Matthews, the St Kilda back man” as a benedict, i.e. (recently) married man, in 1903.
The man currently identified as the player did not get married until 1906 so this at least confirms he is wrong!

Trove also shows that a “W. Matthews” served on the St Kilda Football Club committee from 1900 to 1906 – would seem likely this might also be the player.

Searching on Ancestry, the only other person on electoral rolls in this area of Melbourne that seems to make sense is William Henry Mathews (single t in BDM records but often double t in news reports) who was born in Ballarat in 1871 and died in Nov 1943

His father (also named William Henry Mathews) was Inspector of Mines at Ballarat but also worked in Tasmania and South Australia at different points - showing at least some Tasmania connection.

He had a brother Frank Ronalleyn Ogilvy Mathews – known as Rug Mathews who later became a dentist and according to his obituary was “keenly interested in sport”

Looking back on this one after a few weeks break, found an early season ref in 1895 noting that Mathews playing with Launceston was "late of Victoria." Combining that with other evidence noted in the other posts (including the May 1896 ref to Mathews saying he'd be returning to St Kilda), convinces me even more that the DOB 1871 DOD 1943 W H Mathews is the player we are after.

If others would like to cross-check and confirm, I think we should promote this as an update needing to be made.

The reason his name didn't come up in initial search for family members is because the other children were recorded as having mother's maiden name as Garrigues. Billy Mathews record as attached has mother's name as Garriques.

 

[the croucher]

AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com both have an 1897 Fitzroy player named Bert Rapiport in their records, but I cannot find any reference to him being known by that name.

I think the records should be updated with his name being shown as Henry Rapiport/Rappiport (working out whether to have surname with one P or two is another matter entirely).

This 1931 reminiscence has him as Henry

NOTES AND COMMENTS. - The Australasian (Melbourne, Vic. : 1864 - 1946) - 22 Aug 1931

There was a large and enthusiastic gathering of present day and old players at the Fitzroy cricket pavilion on August 12. The occasion was the hououring of Mr. D. J. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

and this 1914 report also shows the football player being known as Henry.

FITZROY CRICKET CLUB.—ANNUAL REPORT, 1914. - Fitzroy City Press (Vic. : 1881 - 1920) - 19 Sep 1914

Ladies and Gentlemen,—Your Committee have pleasure in presenting a report of the working of the Club for the past year. They are not in a position to congratulate members on any distinct advance in the sporting arena, the first eleven having a very pleasant season socially, ...

trove.nla.gov.au

and in his playing days he is usually listed under the initial H, not B.

Trove

Australia’s free online research portal. Trove is a collaboration between the National Library of Australia and hundreds of Partner organisations around Australia.

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[35Daicos]

AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com both have an 1897 Fitzroy player named Bert Rapiport in their records, but I cannot find any reference to him being known by that name.

I think the records should be updated with his name being shown as Henry Rapiport/Rappiport (working out whether to have surname with one P or two is another matter entirely).

This 1931 reminiscence has him as Henry

NOTES AND COMMENTS. - The Australasian (Melbourne, Vic. : 1864 - 1946) - 22 Aug 1931

There was a large and enthusiastic gathering of present day and old players at the Fitzroy cricket pavilion on August 12. The occasion was the hououring of Mr. D. J. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

and this 1914 report also shows the football player being known as Henry.

FITZROY CRICKET CLUB.—ANNUAL REPORT, 1914. - Fitzroy City Press (Vic. : 1881 - 1920) - 19 Sep 1914

Ladies and Gentlemen,—Your Committee have pleasure in presenting a report of the working of the Club for the past year. They are not in a position to congratulate members on any distinct advance in the sporting arena, the first eleven having a very pleasant season socially, ...

trove.nla.gov.au

and in his playing days he is usually listed under the initial H, not B.

