Conspiracy Theory Mandates, Lockdowns, Covid-19, SARS-Cov-2 Thread - Get vaccinated.

[mouncey2franklin]

I'm not socialist. I'm a liberal. Of your John Stuart Mill, Adam Smith variety.

JSM wrote:

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others"

So you're going to argue that not getting the vaccine is causing harm to others?

Don't try to play your silly word games, just answer the question.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

...vaccinated with a safe and effective vaccine.

This is why the 'safe and effective' line is repeated so often in the news programming.

It works.

Most people are simple enough to begin repeating it like a religious mantra.

'Four legs good, two legs bad.'

 

[Ghost Patrol]

No, it's actually a supply from China issue that makes a vulnerability on emissions controls into a massive problem.

Sounds like an LNP issue. Is it related to Morrison's trade war, or Dutton's warmongering rhetoric?

Chyna!

 

[Roby]

Look mate if you are vaccinated
You shouldn't need to worry if Bob down the road is vaccinated or not.

It's not selfish to have bodily autonomy and make you're own medical decisions.
It's actually selfish to bully people to take a jab just because you did it.

It's not a greater good scenario.
Most people took the jab as they were bullied by the government.
Even with 100% vax rate covid would still be spreading so what are we even talking about.

I'm confused with your stance now. Do we take the vaccine or not?

It seems to me you're saying that vaccine

- causes heart problems
- doesn't work even at 100% vaccination

Why is anyone taking it?

 

[Malifice]

JSM wrote:

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others"

So you're going to argue that not getting the vaccine is causing harm to others?

Yes. Clearly that's what I'm arguing, and clearly that's why the mandates exist.

 

[Evolved1]

You dont give a fu** you're been being fed misinformation, and have been assuming it's true?

Well at least now you know.

I would have thought most of the information tabled on a conspiracy board would count as misinformation, and that there could be a little more leeway here than on the SRP.

How is BF differentiating this forum from the SRP?

 

[mouncey2franklin]

Yes. Clearly that's what I'm arguing, and clearly that's why the mandates exist.

And do you accept that some people are harmed by the vaccines?

 

[Malifice]

And do you accept that some people are harmed by the vaccines?

Yes. In rare cases.

It's my position that misinformation and the vaxx hesitancy causes far more harm to far more people.

By several thousand orders of magnitude.

 

[Malifice]

I would have thought most of the information tabled on a conspiracy board would count as misinformation, and that there could be a little more leeway here than on the SRP.

How is BF differentiating this forum from the SRP?

Chief explained it above mate, it was his call.

Spruiking shit about 'the lizard people being behind the faked moon landing, is one thing. It's batshit crazy, but it doesn't hurt anyone.

Spreading vaccine misinformation (and anti-Semitic conspiracies) during a global pandemic that has killed millions is another thing altogether.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

Yes. In rare cases.

So you accept that the vaccines can harm otherwise healthy people.

And yet you think it is the JSM / liberal position to mandate people take them against their will.

Yes? This is your position?

It's my position that misinformation and the vaxx hesitancy causes far more harm to far more people.

By several thousand orders of magnitude.

What is your evidence for this claim?

 

[Malifice]

So you accept that the vaccines can harm otherwise healthy people.

And yet you think it is the JSM / liberal position to mandate people take them against their will.

Yes? This is your position?

Yes, that is my position (mostly).

The State cant just sit there, while people harm others with deliberate misinformation. It's got a job to do.

What is your evidence for this claim?

Vaccines have killed 9 people in Australia from 40 million doses given. Roughly 1 per 5 million.

Assume 100,000 people are vaccinated thanks to the mandates who would have otherwise not have been due to gobbling up misinformation.

Of them, odds are none will die from the vaccine (1/50 chance it happens).

Now assume all catch COVID, as we all will. Also assume an insanely conservative CFR of 0.05 (so only 500 would die from COVID), and a (repeatedly demonstrated, and agreed to by consensus) vaccine efficacy of 90 percent against death. Maths tells me this is 450 lives saved due to the vaccine mandate (90 percent of 500).

