Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

[Zidane98]

I agree they should find a diplomatic solution yes. They should also actually honour it this time - all sides.

Good to see you actually having a go at the rebels / Russians for not being willing to negotiate peace and not appearing at peace talks in Minsk.

 

[The_Reaper]

The US and the rest of the world has been very restrained so far by not intervening in this war. It is best if it remains that way but it will only remain that way if Russia ceases all military operations in Ukraine and respects Ukraine ' s sovereign territory as it agreed to do so when Ukraine disarmed itself after the Budapest agreement.

I think we can all agree that the occupying rebel forces have done nothing for the people of East ukraine. That much is abundantly clear and it is about time they stopped their war and come to the negotiating table.

The US won't interfere in the war because Ukraine isn't worth it

 

[Northalives]

The US won't interfere in the war because Ukraine isn't worth it

Russia is not some tin pot country and if the US and the Euro's tried to "interfere", as you put it, the consequences would be horrific and thats' why Uncle Sam and Angela wouldn't entertain it. If they did: just transpose Barak and Angela for brain dead and the wicked witch.

 

[awaremind]

The worrying thing is Obama isn't going to be President for that much longer, I'm not quite sure how a GOP president or even Hillary would play this, Obama's hand wringing may be less confrontational in the short term but it is allowing the situation on the ground to get worse. However a rapid escalation would obviously be very very risky, with world class missiles and aircraft the devastation could be world wide with Ukraine as ground zero, why anyone would want escalation is beyond me.

 

[Zidane98]

Nobody wants escalation. The easiest way for that to happen is Russia to stop unofficially sending troops and stop arming the rebels. Without support from Russia the war will be over in a matter of weeks and talks can resume at the negotiating table. Russia can't complain if NATO decides to arm Ukraine because they've been arming rebels for almost a year now.

The rebels have gone nuts in a murderous rage over the last couple of weeks. They need to put their arms down and discuss a peaceful solution which will involve limited autonomy for the region while still respecting Ukraine ' s sovereign territory.

 

[The_Reaper]

Nobody wants escalation. The easiest way for that to happen is Russia to stop unofficially sending troops and stop arming the rebels. Without support from Russia the war will be over in a matter of weeks and talks can resume at the negotiating table. Russia can't complain if NATO decides to arm Ukraine because they've been arming rebels for almost a year now.

The rebels have gone nuts in a murderous rage over the last couple of weeks. They need to put their arms down and discuss a peaceful solution which will involve limited autonomy for the region while still respecting Ukraine ' s sovereign territory.

Even Ukraine now admits the majority of rebels are native Ukrainians.

 

[awaremind]

I think its going to take full autonomy for the entire luhansk and Donetsk oblasts and a demilitarised zone from where the lines are now to the state boundaries. Russia pays for repairing those areas also. Kiev won't be able to.

 

[awaremind]

Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung (FAZ) “Germany’s special services estimate the probable number of deceased Ukrainian servicemen and civilians at up to 50,000 people. This figure is about 10 times higher than official data. Official figures are clearly too low and not credible,”

 

[Zidane98]

I think its going to take full autonomy for the entire luhansk and Donetsk oblasts and a demilitarised zone from where the lines are now to the state boundaries. Russia pays for repairing those areas also. Kiev won't be able to.

Full autonomy will never happen. Limited autonomy will with an international task force helping rebuild the area.

Fortification of the Ukraine / Russia border to protect Ukraine from Russia also a possibility.

 

[Zidane98]

To those who think the US shouldn't get involved in defending Ukraine:

Read the Budapest Agreement. Ukraine agreed to disarm itself and the US agreed to defend them should they cone under attack.

 

[Zidane98]

Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung (FAZ) “Germany’s special services estimate the probable number of deceased Ukrainian servicemen and civilians at up to 50,000 people. This figure is about 10 times higher than official data. Official figures are clearly too low and not credible,”

How have they come to this conclusion? Can't find any explanation for how they came up with these numbers. OCSE & UN numbers much more credible.

 

[awaremind]

The stasi have clearly taken control!

 

[Zidane98]

The stasi have clearly taken control!

????

 

[awaremind]

Its like the east german kgb.

 

[Northalives]

Nobody wants escalation. The easiest way for that to happen is Russia to stop unofficially sending troops and stop arming the rebels. Without support from Russia the war will be over in a matter of weeks and talks can resume at the negotiating table. Russia can't complain if NATO decides to arm Ukraine because they've been arming rebels for almost a year now.

The rebels have gone nuts in a murderous rage over the last couple of weeks. They need to put their arms down and discuss a peaceful solution which will involve limited autonomy for the region while still respecting Ukraine ' s sovereign territory.

