Marcus Drum

[Pure_Ownage]

Scarlett and Taylor are versatile key defenders. They are capable of playing in a much more diverse nature than a traditional tall like Lonergan who is pretty much confined to a key post only. Scarlett more so than Taylor for sure....but there is talk above about how we can't play a backline of three talls because they are too slow? Both are very agile and mobile, Lonergan is certainly not in that bracket.

Lonergans disposal is far from poor too....yes he has made some bad decisions, but on the whole he has been more than reliable as indicated by his effeciency stats....you could equally have a look at the effect of Mackies turnovers or Taylors loopy handballs. My suggestion is to keep Lonergan as a key post and keep his role simplified to the most defensive in the team... which is why i allude to the Egan role of 2007, which was when our backline was inpenetrable.

As for Marcus Drum....well, to use his name in the same breath as the senior side is totally unfounded. For one, he has not prooved himself at any level (his few VFL games did not result in anything special) and he has got a long long way to go before he reaches the level needed to sit in a defensive post.

We are always going to have players who have flaws....yes Hunt goes to ground and probably cost us the QF final this year for his poor performance on Milne, (however Scarlett on Kosi was also shocking). Lonergan is not that mobile, Milburn is loosing some of his mobility, Mackie can be a turnover king when not on song and Taylor does have some issues with his handball disposing.... However, with the right mix back there we can more than compensate.

Besides, I think defense is the least of our issues at the moment....they performed admirably last year and the current mix - which i have a feeling might include more of Joel Corey this year, is still clearly the best. I hope Drum and Gillies both come on, but i have seen no evidence of this thus far...Laidler was definitley the best performing VFL option last year.

Ok, now I understand your argument, and you have a point. But here's the problem, Lonergan is not versatile like the other two, and thus playing him involves playing one of the other two out of position. Now that's not to say they can't do that, but is Scarlett a better half back than a full back? Of course not. Hence why I've said whenever Scarlo hangs them up or if Harry gets injured and they think Lonergan is the best replacement ahead of Gillies, Drum etc then fine, but to play Lonergan in order to play Scarlett on a flank is silly.

Re the efficiency stats, don't pay heed to that stat, it's horribly misleading. Keep in mind if Lonergan handballs to a guy with someone behind him, who immediately tackles him and the turnover results in a goal, Lonergan's disposal is still counted as efficient so long as it hit the target, even though it got a goal against us. The stat doesn't mean nearly as much as people think it does. The fact that Lonergan hesitates, taking up time, and then often goes backwards or to someone not in a better position, makes it harder for us to clear the ball from defence. It's by no means the only reason we have that problem, but it does play a part in it.

As for Marcus Drum, of course he didn't show much at the end of a year after 4 months out that kills your fitness. I wouldn't be so hasty to write him off, time will tell on that one.

As for the flaws you speak of, it's why we have to change at least one member of the backline mix. We can't simply have the same setup, particularly as players continue to age, and simply hope that our weaknesses will improve themselves.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

Disagree with the logic of changing our backline too much....this was part of our strong point last year. We got let down further up the ground in both midfield (dominated by Collingwood in prelim) and forward line - who struggled to get into the game defensively when we weren't serving them up delivery on a silver plate.

Backline, including Lonergan functioned very well....Agree completely that stats don't reveal too much, however Lonergan is effective if his role is kept basic. He is no Presti - he has a better level of skill than that, but he definitely is no Scarlett. He made a few bad mistakes that have been highlighted too frequently at the expense of the countless times he was able to be part of an effective link up passage. I would be interested to see the turn-over stats, including those under pressure and those that resulted in opposition scores. Given the way we play this would be quite high for a number of our backline players i would imagine...I actually have more of a problem with Taylor's handball delivery placing others under pressure than any of Lonergans disposal skill (seriously, have a look at Taylor's palm fist action, it really needs to get fixed).

