Marcus Drum

[Gaz_Brownlow]

We'll have to agree to disagree, as I think with these three in the side the team is extremely unbalanced. Lonergan has shown he can only play a key post, and playing three key defenders instead of two just makes us top heavy and slow. As evidenced in the finals.

I think this good that Lonergan is more a traditional defender. I think Taylor is capable of playing a larger role and his best games to date have seen him floating as third man, backing himself in for marks and using the ball long. I am quite comfortable for him to expand on this role and leave the pure defensive aspects up to Lonners.

I think people pick up quite heavily on Lonergans mistakes and neglect the great defensive roles he has played this year. He is far from perfect, but I feel he fits our structure well. The rose coloured glasses tend to come out for Taylor a bit i think, he was beaten quite a few times last year but seems to be favoured by the faithful more so than Lonergan. Not to take anything away from Taylor, i just think that our defense (with the exception of Scarlett) is more reliant on being part of a greater unit than being comprised of match winning individuals.

 

[-Junior-]

Lonergan did fantastic jobs on key forwards and one that sticks out to me is the monday afternoon i think it was at the G on Buddy. Time after time he got a fist in and spoiled when i thought Buddy had a couple meters on him.

I get frustrated with his mistakes as much as anyone but i must say for a pure lockdown spoiler on a guy like Buddy he is valuable. As long as he dosnt have the ball in his hands he is ok.

The question then is can we afford to have a bloke in the backline that we really dont want to have the ball in his hands in this day and age?

 

[you pick one]

Lonergan did fantastic jobs on key forwards and one that sticks out to me is the monday afternoon i think it was at the G on Buddy. Time after time he got a fist in and spoiled when i thought Buddy had a couple meters on him.

I get frustrated with his mistakes as much as anyone but i must say for a pure lockdown spoiler on a guy like Buddy he is valuable. As long as he dosnt have the ball in his hands he is ok.

The question then is can we afford to have a bloke in the backline that we really dont want to have the ball in his hands in this day and age?

Perception is not always reality, disposal efficiency rounded off from the AFL web site for 2010.Harry Taylor 83%....Mathew Scarlett 84%....Tom Lonergan87%.Mathew and Tom had roughly the same amount of disposals so fair comparison there. Harry about 60 odd more, so a little more scope for error,
I know I'll cop stats are crap but interesting all the same.

 

[Lager]

Perception is not always reality, disposal efficiency rounded off from the AFL web site for 2010.Harry Taylor 83%....Mathew Scarlett 84%....Tom Lonergan87%.Mathew and Tom had roughly the same amount of disposals so fair comparison there. Harry about 60 odd more, so a little more scope for error,
I know I'll cop stats are crap but interesting all the same.

Ill ask you this: Who's hands would you prefer the ball to be in - Taylors or Lonners? I cringe whenever I see Lonergan with the ball...

 

[you pick one]

Ill ask you this: Who's hands would you prefer the ball to be in - Taylors or Lonners? I cringe whenever I see Lonergan with the ball...

So do I but he's obviously not the only one turning it over, I don't think we came out of the back line well at all this year,one area were Scott can look for improvement,turning it over approximately 15 times out of 100 is probably acceptable anyway, it's more how and where it was turned over that's the problem,deep in defense 30 mts out in the corridor
is certainly no acceptable.

 

[darren forssman]

I think Taylor is capable of playing a larger role and his best games to date have seen him floating as third man, backing himself in for marks and using the ball long.

examples?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I don't know which Tom Lonergan you were watching this year, but for all the over-praise of Taylor that goes on there seems to be some unfair criticism of Lonners. I specifically recall Collingwood Rnd 19 and Prelim finals where i was sitting in the lower section of the MCG at half forward and saw Taylor get comprehensively beaten by Cloke 3 times in the first quarter before Lonners was able to sit back and occupy the true defensive role.

I think Lonners is very important to our structure. He has definitely continued to improve and in my opinion gives us the more Matthew Egan type player we have craved since the heyday's of 2007. Taylor has certainly been a gun CHB, but he is best when he allows himself to float a little and attack....lets not forget that he does get beaten sometimes by the bigger bodies, his greatest successes have come against Riewoldt in the wet, but Riewoldt on a fine day is a different task alltogether.