How about the west do what they say they stand for and put the current anti-simetic, racist, bigoted "government" of the fascist oligarchs on notice that unless, they and their henchmen dissolve "government" and have a proper election open to ALL Ukrainian citizens in ALL areas of the country to be conducted and supervised by the international community, then the west will just turn their backs on them and allow them to be engulfed by the Russian Bear. Not some "don't like this election result, let's have another one but this time you and you and you can vote and you and you and you can't vote and if you attempt to do so, we will lock you up or shoot you" type of election, a proper election.

We fought a f*****g war against them c**t's where millions upon millions died and now, because it suits some neo-con in some air-conditioned office somewhere to have these racist pigs as our mates, we not only turn a blind eye, we legitimise and give succour to a pro-Nazi, openly anti-Semitic party who control power in a European capital the first time since 1945!

Don't get me wrong, my statement above is not and is not meant to be a declaration of solidarity with Russia or anyone else for that matter. I am just stating a historical and present truth and it's just snobbery to think that the racist fascism of the 1930-40's is somehow different than the racist fascism of the 21st century.

 

[awaremind]

Nice work Kiev this is how you avoid civilian casualties!

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I think far too many Novorossiyans have been killed now for that nation to ever re-unify with what's left of Ukraine. There's is just TOO MUCH bad blood there.

 

[Northalives]

I think far too many Novorossiyans have been killed now for that nation to ever re-unify with what's left of Ukraine. There's is just TOO MUCH bad blood there.

You know what you've said is probably true. Very, very sad.

 

[Long Live HFC]

How about the west do what they say they stand for and put the current anti-simetic, racist, bigoted "government" of the fascist oligarchs on notice that unless, they and their henchmen dissolve "government" and have a proper election open to ALL Ukrainian citizens in ALL areas of the country to be conducted and supervised by the international community

lol, were you paying any attention at the time?

- the government/parliament remained virtually unchanged after the maidan uprising.
- there was a proper election open to ALL Ukrainian citizens, in ALL areas of the country. the separatists just happened to boycott it and intimidate and threaten those in the regions they controlled. if there are any concerns about the legitimacy of the election, that's the separatist's fault.

 

[awaremind]

lol, were you paying any attention at the time?

- the government/parliament remained virtually unchanged after the maidan uprising.
.

completely untrue, I posted previously showing the massive powershift expressed in the Rada in a previous post. Can repost if I must but this has been busted already.

 

[Long Live HFC]

completely untrue, I posted previously showing the massive powershift expressed in the Rada in a previous post. Can repost if I must but this has been busted already.

feel free to quote it again for me.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/25/world/europe/ukraine-parliament.html?_r=0

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

lol, were you paying any attention at the time?

- the government/parliament remained virtually unchanged after the maidan uprising.
- there was a proper election open to ALL Ukrainian citizens, in ALL areas of the country. the separatists just happened to boycott it and intimidate and threaten those in the regions they controlled. if there are any concerns about the legitimacy of the election, that's the separatist's fault.

I think you missed the 'lustration' drive that happened after Euromaidan that began purging the Rada and other departments of supporters of the 'old regime'.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...and-is-it-a-good-idea-for-ukraine-to-adopt-it

The idea of lustration is gaining momentum in Ukraine. A recent survey shows that nearly 80 percent of respondents support the policy. Lustration (from the Latin verb lustrare, to ceremonially purify) refers to a policy that seeks to cleanse a new regime from the remnants of the past. The process involves screening new officials (elected or appointed) for involvement in the former regime and sets some consequences if they are found to have been involved. These consequences can range from publicizing information about collaboration in the previous regime, through dismissal and banning from holding certain offices.

Lustration started gathering attention during the Euromaidan protests, initially in the context of discussions on how to root out political corruption, which has permeated Ukrainian governments. Investigative journalist and Euromaidan Council member Egor Sobolev became one of the most vocal proponents of the idea, and just a couple of days after Yanukovych’s ouster, was appointed to head a Lustration Committee, attached to the Cabinet of Ministers.

As a first step toward lustration, Ukraine’s parliament has taken preliminary steps to prepare a bill on judicial lustration. If the bill becomes law, all court chairs appointed by Yanukovych will be fired from their administrative positions. All judges will be screened for corruption and participation in politicized justice during Euromaidan, and those who do not pass the review will be fired and possibly criminally prosecuted for corruption. In addition, the Lustration Committee and the Ministry of Justice are currently working on a broader law on lustration. Sobolev has said in interviews that the goal of the lustration law will be to ban Yanukovych and his closest allies from politics for life, as well as to screen and remove those who are “agents of foreign secret service, people who have been involved in corruption, and people who have been involved in the destruction of democracy.”