As for Lonergan not being versatile, that is exactly the point. We don't need him to be, in fact the more defensively minded he is the better i think we will be served. I keep harping back to Egan 07 for a reason and that is because the big guy was awesome in playing that purely defensive big man to take the opposition Gun. Egan's disposal was very similar to Lonergan in being nothing special...but he could do the basic team things required...his concentration on defense was his biggest attribute....remember when he broke his foot how he was killing Brown, only for Scarlett to then be moved onto him and be comprehensively beaten? All i'm saying is that because Taylor and Scarlett have greater versatility, let Lonergan grind out the pure defensive role and give Taylor and Scarlett more flexibility - this is pretty much in line with how we were playing last year and i don't see a credible reason to disband this.

As for Marcus Drum, i absolutely hope he does come good. However, in the 5 seasons of AFL (not sure precisely how many) he hasn't established himself in any team (VFL or AFL) and certainly could not be regarded as and adequate replacement for any of the current senior team....yet.

Ok, now I understand your argument, and you have a point. But here's the problem, Lonergan is not versatile like the other two, and thus playing him involves playing one of the other two out of position. Now that's not to say they can't do that, but is Scarlett a better half back than a full back? Of course not. Hence why I've said whenever Scarlo hangs them up or if Harry gets injured and they think Lonergan is the best replacement ahead of Gillies, Drum etc then fine, but to play Lonergan in order to play Scarlett on a flank is silly.

Re the efficiency stats, don't pay heed to that stat, it's horribly misleading. Keep in mind if Lonergan handballs to a guy with someone behind him, who immediately tackles him and the turnover results in a goal, Lonergan's disposal is still counted as efficient so long as it hit the target, even though it got a goal against us. The stat doesn't mean nearly as much as people think it does. The fact that Lonergan hesitates, taking up time, and then often goes backwards or to someone not in a better position, makes it harder for us to clear the ball from defence. It's by no means the only reason we have that problem, but it does play a part in it.

As for Marcus Drum, of course he didn't show much at the end of a year after 4 months out that kills your fitness. I wouldn't be so hasty to write him off, time will tell on that one.

As for the flaws you speak of, it's why we have to change at least one member of the backline mix. We can't simply have the same setup, particularly as players continue to age, and simply hope that our weaknesses will improve themselves.

 

[meto]

Lonergan is our most vital component in defense for season 2011, hopfully they can groom another pillar defender if and when required.

We've been lost since Matt Egan went down, welcome to a regular senior role Tom!

 

[darren forssman]

Lonergan is our most vital component in defense for season 2011, hopfully they can groom another pillar defender if and when required.

We've been lost since Matt Egan went down, welcome to a regular senior role Tom!

get your hand off it meto...scarlett is much more important and should be taking the best forward each week not minding diversions like dawes or cambell brown.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

get your hand off it meto...scarlett is much more important and should be taking the best defender each week not minding diversions like dawes or cambell brown.

Pretty hard to argue with that. Scarlett is by far and away our best and most reliable defender...still has good years left in him too.

I would love to see him take the best forward every week and really nail that FB position again. Would love to see him retain his destructive attacking flair as well....

I think Lonergan fits in perfectly with this model as Scarlett is not just a one trick pony - he will run off his player, as should Taylor. In that event, Lonergan should always be the player to stay back and play defensive post. He is the cover .... As we all know, football is not played man on man anymore, even defenders zone off and play defense/attack zones....in exploiting the zone, blokes like Enright, Mackie, Milburn and Scarlett are phenomenal at countering defense with masterful attacking runs...however the flipside of this of course is that occasionally they get burnt on the rebound and are out of position....with Lonergan looking to be more defensive then he is the key to negating the rebound if we do get caught on the turnover (remember that a ridicuolous number of goals last year were forced from defensive pressure causing turnovers that directly resulted in scores - i.e. The pies and saints gameplan).

However, Scarlett as always is our number 1 defender.