I like the balance that Lonnergan and Taylor provide, especially with Scarlo still in the side....Gillies and Drum have the possibility of slotting in their somewhere too....especially if we see a repeat of the Josh Hunt/Stephen Milne incidents of the 2nd quarter of the qualifying final!!!

Lonergan had a great year, and is a pretty good stopper, and I agree cops too much on the board at times. That said, his disposal and decision making are still liabilities and you would have to concede that. There is a reason why whenever guys like Enright and even Scarlett have the ball that opposition forwards rush to close their space down, but when Lonergan has it they deliberately sit off him...they are coached that way because all the clubs know Lonergan is prone to hesitating, and then often after hesitation, giving it to someone in a worse position. TWe got killed this year in terms of turning it over in our defense, and while game plan changes may fix this, there also may need to be personnel changes, and Lonergan may well need to be a part of that. Who knows, maybe he can improve this area of his game over the summer, but if not he should be far from a lock, regardless of his shut down capabilities. Personally I don't think we can have a backline compromised of someone who can't use the football (Lonergan), someone who is slow (Milburn) and someone who often goes to ground (Hunt) and I think part of a revival in 2011 will mean at least one of the three needs to be jettisoned in favour of more pace and guys with good disposal. Which is why I said if Gillies or Drum can contribute the same as Lonergan defensively (which I admit is far from certain at present) then you would have them in ahead of him every day of the week, and twice on Sundays, because they can actually use the football. This is no disrespect to Lonners, for I'm a big wrap of what he's done in 2010, but rather a realistic assessment of what we'll need to do to beat the top sides in 2011.

 

[darren forssman]

po, you should become a political speech writer.

 

[Partridge]

Lonergan had a great year, and is a pretty good stopper, and I agree cops too much on the board at times. That said, his disposal and decision making are still liabilities and you would have to concede that. There is a reason why whenever guys like Enright and even Scarlett have the ball that opposition forwards rush to close their space down, but when Lonergan has it they deliberately sit off him...they are coached that way because all the clubs know Lonergan is prone to hesitating, and then often after hesitation, giving it to someone in a worse position. TWe got killed this year in terms of turning it over in our defense, and while game plan changes may fix this, there also may need to be personnel changes, and Lonergan may well need to be a part of that. Who knows, maybe he can improve this area of his game over the summer, but if not he should be far from a lock, regardless of his shut down capabilities. Personally I don't think we can have a backline compromised of someone who can't use the football (Lonergan), someone who is slow (Milburn) and someone who often goes to ground (Hunt) and I think part of a revival in 2011 will mean at least one of the three needs to be jettisoned in favour of more pace and guys with good disposal. Which is why I said if Gillies or Drum can contribute the same as Lonergan defensively (which I admit is far from certain at present) then you would have them in ahead of him every day of the week, and twice on Sundays, because they can actually use the football. This is no disrespect to Lonners, for I'm a big wrap of what he's done in 2010, but rather a realistic assessment of what we'll need to do to beat the top sides in 2011.

Can't fault anything written there.

The reality is you cannot field a side with known weaknesses, the good sides will simply exploit them and we'll continue to get beaten. Depends what fans what. I want them to be as strong and competitive as possible, and if that means Lonergan or Mooney or Corey or Hawkins or whoever doesn't get picked, tough luck.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Can't fault anything written there.

The reality is you cannot field a side with known weaknesses, the good sides will simply exploit them and we'll continue to get beaten. Depends what fans what. I want them to be as strong and competitive as possible, and if that means Lonergan or Mooney or Corey or Hawkins or whoever doesn't get picked, tough luck.

Agree with you.

Of course just about all players, with the exception of our top end ones, have some weaknesses, but the side overall can't really have glaring weaknesses, and for me one of ours is getting the ball out of defence. I think this is partly a gameplan issue and will improve if we kick more, but I also think as I said it may require a personnel change, and the quickest and best ball users must play (subject to form of course) and if that means a good honest trier, as good as his 2010 was, like Lonergan, has to sit out some games, then so be it (or any other changes that you mention, your changes I quite agreed with).