Trove

Australia’s free online research portal. Trove is a collaboration between the National Library of Australia and hundreds of Partner organisations around Australia.

trove.nla.gov.au

This is in Pennings Vol. 4:

He's named as Herb Rapiport quite a few times in that book. He went to SA in 1893:

He stayed there until mid-1896:


This is interesting (the link is on his Wiki page): Jewish League footballers discovered

Pennings Vol. 3 has:

It calls him Herb a couple of times.

Pennings Vol. 2:

They have him as "Rappi" Rapiport several times.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Paul Daley's article in The Guardian today suggests that the current birth details for Bill Bourke (Richmond) are incorrect.
Certainly the 1932 death of the boot manufacturer matches the 1884 Collingwood birth in Vic BDM - and given Paul's connection via his mother as explained in the article it seems like he is likely to be the player.

rbartlett - this is probably of interest to you!

 

[GreyCrow]

Paul Daley's article in The Guardian today suggests that the current birth details for Bill Bourke (Richmond) are incorrect.
Certainly the 1932 death of the boot manufacturer matches the 1884 Collingwood birth in Vic BDM - and given Paul's connection via his mother as explained in the article it seems like he is likely to be the player.

rbartlett - this is probably of interest to you!

I cant see the corresponding birth in BDM

I cant even match the names in William Joseph Bourke obituary

Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 14 Nov 1932

The only Duncan-Bourke marriage is a Mary Magdalene Bourke marries Alex Duncan in 1927 and is born 1908 with Kelly as mother

(happy to recognise my sight isnt the best today)

 

[35Daicos]

Paul Daley's article in The Guardian today suggests that the current birth details for Bill Bourke (Richmond) are incorrect.
Certainly the 1932 death of the boot manufacturer matches the 1884 Collingwood birth in Vic BDM - and given Paul's connection via his mother as explained in the article it seems like he is likely to be the player.

rbartlett - this is probably of interest to you!

I see AustralianFootball.com also has a different DOD to the 1932 one:

So something has been mixed up somewhere along the line!

One tree on Ancestry (tree maker is a Bourke) has 23 July 1884 for the DOB, while nearly all of the others have 12 April 1885.

 

[35Daicos]

I cant see the corresponding birth in BDM

I cant even match the names in William Joseph Bourke obituary

Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 14 Nov 1932

The only Duncan-Bourke marriage is a Mary Magdalene Bourke marries Alex Duncan in 1927 and is born 1908 with Kelly as mother

(happy to recognise my sight isnt the best today)

I haven't been able to find his birth reg. in BDM either! This should be the player's marriage:

 

[GreyCrow]

I haven't been able to find his birth reg. in BDM either! This should be the player's marriage:
View attachment 1816956

The Meskill matches William Meskill eldest son in the obit of 1932

 

[GreyCrow]

This suggests Bill was a ''follower of Preston''

THE PLAY AND THE PLAYERS. - WHAT THE CLUBS ARE DOING. THE WEEK'S FINISHING TOUCHES. READY FOR TO-MORROW'S FRAY. A BUDGET OF PERSONALITIES. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 30 Apr 1909

''Champion goal kicker of the Boosey-Burramine''

THE SPORTING WORLD. - CHAT[?] - Numurkah Leader (Vic. : 1895 - 1948) - 21 Jul 1905

Recognising Bourke is a common name - just noting the Bourke at FF for Richmond

 

[35Daicos]

This may be the person some of the game's records have in mind:

He was born c. 1882. But he was born in Richmond, not Ireland:



That was the interment date, apparently, so this should be the chap AF.com has dying 8 Aug. 1927.

The whole thing is a bit of a mess! The footballer obviously did die in 1932.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I haven't been able to find his birth reg. in BDM either! This should be the player's marriage:
View attachment 1816956

That is correct marriage... apologies for the misleading steer about 1884 birth record above - I saw a birth record attached to an Ancestry tree and assumed it was for Bill but it was for one of his children. Should have checked!