 

[maxy87]

Wow way to turn a thread about marcus drum into a lonergan one.. But i may as well keep it going. Ive said it once and ill say it again, Lonners is not anywhere near the calibre of the rest of the defenders that regularly take the field for us. Yeah Taylor may arguably have a handballing issue, but Id take his overhead mark late in the last stanza of the '09 GF over anything Lonergan has done. Scarlett is a no-brainer. To even compare Scarlo with Lonners is offensive IMO. Mackie may also do a few questionable things here and there but his versatility is a huge selling point. Ive only ever seen Lonners get owned in defence. I dont mean to disrespect the bloke but seriously, he was there as a band-aid this year and it showed. The Lonergan lovers will detest me but I honestly think he's by far the weakest link in our side and would want to lift his game this year. He has physical attributes which are useful in Key Positions..

Anyway, to Drum. Really looking forward to seeing what he can do. Has a mountain of potential and had a few problems at Freo which hopefully he can overcome this year. If he shows early form he'll be in team. I dont thinl its that unfounded, really.

 

[meto]

get your hand off it meto...scarlett is much more important and should be taking the best forward each week not minding diversions like dawes or cambell brown.

You ought to know about it mate! your obviously not considering my point properly. It's not about Lonergan v Scarlett, it's about the value of having a true big guy at centre back.

It helps everybody, including Mathew Scarlett! and Dasher and Hunt and Kelly, do you get my drift?

On Taylor yeah! 09 he had a great game on Riewolt, but what's happened since then, Lonners covered for him against Cloke as well I remember, you gotta move fwd.
One man carn't do it every game, that's why they need the big guy at CHB with the Q9.

 

[you pick one]

You ought to know about it mate! your obviously not considering my point properly. It's not about Lonergan v Scarlett, it's about the value of having a true big guy at centre back.

It helps everybody, including Mathew Scarlett! and Dasher and Hunt and Kelly, do you get my drift?

On Taylor yeah! 09 he had a great game on Riewolt, but what's happened since then, Lonners covered for him against Cloke as well I remember, you gotta move fwd.
One man carn't do it every game, that's why they need the big guy at CHB with the Q9.

I see the problem with the Lonergan debate being, the answer not black or white,FOR EXAMPLE .I see him as a must against Saints,Pies,Lions,Hawks any one with multiple tall forwards and I mean tall not your just 190 cm stuff,Scarlo, and Harry can look after them,and I can see him being exploited against sides like Carlton with pace,Horses for Courses policy for me.

 

[darren forssman]

You ought to know about it mate! your obviously not considering my point properly. It's not about Lonergan v Scarlett, it's about the value of having a true big guy at centre back.

It helps everybody, including Mathew Scarlett! and Dasher and Hunt and Kelly, do you get my drift?

you said lonergan is the vital component, i think a fit and healthy scarlett nullifying the best forward is the vital component.

On Taylor yeah! 09 he had a great game on Riewolt, but what's happened since then, Lonners covered for him against Cloke as well I remember, you gotta move fwd.
One man carn't do it every game, that's why they need the big guy at CHB with the Q9.

i never said anything about taylor from memory, but lonergan also got his arse handed to him in the prelim. much like taylor did against reidwoldt.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Disagree with the logic of changing our backline too much....this was part of our strong point last year. We got let down further up the ground in both midfield (dominated by Collingwood in prelim) and forward line - who struggled to get into the game defensively when we weren't serving them up delivery on a silver plate.

Backline, including Lonergan functioned very well....Agree completely that stats don't reveal too much, however Lonergan is effective if his role is kept basic. He is no Presti - he has a better level of skill than that, but he definitely is no Scarlett. He made a few bad mistakes that have been highlighted too frequently at the expense of the countless times he was able to be part of an effective link up passage. I would be interested to see the turn-over stats, including those under pressure and those that resulted in opposition scores. Given the way we play this would be quite high for a number of our backline players i would imagine...I actually have more of a problem with Taylor's handball delivery placing others under pressure than any of Lonergans disposal skill (seriously, have a look at Taylor's palm fist action, it really needs to get fixed).

As for Lonergan not being versatile, that is exactly the point. We don't need him to be, in fact the more defensively minded he is the better i think we will be served. I keep harping back to Egan 07 for a reason and that is because the big guy was awesome in playing that purely defensive big man to take the opposition Gun. Egan's disposal was very similar to Lonergan in being nothing special...but he could do the basic team things required...his concentration on defense was his biggest attribute....remember when he broke his foot how he was killing Brown, only for Scarlett to then be moved onto him and be comprehensively beaten? All i'm saying is that because Taylor and Scarlett have greater versatility, let Lonergan grind out the pure defensive role and give Taylor and Scarlett more flexibility - this is pretty much in line with how we were playing last year and i don't see a credible reason to disband this.