Vaccines kill 2 percent of a person. Mandates saved 450 people, even assuming a low CFR of 0.05.

Making misinformation many many orders of magnitude more dangerous than vaccines.

Do you have a problem with any of the figures used above, and if so, why?

 

[Malifice]

Note the above numbers, only look at deaths.

They don't count the prevention of harm to people such as the thousands of people protected from having to go to ICU from those 100,000, the effects of the hospital system being overwhelmed by hospitalizations occurring that did not otherwise need to happen (and other people getting substandard care) and so forth.

By any order of magnitude or science you want to apply (even to an individual) taking the vaccine is better than not taking it. Its safe and efficacious and it protects you from death. Your odds of copping a vaccine adverse reaction that kills you are infinitesimal compared to your odds of getting COVID and dying.

For every 1 person the mandate convinces to take the vaccine instead of 'get COVID and roll the dice' the mandates pull further ahead in harm prevention.

 

[TheKanga]

I'm confused with your stance now. Do we take the vaccine or not?

It seems to me you're saying that vaccine

- causes heart problems
- doesn't work even at 100% vaccination

Why is anyone taking it?

Take it if you want. (medical autonomy)
Don't try to bully others into taking it.
Respect others personal choices.

 

[Malifice]

I also don't fully support the mandates in their current form (never have to be honest). Measures are needed, but the current ones seem pretty heavy handed in a lot of places.

I would have much preferred an alternative like tweaking of the tax system (and Centrelink) whereby:

Vaccinated by 1 December: Get a 2 percent tax break in FY 21/22 (or a one off Centrelink $1000 dollar payment).

Not Vaccinated by 1 December: Get slugged with a 3 percent tax hike via a one off Medicare levy in FY 21/22; have your benefits reduced by 10 percent for the rest of the F/Y.

Coupled with social restrictions on visiting certain aged care homes, and public areas if unvaccinated.

Carrot and stick approach. Just off the top of my head, without any modelling to back up the effectiveness etc.

I think taking away someone's livelihood is probably a step too far, particularly when you consider those that believe in the anti-vaxx stuff are far more likely to be batshit crazy (and thus having a hard time holding down a job as it is) so the mentally unwell will already be getting stung hard here (and most laws disproportionally affect them as is).

From where I sit these mandates are seeking to protect the mentally unwell and vulnerable from misinformation, and I'm not sure stripping them of their jobs is the best way to protect them.

 

[Mick F]

Do you guys have any sympathy for cases like this ?
If it's all about health where is the sympathy.
Companies don't give a fu** about you

Why are you posting such errant nonsense??? There is zero evidence this person even exists, let alone is in intensive care.

Is this the same Virginia Nicholls that took to Twitter to perpetuate the erroneous claim that the death of 17-year-old Tom Van Dijk was due to to the Pfizer vaccine?

[Mr Van Dijk died suddenly after suffering a cardiac arrest whilst swimming with his family. He had not in fact been vaccinated. Ms Nicholls deleted the tweet and apologised for her false claim and the severe distress it had caused the family and school.]

Maybe you should spend more time on endeavours that serve a worthwhile purpose, and lead to you becoming a better son and work colleague. For a start cut the incessant lies and bullshit.

 

[Roby]

Take it if you want. (medical autonomy)
Don't try to bully others into taking it.
Respect others personal choices.

Take it if you want. Medical autonomy. What a world you live in. Any science?

 

[Roby]

Why are you posting such errant nonsense??? There is zero evidence this person even exists, let alone is in intensive care.

Is this the same Virginia Nicholls that took to Twitter to perpetuate the erroneous claim that the death of 17-year-old Tom Van Dijk was due to to the Pfizer vaccine?

[Mr Van Dijk died suddenly after suffering a cardiac arrest whilst swimming with his family. He had not in fact been vaccinated. Ms Nicholls deleted the tweet and apologised for her false claim and the severe distress it had caused the family and school.]