 

[you pick one]

Lonergan had a great year, and is a pretty good stopper, and I agree cops too much on the board at times. That said, his disposal and decision making are still liabilities and you would have to concede that. There is a reason why whenever guys like Enright and even Scarlett have the ball that opposition forwards rush to close their space down, but when Lonergan has it they deliberately sit off him...they are coached that way because all the clubs know Lonergan is prone to hesitating, and then often after hesitation, giving it to someone in a worse position. TWe got killed this year in terms of turning it over in our defense, and while game plan changes may fix this, there also may need to be personnel changes, and Lonergan may well need to be a part of that. Who knows, maybe he can improve this area of his game over the summer, but if not he should be far from a lock, regardless of his shut down capabilities. Personally I don't think we can have a backline compromised of someone who can't use the football (Lonergan), someone who is slow (Milburn) and someone who often goes to ground (Hunt) and I think part of a revival in 2011 will mean at least one of the three needs to be jettisoned in favour of more pace and guys with good disposal. Which is why I said if Gillies or Drum can contribute the same as Lonergan defensively (which I admit is far from certain at present) then you would have them in ahead of him every day of the week, and twice on Sundays, because they can actually use the football. This is no disrespect to Lonners, for I'm a big wrap of what he's done in 2010, but rather a realistic assessment of what we'll need to do to beat the top sides in 2011.

The bold is sheer fantasy land PO.Good peice other than that.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

Ill ask you this: Who's hands would you prefer the ball to be in - Taylors or Lonners? I cringe whenever I see Lonergan with the ball...

I used to be the same but the stats are a pretty good indicator that Lonergan had a terrific 2010. I saw the Hawks game live and he did a great job on Buddy and used the ball well. I still think he is on the rise and will feature prominently in 2011.
Perception of him needs to change - after all it was him who bailed Taylor out in 2010 and not vice versa. I think he's come a long way.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

And really his career pre-coma can't exactly be included, since he had to rebuild himself virtually from scratch - if you consider that he really only started playing seniors with regularity in 2008 (virtually nothing in '09), then he's come a long way in that space of 1.5 - 2 seasons. Half of the hate is because he's been on the list since the '02 draft and is therefore an "old" name, a "list clogger".

 

[Partridge]

And really his career pre-coma can't exactly be included, since he had to rebuild himself virtually from scratch - if you consider that he really only started playing seniors with regularity in 2008 (virtually nothing in '09), then he's come a long way in that space of 1.5 - 2 seasons. Half of the hate is because he's been on the list since the '02 draft and is therefore an "old" name, a "list clogger".

I'm not sure about that. Don't forget, that prior to his injury in 2006, he'd already been at the club for 4 years. It needs to be remembered that he wasn't a skinny 18-year-old when he came back in 2008, he was a physically mature player.

It might be less romantic, but it's the truth.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

I'm not sure about that. Don't forget, that prior to his injury in 2006, he'd already been at the club for 4 years. It needs to be remembered that he wasn't a skinny 18-year-old when he came back in 2008, he was a physically mature player.

It might be less romantic, but it's the truth.

There are some massive under appreciation of the job Lonergan did this year. Nobody is comparing him to Scarlett or Taylor but the fact remains he was able to subdue a number of key forwards this year, particularly at times when Taylor and dare i say it Scarlett were not able to the job. Prominent examples include against Buddy and Cloke. Say what you will about his disposals (which are not that bad by the way), but the fact remains that he was able to complete a role for the team that others were unable....for this reason alone he should be right in the mix this year, and certainly is a mile and a half ahead of Marcus Drum, who has not played senior AFL in two years and is not known for key position roles.

People seem to highlight Lonners mistakes much to readily and seem to have a mental blank when recalling incidents like Taylor's palm fist handball's the spend more time looping towards a target and placing somebody under pressure then setting up play. Truth of the matter is that Lonergan worked very hard last year to obtain his place and put some very admirable performances in allowing more freedom to Taylor and Scarlett, whom admittedly are much better within general play. From the current list, i definitely see a spot for Tom Lonergan within our 22, Marcus Drum is definitely an unknown quantity...but lets hope he suprises us all!

 

[darren forssman]

hahahaha...taylor definitely needs handball coaching.

those scoop-a-loopa's need some work.

getting back to drum, maybe he is the guy that can play that floating 3rd man up that maxwell and harley play so well.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

I'm not sure about that. Don't forget, that prior to his injury in 2006, he'd already been at the club for 4 years. It needs to be remembered that he wasn't a skinny 18-year-old when he came back in 2008, he was a physically mature player.

It might be less romantic, but it's the truth.

I think it also needs to be remembered that he lost 17kg while he was recovering from the emergency surgery, and had to overcome the huge mental obstacle of getting hit again. There is nothing romantic about rehabilitation, let alone getting back to performing at the highest level. That he came back looking physically mature is a testament to his 2007, not to the years preceding his injury.