As for Marcus Drum, i absolutely hope he does come good. However, in the 5 seasons of AFL (not sure precisely how many) he hasn't established himself in any team (VFL or AFL) and certainly could not be regarded as and adequate replacement for any of the current senior team....yet.

In one sense you are right, and I will be willing to admit Lonergan is good as a shut down (although my comments about his disposal stand and are very relevant in the modern game), but it's still robbing Peter to pay Paul-while Lonners did good stopping jobs, and Scarlett can play ok on a flank, he still played far and away his best footy as FULL BACK where he killed guys like Bradshaw et al, as Partridge has pointed out. The key issue with having Lonergan in the side, apart from his disposal, is the fact that it forces the full back of the century to play not at full back, so you have to factor that negative, and it is a negative, in when considering his worth. People who think that at 32 Scarlett can suddenly become a gun attacking flanker simply to accomodate Lonergan (which is an insult to Scarlo anyway) need to be realistic, he's been a gun as a full back, and still is, whereas he doesn't do nearly the damage on a flank to justify playing him there. He is a Scarlett gun, but that doesn't mean he can be Enright or that he should be pushed into said role. When you factor this loss in, having Lonergan as a full back is a nil all draw at best, it's not a net benefit to the side. The interchange rule may see him stay, but that's a tactical reason and it doesn't negate the point. It's why I'm keen for Gillies or Drum to progress and push into the side on merit (form) because them playing does not require Scarlett being pushed out of full back, whereas Lonergan does.

On Drum, time will tell.

 

[you pick one]

PO.why not lonergan at CHB Scarlett at FB and Harry doing the Harley roll,when there up against the bigger forward lines.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

In one sense you are right, and I will be willing to admit Lonergan is good as a shut down (although my comments about his disposal stand and are very relevant in the modern game), but it's still robbing Peter to pay Paul-while Lonners did good stopping jobs, and Scarlett can play ok on a flank, he still played far and away his best footy as FULL BACK where he killed guys like Bradshaw et al, as Partridge has pointed out. The key issue with having Lonergan in the side, apart from his disposal, is the fact that it forces the full back of the century to play not at full back, so you have to factor that negative, and it is a negative, in when considering his worth. People who think that at 32 Scarlett can suddenly become a gun attacking flanker simply to accomodate Lonergan (which is an insult to Scarlo anyway) need to be realistic, he's been a gun as a full back, and still is, whereas he doesn't do nearly the damage on a flank to justify playing him there. He is a Scarlett gun, but that doesn't mean he can be Enright or that he should be pushed into said role. When you factor this loss in, having Lonergan as a full back is a nil all draw at best, it's not a net benefit to the side. The interchange rule may see him stay, but that's a tactical reason and it doesn't negate the point. It's why I'm keen for Gillies or Drum to progress and push into the side on merit (form) because them playing does not require Scarlett being pushed out of full back, whereas Lonergan does.

On Drum, time will tell.

I'm not, nor have ever suggested that Scarlett be played anywhere but fullback and furthermore he should pick up the best forward on all occasions. That is certain. However what i am suggesting is that Scarlett has always had a greater capacity to his game and run's off his opponent frequently to be part of frequent counter attacks. This is great and should always be encouraged, this applies to Enright, Milburn, Mackie and Taylor also....however, what we have seen in spades this year is that turnover football further up the ground results in the majority of scoring against our side (and pretty much the entire competition). Why not give Scarlett and other more dynamic players a licence to continue their counter attack whilst keeping a more mundane defender like Lonergan closer to home?

It does not suggest that Scarlett play anywhere but FB....but ill be ****ed if you start telling me that Scarlett doesn't play his best football when he has full scope to launch counter attacks... I think the same of Harry, Milburn and Mackie. With Lonergan floating around the defense and playing a pure defensive role it gives that extra cover needed to exploit our counter attacks.

