Covid-19 Mandatory vaccines

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Crankyhawk

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Oh side effects.

Headache, temporary heart issues (that might coincidently highlight some other unknown health issue).

What are we arguing here. Your career, paycheck over a temporary possibility. Is that your argument

meaningless troponin bumps, not even real heart issues. And many more worried well who come to ED with "chest pain"
 

awaremind

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No, you look at their collection methodology.

You look at corroborating evidence.

If Romania's Covid official numbers are low but you have someone living there telling you the hospitals are treating people on the street under tarps, you reject the official stats.
That’s exactly the same thought process I’m using in Australia, when the stats say Myocarditis is 1 in 10000 but it’s happened to several of my friends, and people I’ve met keep telling me people are dropping dead after second jab of Pfizer .
 

Chief

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Myocarditis is 1 in 10000 but it’s happened to several of my friends, and people I’ve met keep telling me people are dropping dead after second jab of Pfizer .

And the Romanian excess mortality stats are very high because deaths are hard to hide.

"83.9% in Romania and 88.2% in Bulgaria."

And experts are also probing stats and they don't add up.

And so on.

Not just "my mate says... "
 

awaremind

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And the Romanian excess mortality stats are very high because deaths are hard to hide.

"83.9% in Romania and 88.2% in Bulgaria."

And experts are also probing stats and they don't add up.

And so on.

Not just "my mate says... "
Mobile goalposts eh
 

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Crankyhawk

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That’s exactly the same thought process I’m using in Australia, when the stats say Myocarditis is 1 in 10000 but it’s happened to several of my friends, and people I’ve met keep telling me people are dropping dead after second jab of Pfizer .
Panicky chest pain post jab is not myocarditis.
 

awaremind

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I
I am happy for you to ignore the first post and go with that one that includes more facts, and admit the first one missed those facts.
It would take a fair bit of time and analysis but a really thorough and unbiased inspection of different nations responses to covid and the out comes would be very interesting. I haven’t done enough, but it really doesn’t seem like high vaccination rates alone are the answer.
 

Chief

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it really doesn’t seem like high vaccination rates alone are the answer.
And plans have always included distancing, masks, and isolation of infected people. Experts also call for better air quality. One company in the UK was amping up air conditioning in their student residence buildings, hoping to have air pressure differentials between public and private spaces to help lower chance of spread.
 

Seeds

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ABS.

On pure numbers, Covid has killed 110 <50yo in 2 years. Flu 21 in 2017.

But the question was whether influenza killed the young. It is more deadly by a factor of 10, though less infectious.

And nor is death the only consequence of influenza.
But almost everyones been vaccinated in australia bring the death rate well down. not the case for flu where vaccination rates are low.
 

sr36

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ABS.

On pure numbers, Covid has killed 110 <50yo in 2 years. Flu 21 in 2017.

But the question was whether influenza killed the young. It is more deadly by a factor of 10, though less infectious.

And nor is death the only consequence of influenza.
I don't get how those stats relate to your earlier claim of flu having a ten fold higher death rate in that Age Group. Those stats are showing more deaths from covid, despite the massive restrictions to keep that number of deaths so low. Restrictions that also involved flu deaths going to zero in all age groups for a 12 month period.
 

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pc79

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According to current evidence, when vaccinated you:

1. Can still get SARS-CoV-2. Of course you can. Vaccines aren't an invisible shield to stop viruses entering your body.
2. Have less chance of developing Covid-19 from this infection. The vaccine has primed your body to recognise the virus and develop antibodies. This is proven.
3. Have less chance of passing on SARS-CoV-2 through lower viral load and shorter time to kill off the virus. This is proven.
4. Have less chance of going to hospital if you do develop Covid-19. This is proven.
5. Have less chance of going into ICU if you do go to hospital. This is proven.
6. Have less chance of dying. This is proven.

Unless you have extraordinary evidence to the contrary, don't go around saying this stuff isn't true. Happy to adjust this if proven otherwise.