 

[worthogs]

I think it also needs to be remembered that he lost 17kg while he was recovering from the emergency surgery, and had to overcome the huge mental obstacle of getting hit again. There is nothing romantic about rehabilitation, let alone getting back to performing at the highest level. That he came back looking physically mature is a testament to his 2007, not to the years preceding his injury.

Bravery and ability to recover from serious injury can not be put to one side nor can the fact that he is not super talented and will always be the first man out if a more able person comes in. He struggled up forward and while he played some shut down roles last season he may not make the long term cut cut under a new coach and game plan, especially if it is one more based on defensive play and less play on.....Time will tell.

Personally I want to see what Drum can offer the team.

 

[Partridge]

There are some massive under appreciation of the job Lonergan did this year. Nobody is comparing him to Scarlett or Taylor but the fact remains he was able to subdue a number of key forwards this year, particularly at times when Taylor and dare i say it Scarlett were not able to the job. Prominent examples include against Buddy and Cloke.

When did Scarlett struggle with an opponent this season? The only time that comes to mind is the first quarter against St.Kilda in the Qualifying Final, and he responded but not allowing Kosi to touch the ball in the remaining three quarters.

Remember, just because Thompson lost his mind and started playing Scarlett on a half-back flank doesn't mean he can't play full-back anymore. Remember the game against Sydney in Round 7? Bradshaw was the red-hot key forward of the competition, in close to career-best form. Scarlett played on him and obliterated him, playing a major part is us winning easily.

Lonergan did perform some tremendous stopping jobs, no one is disputing that. But the fact remains that as long as he is in the side you are fielding three genuine key defenders, and with the speed of the game now I don't think you can afford more than two.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Bravery and ability to recover from serious injury can not be put to one side nor can the fact that he is not super talented and will always be the first man out if a more able person comes in. He struggled up forward and while he played some shut down roles last season he may not make the long term cut cut under a new coach and game plan, especially if it is one more based on defensive play and less play on.....Time will tell.

Personally I want to see what Drum can offer the team.

This isn't about bravery trumping talent, it's about a severe setback that didn't just stall his development, but actually reversed it. His 2010 is what we should have seen from him in 2008 in terms of development and experience, and I don't believe for a minute that he's "peaked". We'll still see improvement from Lonergan.

Apologies for derailing the Drum thread, but I think it needed to be pointed out. There is definitely a place for Drum now that we know there was a loose succession plan in place between Milburn and Laidler prior to his trade.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

This isn't about bravery trumping talent, it's about a severe setback that didn't just stall his development, but actually reversed it. His 2010 is what we should have seen from him in 2008 in terms of development and experience, and I don't believe for a minute that he's "peaked". We'll still see improvement from Lonergan.

Apologies for derailing the Drum thread, but I think it needed to be pointed out. There is definitely a place for Drum now that we know there was a loose succession plan in place between Milburn and Laidler prior to his trade.

Fair enough.

And what Lonergan has done is to be commended, and he may well become a serviceable AFL player, and as I said before, if he's considered the best full back option whenever Scarlett retires, or even CHB if Taylor gets injured (i hope not) then that's perfectly fine, but the concept of him playing full back so Scarlett can run around on a flank, which is actually a net loss to our team, is completely ludicrous. Scarlo certainly doesn't need the help, as we saw again this season. I agree with Partridge that three talls is an issue with the speed of the game, maybe it's not a terminal issue for Lonergan if he can improve his mobility and disposal to the extent that he can play in a Harley type role (even though he replaced Harley's spot, he hasn't reprised that role), personally I don't think he can, but who knows, if not he probably should be marginal at best in terms of selection. Either way he should not play in Scarlett's spot and I hope Scott isn't stupid enough to do that just because Thompson was.

On the bolded (we should get back to Marcus now) I agree. Obviously Laidler's exit has opened up more opportunity for Marcus, and given the floating defender role is a role he's played well at AFL level, you'd assume he's a very very good chance this year if Milburn gets injured or slows down etc.

 

[Belisarius]

I just keep thinking Marcus was a top 10 ND pick. Now sure it was the Dockers making this selection but you would still expect him to have some talent and ability if picked this low.

So I think he has at least a 50/50 chance of making at Catland - if injuries do not get in the way.