Aside from this, we are in the age of the zone - traditional positions are limited in the sense that the majority of our defensive structure will move off their direct opponents and into space as soon as we have possession of the ball - and even in defensive zones we tend to mark space not the man now. Lonergan can certainly fit into and already has fitted into this structure.

Nobody yet has put a better backline together as evidence so far to suggest that Lonergan is not worthy of a position? Certiainly Marcus Drum and Tom Gillies have not done anything worthy yet to claim a spot in what was an excellent backline yet again last year.

 

[meto]

PO.why not lonergan at CHB Scarlett at FB and Harry doing the Harley roll,when there up against the bigger forward lines.

Hooray! Someone understands! that way we fill the gaps left by Egan and Harley.
> thankyou, YPO.

By the way, Drum may or maynot cut it, 2011 will make or break, IMO.

 

[maxy87]

On Taylor yeah! 09 he had a great game on Riewolt, but what's happened since then

Umm... He was All Australian CHB this year.

Admitedly finals output this year was below par but he had stuff going on in his personal life like fathering a child which may have distracted him, not to mention the other internal rubbish that was going on.

Lonners is a borderline spud IMO. Will be useful again as the back up option, but if Drum gets fit and firing (and Gillies and Smedts for that matter) his days will bw numbered. However, if he lifts his game he is every chance to command a post at least for the short term. The barometer for this would be me not holding onto my chair in anxiety every time the ball enters our defensive 50, which I regularly do when he is down there

 

[meto]

Umm... He was All Australian CHB this year.

Admitedly finals output this year was below par but he had stuff going on in his personal life like fathering a child which may have distracted him, not to mention the other internal rubbish that was going on.

Lonners is a borderline spud IMO. Will be useful again as the back up option, but if Drum gets fit and firing (and Gillies and Smedts for that matter) his days will bw numbered. However, if he lifts his game he is every chance to command a post at least for the short term. The barometer for this would be me not holding onto my chair in anxiety every time the ball enters our defensive 50, which I regularly do when he is down there

Gillies, Smedts and Drum, you have to be kidding yourself, get out of dreamworld mate and get back in reality.

Not one of the above, apart from Drum who couldn't make it at Dockers, has played an AFL game.
Not only that, but all of them are flanker size when compared to Lonergans 197cm. There all to small!!
Smedts is just out of nappies, come on and get real! Rediculous over expectations on a flanker type in any case.

Not only that, but could you imagine Gillies ( whose had a few reserve seasons) lining up on Buddy or Clokey in a big game, mate, I'd just shut my eyes and pray.

I find your bigotry to Lonergan totally out of all proportion, man you've lost it!

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Gillies, Smedts and Drum, you have to be kidding yourself, get out of dreamworld mate and get back in reality.

Not one of the above, apart from Drum who couldn't make it at Dockers, has played an AFL game.
Not only that, but all of them are flanker size when compared to Lonergans 197cm. There all to small!!
Smedts is just out of nappies, come on and get real! Rediculous over expectations on a flanker type in any case.

Not only that, but could you imagine Gillies ( whose had a few reserve seasons) lining up on Buddy or Clokey in a big game, mate, I'd just shut my eyes and pray.

I find your bigotry to Lonergan totally out of all proportion, man you've lost it!

Agree with all of this. Whether everyone likes it or not, Lonergan is the only 195+cm defender on the list at the moment, and we just cannot start putting Gillies/Drum/Smedts/West/Ben Johnson/Bathie etc. ahead of him based on a lack of objectivity. Lonergan is going to be the only option we have in 2011 to play on a resting ruckman too, unless of course you want to take Taylor off the roaming CHF to cover the height factor.

 

[maxy87]

I agree that he is the only option we have at the moment that is 195cm plus, but Im just saying when others come on his days will be numbered. I may have lost the plot as some have speculated but I just can't comprehend the sheer amount of praise Lonergan while having a dig at Harry Taylor. Thats just wrong.