I've done a bit more digging in to Bill Bourke's family:
Parents: Matthew Bourke (c1830-25 Oct 1911) Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 26 Oct 1911 & Margaret Crough (c1847-30 Jan 1903) see Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 31 Jan 1903

Matthew and Margaret were both born in Ireland and emigrated in the early 1860s

They were married in Victoria in 1869 (Vic BDM 1869/02910)

They had seven children that made it to adulthood and are listed in parent’s death notices:

• John (c1870-10 Oct 1933) Family Notices - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 14 Oct 1933
• James Joseph (c1872-12 Nov 1916) Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 13 Nov 1916
• Mary Francis (c1873-11 Nov 1936) – death record in the name of Margaret Francis Duncan Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 12 Nov 1936
• Matthew (c1875-4 Oct 1949) Family Notices - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 5 Oct 1949 (names Mary/Margaret as Xavier?)
• Thomas William (c1877-later than 1949)
• Edward Patrick (c1882-17 Nov 1921) Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 18 Nov 1921
• William Joseph (c1884-13 Nov 1932) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4508570

Vic BDM death records give places of birth as

• John blank
• James Joseph blank
• Mary Francis ABBOTSFORD
• Matthew COLLINGWOOD
• Thomas William
• Edward Patrick MELBOURNE
• William Joseph blank

None of these births seem to have been registered with Vic BDM (unless Vic BDM 1873/23240 is Mary?) Looks very much like Matthew & Margaret were living in Abbotsford/Collingwood and just didn’t register the births of their children. This will make it hard to confirm a true date but trees on Ancestry have two different dates 23 Jul 1884 and 12 Apr 1885 - perhaps from a family bible or some such record?

 

[Bandit55]

The Meskill matches William Meskill eldest son in the obit of 1932

William Meskill Bourke became a Federal politician:

Biography - William Meskill (Bill) Bourke - Australian Dictionary of Biography

adb.anu.edu.au

 

[GreyCrow]

That is correct marriage... apologies for the misleading steer about 1884 birth record above - I saw a birth record attached to an Ancestry tree and assumed it was for Bill but it was for one of his children. Should have checked!

I've done a bit more digging in to Bill Bourke's family:
Parents: Matthew Bourke (c1830-25 Oct 1911) Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 26 Oct 1911 & Margaret Crough (c1847-30 Jan 1903) see Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 31 Jan 1903

Matthew and Margaret were both born in Ireland and emigrated in the early 1860s

They were married in Victoria in 1869 (Vic BDM 1869/02910)

They had seven children that made it to adulthood and are listed in parent’s death notices:

• John (c1870-10 Oct 1933) Family Notices - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 14 Oct 1933
• James Joseph (c1872-12 Nov 1916) Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 13 Nov 1916
• Mary Francis (c1873-11 Nov 1936) – death record in the name of Margaret Francis Duncan Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 12 Nov 1936
• Matthew (c1875-4 Oct 1949) Family Notices - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 5 Oct 1949 (names Mary/Margaret as Xavier?)
• Thomas William (c1877-later than 1949)
• Edward Patrick (c1882-17 Nov 1921) Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 18 Nov 1921
• William Joseph (c1884-13 Nov 1932) Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 14 Nov 1932

Vic BDM death records give places of birth as

• John blank
• James Joseph blank
• Mary Francis ABBOTSFORD
• Matthew COLLINGWOOD
• Thomas William
• Edward Patrick MELBOURNE
• William Joseph blank

None of these births seem to have been registered with Vic BDM (unless Vic BDM 1873/23240 is Mary?) Looks very much like Matthew & Margaret were living in Abbotsford/Collingwood and just didn’t register the births of their children. This will make it hard to confirm a true date but trees on Ancestry have two different dates 23 Jul 1884 and 12 Apr 1885 - perhaps from a family bible or some such record?

As the grandson of an Irish woman of the 1890s I can confirm lack of Irish birth registration wasn't confined to Victoria