I think in the end he was probably always more likely to make it over Laidler. However we shall see what happens at Carlton over the next 2 seasons.

As far as Lonergan goes - perhaps there is still improvement to come - and I think we will know this by seasons end.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

This isn't about bravery trumping talent, it's about a severe setback that didn't just stall his development, but actually reversed it. His 2010 is what we should have seen from him in 2008 in terms of development and experience, and I don't believe for a minute that he's "peaked". We'll still see improvement from Lonergan.

Apologies for derailing the Drum thread, but I think it needed to be pointed out. There is definitely a place for Drum now that we know there was a loose succession plan in place between Milburn and Laidler prior to his trade.

Lonergan has still got upside for sure. The fact remains though that he was a consistent defender in 2010 and played an important role for the team. Nowhere near our best player, but certainly wasn't underperforming and easily commanded his place in the team.

As for the three talls in defense rubbish....I don't think you can really count Taylor or Scarlett as Talls...they are mobile, creative, attacking players who are anything but slow. Scarlett can destroy small forwards ... i.e Campbell Browns 3 touch effort last year...he can do that and rebound as well. I think we have room for Lonergan as a pillar....this is the role Egan played so beautifully in 2007 and allowed Harley, Scarlett and Milburn to play off and use their attacking games. This is what Lonergan can bring back to the side....if he can concentrate even further on big man stopping - i.e. taking the likes of Buddy, Riewoldt, Cloke, Hall, Brown etc....than we add a very strong defensive dimension to our side that allows us to counter attack to an even greater extent. From watching us play over the last 4 years our defense was clearly at its peak in 2007 when Egan filled this role...it has been great since then of course, but i consider the peak to be 2007.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Lonergan has still got upside for sure. The fact remains though that he was a consistent defender in 2010 and played an important role for the team. Nowhere near our best player, but certainly wasn't underperforming and easily commanded his place in the team.

As for the three talls in defense rubbish....I don't think you can really count Taylor or Scarlett as Talls...they are mobile, creative, attacking players who are anything but slow. Scarlett can destroy small forwards ... i.e Campbell Browns 3 touch effort last year...he can do that and rebound as well. I think we have room for Lonergan as a pillar....this is the role Egan played so beautifully in 2007 and allowed Harley, Scarlett and Milburn to play off and use their attacking games. This is what Lonergan can bring back to the side....if he can concentrate even further on big man stopping - i.e. taking the likes of Buddy, Riewoldt, Cloke, Hall, Brown etc....than we add a very strong defensive dimension to our side that allows us to counter attack to an even greater extent. From watching us play over the last 4 years our defense was clearly at its peak in 2007 when Egan filled this role...it has been great since then of course, but i consider the peak to be 2007.

That's exactly what they are.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

Scarlett and Taylor are versatile key defenders. They are capable of playing in a much more diverse nature than a traditional tall like Lonergan who is pretty much confined to a key post only. Scarlett more so than Taylor for sure....but there is talk above about how we can't play a backline of three talls because they are too slow? Both are very agile and mobile, Lonergan is certainly not in that bracket.

Lonergans disposal is far from poor too....yes he has made some bad decisions, but on the whole he has been more than reliable as indicated by his effeciency stats....you could equally have a look at the effect of Mackies turnovers or Taylors loopy handballs. My suggestion is to keep Lonergan as a key post and keep his role simplified to the most defensive in the team... which is why i allude to the Egan role of 2007, which was when our backline was inpenetrable.

As for Marcus Drum....well, to use his name in the same breath as the senior side is totally unfounded. For one, he has not prooved himself at any level (his few VFL games did not result in anything special) and he has got a long long way to go before he reaches the level needed to sit in a defensive post.

We are always going to have players who have flaws....yes Hunt goes to ground and probably cost us the QF final this year for his poor performance on Milne, (however Scarlett on Kosi was also shocking). Lonergan is not that mobile, Milburn is loosing some of his mobility, Mackie can be a turnover king when not on song and Taylor does have some issues with his handball disposing.... However, with the right mix back there we can more than compensate.

Besides, I think defense is the least of our issues at the moment....they performed admirably last year and the current mix - which i have a feeling might include more of Joel Corey this year, is still clearly the best. I hope Drum and Gillies both come on, but i have seen no evidence of this thus far...Laidler was definitley the best performing VFL option last year.