Gillies and Drum are KPP so my idea is not that unfounded. Smedts may open up a new position for somebody else to fill is all Im saying..

 

[you pick one]

Umm... He was All Australian CHB this year.

Admitedly finals output this year was below par but he had stuff going on in his personal life like fathering a child which may have distracted him, not to mention the other internal rubbish that was going on.

Lonners is a borderline spud IMO. Will be useful again as the back up option, but if Drum gets fit and firing (and Gillies and Smedts for that matter) his days will bw numbered. However, if he lifts his game he is every chance to command a post at least for the short term. The barometer for this would be me not holding onto my chair in anxiety every time the ball enters our defensive 50, which I regularly do when he is down there

It appears the whole St Kilda football team are out doing that every weekend,It's not effecting there footy.
May be Harry needs to harden up excuse the pun

 

[maxy87]

It appears the whole St Kilda football team are out doing that every weekend,It's not effecting there footy.
May be Harry needs to harden up excuse the pun

Well theyve lost 3 GFs in a row while Harry has a medallion. But yeah Saints have a few issues.. Harry is also with a PARTNER building a family, not a 17 yo slapper! It takes a lot out of you when you actually care about the person you've had a child with.

Now can we just go back to discussing Drum?

 

[winty]

Gillies, Smedts and Drum, you have to be kidding yourself, get out of dreamworld mate and get back in reality.

Not one of the above, apart from Drum who couldn't make it at Dockers, has played an AFL game.
Not only that, but all of them are flanker size when compared to Lonergans 197cm. There all to small!!
Smedts is just out of nappies, come on and get real! Rediculous over expectations on a flanker type in any case.

Not only that, but could you imagine Gillies ( whose had a few reserve seasons) lining up on Buddy or Clokey in a big game, mate, I'd just shut my eyes and pray.

I find your bigotry to Lonergan totally out of all proportion, man you've lost it!

Gillies has actually played six AFL games.

 

[darren forssman]

Gillies has actually played six AFL games.

dont let facts get in the way of a meto rant.

 

[maxy87]

Gillies has actually played six AFL games.

Good from you, Winty.

And it wasn't a case of Drum not being able to make it, but a combination of injuries and homesickness, just for the record.

 

[you pick one]

Well theyve lost 3 GFs in a row while Harry has a medallion. But yeah Saints have a few issues.. Harry is also with a PARTNER building a family, not a 17 yo slapper! It takes a lot out of you when you actually care about the person you've had a child with.

Now can we just go back to discussing Drum?

This won't take long.NUMBER 10 Draft pick 2005 Freo.
Four seasons 22 games.
Traded to Geelong one season 2010 nil games.
Born 1/5/87 ...24 next month.
Wears no 23.
Height 191cm weight 87kg.
Will he make it at Geelong?Don't know!
That's me I'm all Drumed out Maxy

 

[meto]

I agree that he is the only option we have at the moment that is 195cm plus, but Im just saying when others come on his days will be numbered. I may have lost the plot as some have speculated but I just can't comprehend the sheer amount of praise Lonergan while having a dig at Harry Taylor. Thats just wrong.

Gillies and Drum are KPP so my idea is not that unfounded. Smedts may open up a new position for somebody else to fill is all Im saying..

Well if you call yourself a Geelong supporter start having a look at his potential as a big stopper and start building the guy up, he's had to cope coming in and out of the team over the last two seasons to take the oppositions biggest and usually their best forward.

So start thinking positive forgoodnasake!

And nobody's knocking Harry T, he's copped manfully on his own to often, that's why I'm really hoping for a big Lonergan season, because he is an essential ingredient, so get on board.

And Merry Christmas to you and yours.

 

[maxy87]

Id love for Lonners to come on further too, just saying he needs to lift his game and I hope he does. I want to have every geelong player playing good footy but I can also look at our players objectively. He definitely has height on his side and to a certain degree, strength so its up to him.

My original involvement in the current series of posts was to note that a Marcus Drum thread has turned into a lonergan thread and then to a Harry Taylor bashing thread... For me, to talk up lonners as some gun defender is just ludicrous.

Merry xmas to you to