Maybe you should spend more time on endeavours that serve a worthwhile purpose, and lead to you becoming a better son and work colleague. For a start cut the incessant lies and bullshit.

I already established that for the TheKanga and anti-vaxxers this is just faux outrage.

When prompted to point out why they never mentioned about people with heart problems before that get these conditions everyday, they admittedly never have an answer. Of course they'll complain about obesity levels and tell us why we don't mandate exercise and ban junk food during a viral pandemic.

Still yet to hear why 11,000 children who've died from Covid is acceptable? If you didn't know Slippery Pete on the main board will use laugh emojis with kid deaths.

What about the 1.1 million kids who've lost a parent due to Covid, that's fine too?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Everyone here should expect a run on the shops soon. When the trucks stop moving goods around the country will grind to a halt real quick.

Why do you see that happening?

‘Double trouble’ to hit Australia in weeks

Australia is on the brink of a major crisis that could see tens of thousands of vehicles pulled off the road, grocery supplies dwindle and prices skyrocket, with every citizen set to be impacted.

www.news.com.au

 

[Chief]

So you accept that the vaccines can harm otherwise healthy people.

A night out on the turps can harm otherwise healthy people.

Covid-19 has a far, far greater chance of harming healthy people.

Other drugs that have not been monitored anywhere near as closely as these vaccines can harm healthy people.

 

[Chief]

If somebody gets a vaccine and then develops heart conditions, should they be compensated?

If it’s related to the vaccine they should have free medical care and income support while they recover.

This will be far, far cheaper than Covid running unchecked through the population.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

If it’s related to the vaccine they should have free medical care and income support while they recover.

They already have free medical care.

And by 'income support' you mean the dole, yeah?

This will be far, far cheaper than Covid running unchecked through the population.

So this is an economic thing for you now? Your opinions are based on the economic result?

Is that what you're now saying?

 

[mouncey2franklin]

A night out on the turps can harm otherwise healthy people.

Then it is a good thing we aren't mandated to get pissed, under threat of losing our jobs and civil liberties by the state, yeah?

 

[mouncey2franklin]

Yes, that is my position (mostly).

The State cant just sit there, while people harm others with deliberate misinformation. It's got a job to do.

'Mostly', aye?

And what is that job of the state? Can you articulate it?

Vaccines have killed 9 people in Australia from 40 million doses given. Roughly 1 per 5 million.

1) Source required.

2) What about injuries?

Do they not matter in your line of thinking?

 

[Hawk Dork]

'Mostly', aye?

And what is that job of the state? Can you articulate it?



1) Source required.

2) What about injuries?

Do they not matter in your line of thinking?

The stats from Qld was 3,000 jabs save 15 lives and keep 100 people out of hospital....you do the maths

 

[Mick F]

I already established that for the TheKanga and anti-vaxxers this is just faux outrage.

When prompted to point out why they never mentioned about people with heart problems before that get these conditions everyday, they admittedly never have an answer. Of course they'll complain about obesity levels and tell us why we don't mandate exercise and ban junk food during a viral pandemic.

Still yet to hear why 11,000 children who've died from Covid is acceptable? If you didn't know Slippery Pete on the main board will use laugh emojis with kid deaths.

What about the 1.1 million kids who've lost a parent due to Covid, that's fine too?

Or how they think we can have 60% vaccinated and minimal restrictions?

The only way to have minimal restrictions, for those who aren’t vaccinated for medical reasons, or their beliefs, is to have 95%+ fully vaccinated - herd immunity threshold.

The threat of the mandate and restrictions is a one part of a strategy; to come-down to a manageable level of infections, hospitalisations and deaths (IHDs) where we don’t need to impose mandates and restrictions (WHS requirements aside).

If 95% is reached mid Dec, it is possible to ‘be open’ for Xmas.

The public authorities will be cognisant of their responsibility to closely monitor the IHDs.