The radical nationalist party, Svoboda, has already submitted its version of a general law on lustration for consideration in parliament. In addition to the parameters discussed by Egor Sobolev, the Svoboda bill envisions lustrating all former KGB informants. The Svoboda bill stipulates that public servants at all levels, as well as applicants for state jobs will have to undergo a screening procedure. Those who fail the screening will be dismissed from their positions...

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/228988.html

The Ukrainian government will dismiss 39 high-ranking officials as part of the country's new lustration law, Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk has said.

"In accordance with the basic norm of the lustration law, the government of Ukraine will dismiss a total of 39 high-ranking officials. Of them, 19 have voluntarily handed in a letter of resignation, and the other 20 will be dismissed under the norm of Ukraine's lustration law," he said at a government session on Thursday.
Besides, the government requested the president dismiss the head of Kirovohrad Regional State Administration based on the lustration law.

Ten heads of national commissions will be also dismissed, Yatseniuk said...

On the surface, fighting corruption is a good and noble idea. But what if the forces driving lustration are themselves corrupt?

 

[Long Live HFC]

sorry, isn't all this subsequent to elections? that's an entirely different discussion; i'm really only concerned about the maidan revolution and how/who it overthrew (for the purpose of this discussion I mean and the claims that supposed western-backed fascists overthrew and replaced the government).

 

[johnnypanther]

I think you missed the 'lustration' drive that happened after Euromaidan that began purging the Rada and other departments of supporters of the 'old regime'.





On the surface, fighting corruption is a good and noble idea. But what if the forces driving lustration are themselves corrupt?

Sounds like a McCarthyist approach ....

 

[awaremind]

lol, were you paying any attention at the time?

- the government/parliament remained virtually unchanged after the maidan uprising.
- there was a proper election open to ALL Ukrainian citizens, in ALL areas of the country. the separatists just happened to boycott it and intimidate and threaten those in the regions they controlled. if there are any concerns about the legitimacy of the election, that's the separatist's fault.

You keep repeating this - its a lie.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexander-turchynov
I'm guessing this cabinet looked nothing at all like the previous one- note the Svoboda party members. Not that We'll Get those Bastards Yatsenyuk is any better.

And the New Rada looks nothing like the old one.

http://links.org.au/node/4144

The electoral machines[1] of Poroshenko and Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk topped the Rada election with similar results—3.4 million and 3.5 million votes, respectively (each 22 per cent).[2] The “Petro Poroshenko Bloc” won 132 seats in the Rada, while Yatsenyuk’s “Peoples Front” won 82. That’s short of a majority in the 450-seat Rada, but not to worry -- a large majority of the newly elected deputies share the program of the two leading blocs.

Yatsenyuk’s electoral machine includes Rada speaker Oleksandr Turchynov and interior (police) minister Arsen Avakov. They represent a more openly pro-Western wing of the ruling class.

The third-place finisher was another, new electoral bloc, Samopomich (Self Reliance). It won 1.7 million votes (11 per cent) and 34 seats. It is headed by the strongly pro-Europe mayor of the city of Lviv in the west of Ukraine, Andrii Sadovyi. Sadovyi’s Lviv is a stronghold of the extreme right.

Another Samopomich leader newly elected to the Rada is Semen Semenchevo. He is a commander of the Donbas Battalion, one of the dozen or so rightist and fascist paramilitary battalions that have sprung up this year to fight alongside the conscript Ukraine army in the east of the country.

The right-wing Radical Party of Oleg Lyashko, also a paramilitary commander, gained 1.7 million votes and 22 seats. Lyashko was condemned by Amnesty International in a report several months ago for kidnapping and brutalising leading supporters of political autonomy in eastern Ukraine (so-called “separatists”). His campaign posters featured him impaling a caricatured Jewish oligarch on a Ukrainian trident.

The Fatherland Party of former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko suffered a large setback, receiving only 6 per cent of the vote. She came a distant second in the presidential election last May with a campaign calling for total war against the “separatists”.[3] In March she was caught on a telephone recording musing about using nuclear weapons against the rebel east.

Gone from the Rada is the only party that was speaking out against the war in the east, the Communist Party. It failed to reach the 5 per cent threshold to win party seats.[4]

The “Opposition Bloc” won close to 1.5 million votes and 34 seats in the east and south of Ukraine. It is a coalition of small parties, including a rump of the shattered, former governing Party of Regions. The electoral alliance advocated dialogue to quell the war in the east. It is the only party in the new Rada supporting a continuation of Ukraine’s constitutional clause prohibiting the country from joining any military alliance, including NATO.

There were 29 parties or blocs running in the election. The media project VoxUkraine summarised the choices before the electorate in an analysis published on October 20, saying, “Despite the fact that [the nine largest parties] are political rivals, their programs are very similar. The main common feature of the party programs is the absence of ideology. Hence, they try to appeal to as many people as possible instead of promoting programmatic principles.

Last edited: Nov 20, 2014