All points above are valid and correct, however are viewed from 30,000 feet and are more relevant to the previous Delta strain than the current Omicron strain.

Focussing in on the relative risks to each group, vaccinated/unvaccinated - The discussion shouldn't be about a one size fits all approach. There is enough evidence now that proves there are more susceptible groups that should be protected (O65s and O40s with other health issues, and those with significant health issues of any age) while the rest of society should be left to decide what they do with their bodies.
We're probably way too far down the track for this given the % take up of the vaccines in Australia, but I'm now seeing more vaccination regret amongst my peer group in London (30s-40s) given the government's narrative around 2 doses and we get back to normal, and the limited protection they offer against the new (more mild) variant.

Some other things to consider
  • Omicron is spreading through the entire population (vaxd/unvaxxed) without prejudice (blatantly obvious).
  • The recent surge in cases in Australia was not due to an out of control virus, it's due to testing (RATs) becoming more widely available. Those numbers will have still been underrepresented.
  • Boosters 1 + 2 provide decreasing effective protection, particularly against omicron. i.e the more vaccinations the less long lasting protection they give (See Israel studies)
  • Previous infection (vaccinated, or unvaccinated) creates almost identical protection from future infection and hospitalisation (see CDC information) therefore no need to keep jabbing if you've been infected.
  • Naturally infected and recovered unvaccinated carry higher natural immunity against COVID than vaccinated recovered (See NHS studies for week 42 2021)
  • of the reported ~133k deaths due to Covid in the UK to Sept 2021, 17,300 were solely attributable to COVID (mostly Delta) with an average age of 82.5. The remainder had one or more comorbidities. No doubt COVID may have been a contributing factor and possibly accelerated the death of those infected (See ONS (Office of National Statistics UK), but these reported numbers is an overstatement of almost 8 times!

For me, this is all very interesting and suggests mandates are NOT the way to go particularly considering the transmission of omicron through vaccinated communities.
 

Crankyhawk

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All points above are valid and correct, however are viewed from 30,000 feet and are more relevant to the previous Delta strain than the current Omicron strain.

Focussing in on the relative risks to each group, vaccinated/unvaccinated - The discussion shouldn't be about a one size fits all approach. There is enough evidence now that proves there are more susceptible groups that should be protected (O65s and O40s with other health issues, and those with significant health issues of any age) while the rest of society should be left to decide what they do with their bodies.
We're probably way too far down the track for this given the % take up of the vaccines in Australia, but I'm now seeing more vaccination regret amongst my peer group in London (30s-40s) given the government's narrative around 2 doses and we get back to normal, and the limited protection they offer against the new (more mild) variant.

Some other things to consider
  • Omicron is spreading through the entire population (vaxd/unvaxxed) without prejudice (blatantly obvious).
  • The recent surge in cases in Australia was not due to an out of control virus, it's due to testing (RATs) becoming more widely available. Those numbers will have still been underrepresented.
  • Boosters 1 + 2 provide decreasing effective protection, particularly against omicron. i.e the more vaccinations the less long lasting protection they give (See Israel studies)
  • Previous infection (vaccinated, or unvaccinated) creates almost identical protection from future infection and hospitalisation (see CDC information) therefore no need to keep jabbing if you've been infected.
  • Naturally infected and recovered unvaccinated carry higher natural immunity against COVID than vaccinated recovered (See NHS studies for week 42 2021)
  • of the reported ~133k deaths due to Covid in the UK to Sept 2021, 17,300 were solely attributable to COVID (mostly Delta) with an average age of 82.5. The remainder had one or more comorbidities. No doubt COVID may have been a contributing factor and possibly accelerated the death of those infected (See ONS (Office of National Statistics UK), but these reported numbers is an overstatement of almost 8 times!

For me, this is all very interesting and suggests mandates are NOT the way to go particularly considering the transmission of omicron through vaccinated communities.
One of the major risk factors (even in under 40s) is obesity which is extremely prevalent in Australia. To protect the vulnerable including the obese pretty much means doing whole population anyway (obese and families)
 

Chief

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I'm now seeing more vaccination regret amongst my peer group in London (30s-40s) given the government's narrative around 2 doses and we get back to normal, and the limited protection they offer against the new (more mild) variant.
Why would they regret getting vaccinated? Because they thought that would be it?
 

pc79

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Why would they regret getting vaccinated? Because they thought that would be it?
Basically yes, and that the reported severity of infection was wildly overstated for people of their age/health status. I suppose though, when you're in the eye of the storm you do what you can to protect yourself and others. But now there's a bit of a track record and an ability to look back, the likelihood of severe issues from covid would have been minimal for them individually, and as we were in lockdown for so long and not seeing anyone the protection of others was basically void.
A couple of them have had some dodgy health things pop up too.. watering eyes, tingles in hands, breathlessness, chest pangs (grabs). So they're questioning if it was the vaccine.
 

pc79

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One of the major risk factors (even in under 40s) is obesity which is extremely prevalent in Australia. To protect the vulnerable including the obese pretty much means doing whole population anyway (obese and families)
I'd consider obesity being one of the health issues stated where vaccination should be encouraged (or a run around the park, probably moreso).

I think the rhetoric of 'protect the vulnerable' is somewhat dead in the water now that omicron is breaking through vaccinations, both in and out, so there needs to be another tactic to combat the spread, or improve immunity. Not just vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate. It doesn't work. It might if the vaccines were more effective.

I personally think we're through the worst of it and as natural infection spreads through communities we'll be done.

I've seen many people being suspended/dropped off these boards for offering a contrary opinion against the general consensus. Having an open conversation about new information that comes to light, new trends from all over the world is important for understanding, education and supporting an open dialogue.
 

Chief

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Basically yes, and that the reported severity of infection was wildly overstated for people of their age/health status.
Then they're stupid.

I mean, maybe not stupid but definitely convinced by misinformation.

It's not a logical position to take when you ignore the bullshit and lies put out by grifters.
 

Chief

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now that omicron is breaking through vaccinations, both in and out,
Latest studies show triple the transmission from unvaccinated as vaccinated.

Lower deaths. Lower injuries. Less long Covid.

Get off the anti-vax train. It's a cardboard box in your idiot mates backyard.

The all electric, high speed rail of vaccination is where it's at, bro.
 

pc79

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Then they're stupid.

I mean, maybe not stupid but definitely convinced by misinformation.

It's not a logical position to take when you ignore the bullshit and lies put out by grifters.
They're stupid because...? They did the right thing and got vaccinated? Or that in hindsight they wonder whether or not it was the right thing to do now more information is out about their actual risk profile and they're having some strange health issues not previously experienced?

I'd be interested in what the lies the grifters are circulating? I've seen some ridiculous points of view re the vaccines.. but also 2 years ago I think you'd have been hard pressed to convince anyone that we'd be in a situation where certain people would have their freedoms removed, or society segregated because of a health decision they make.
 

Chief

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Or that in hindsight they wonder whether or not it was the right thing to do now more information is out about their actual risk profile and they're having some strange health issues not previously experienced?
It's natural to be swayed by bad information if you're not equipped to handle it.

Have they reported these "health issues"? They would be big news if these could be linked to the vaccines. Get them onto their doctors or just get them to submit the reports themselves.

They have a duty to report and prove these vaccines cause health issues.

This would be worldwide news. Get on it.
 

Chief

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I'd be interested in what the lies the grifters are circulating?
Oh there's a big list.

Anything by Malone is prime lie territory.

That YouTube guy with a PhD in nursing education is getting into some fringe s**t lately.

Alex Jones. Clive Palmer is dipping his oar in Covid denial. Lots of little scammers picking away every day.

You should check all these guys out.
 

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