Mature Age Recruits

[matty p]

Anyone think we will go down this road this year given that our list is now so inexperienced? After the success of Barlow and Podsiadly this year, it has to be attractive.

It sounds like Myles Sewell, brother of Hawthorn's Brad, may be the leading candidate. He's a 22 year old midfielder, and actually beat out Barlow for the Liston Medal as the best player in the VFL last year.

Would we look at someone like Myles Sewell to strengthen our midfield?

 

[Kickin_Goals]

be pretty stupid not to.

 

[relapse]

If we upgrade our rookies ie Jaench and Schmidt (Hendo has already signed) we aren't going to have heaps of draft picks (only 3-4) I personally think they might be better off used on developmental players.

 

[Vader]

Several comments...

Firstly, I agree that there is a need to add 1 or 2 more mature bodied footballers to our list in the upcoming draft/trade period. Around the 2006/2007 period our team list was reminiscent of "Dad's Army" (hence the introduction of the "Jason Torney rule"), with all the retirements we've had this year our current team list is closer to "Play School". Many of our kids are barely out of nappies and they need some harder bodies around them to prevent them from being battered from pillar to post.

I would also like to give you credit for actually identifying a potential draftee - Myles Sewell. Most people take the lazy option and just say "surely there must be more Podsiadlys and Barlows out there - we just have to find them". You haven't gone down this road and I congratulate you for it.

Another name which may come up is Ed Curnow, who was previously on our rookie list in 2008. Curnow has been playing some outstanding footy for Box Hill this year in the VFL and is highly likely to get a 2nd chance on an AFL list somewhere.

I suspect the final decision will depend heavily on what happens during trade week. If we manage to pick up a couple of mature aged players (eg Griffen) then the problem will be alleviated to some degree, reducing the need for a high risk mature aged draftee.

It's all very well so point to Barlow and J-Pod and say - look what diamonds are available in the state leagues. The problem is that this focuses only on the success stories. For every Barlow/J-Pod/Porplyzia there are 10 Brodie Atkinsons, Nick Gills, Bryce Campbells and Rhys Archards - and that's just our own mature aged failures.

There are usually very good reasons why these players were overlooked when they were teenagers. Some players are able to overcome their deficiencies, but the majority are ultimately exposed due to the same flaws which saw them passed over in the first place. The odds of a mature aged draftee "making it" in the AFL is, in general, no better than that of a teenage draftee taken at 50+ in the draft.

In short, whilst it is possible that the mature aged draftee could turn out to be a diamond in the rough - the odds are that they would be just more dead wood waiting to be burned.

 

[dbcrow]

Well said.

I'd imagine a very small percentage of mature age recruits work out. jPod and Barlow are the exceptions, no question.

Having said that though, it would be remiss of the club not to at least look into it. Given the draft picks available to GC, every other club would be looking at mature age recruits too.

 

[lunacy]

In short, whilst it is possible that the mature aged draftee could turn out to be a diamond in the rough - the odds are that they would be just more dead wood waiting to be burned.

Exactly. There is usually a good reason for a mature aged player being overlooked in the past. Usually its because they are either too short, too slow, or poorly skilled scrubbers.

Whilst its the new fad, I dont want our recruiting staff spending too much time and resources searching for a diamond when they are so few and far between and given every club is trying to do the same thing PLUS the suns get 10 free picks of any players who have previously applied for draft.

For the 5% of decent mature aged recruits, the majority of them will be taken by GC and spread between the other clubs. How much time is really worth spending on that small chance of return?

 

[WALL-e]

Judging by the amount of mature players receiving Draft COmbine or State Screening invites, they're well on the market this year.

Some nice talent in the VFL.

 

[Vader]

It's also worth noting that GC have 10 selections before the PSD, in which they are able to select players who have previously been on an AFL list or nominated for the draft. At present everyone is hoping that this excludes players who were on team lists in 2010, or we're faced with the horrifying situation of GC effectively having the first 10 selections in the PSD - which defies logic given the compensation scheme for uncontracted players.

What this means is that we're unlikely to see any mature aged players rookie listed - they will have to be selected in the national draft.

 

[adelaidecrows]

I dont think we need to add any mature bodies to our list other then what we get in the trade period.

the main reason why is that out of all the players leaving at the end of the year only Bock and arguable Goodwin had bodies that stood up to the rigours of AFL. McLeod, Edwards, Hentschell and Burton edged on either being injury prone or out of the best 22.

Henderson, Young, Davies and alot of other kids that are in and out of the side may need just one more pre season under their belts and they will all have mature bodies. Remember Otten comes back in and he was not a small body either. I think you will find we are on the right track. However I wont say no to a mature age player if they think he can break into the best 22 straight away but I dont think its a huge priority.

Remember you can get trapped like brisbane into making a young side into an old side awefully quick. realistically we arent going to win a grand final next year but its the year after that we should be building towards so going old to quickly could hinder the development further of some young kids. Remember what happened in 2003 & 2004.

 

[cammo6556]

i was surprised when sewell didnt get picked up last year... quality player. worth a punt if available and theres a spot on the list

 

[Vader]

Remember you can get trapped like brisbane into making a young side into an old side awefully quick. realistically we arent going to win a grand final next year but its the year after that we should be building towards so going old to quickly could hinder the development further of some young kids. Remember what happened in 2003 & 2004.

I don't think there's any danger of us turning into an old list in 2011.

As of today, our senior list (including the retirees) has an average age of 24.28 years and a median age of 23.75. In terms of average age, this list was already in the middle of the pack (7th or 8th from memory) for the AFL as a whole.

Removing Bock & the retirees reduces the list to an average of just 23.00 years, with a median age of just 21.96. In other words, half our remaining players have yet to celebrate their 22nd birthday. The addition of 3-4 18yo draftees would reduce that average (and median) further. It is highly likely we will have the youngest list in the AFL next year. The departures of Knights and Griffin would also see the average fall, albeit only marginally; the departure of Jacky would almost negate that change.

Nobody is proposing that we go silly, like Brisbane did in 2009. The addition of one or two mature aged players would not hurt.

 

[cmndstab]

If we upgrade our rookies ie Jaench and Schmidt (Hendo has already signed) we aren't going to have heaps of draft picks (only 3-4) I personally think they might be better off used on developmental players.

On the other hand, we're going to have a whole bunch of rookie picks that could be used for this purpose. I'd love to see us just go to each of the state leagues and see "who's the best early-20s midfielder?" and take a risk on each of them.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

Lee Spurr or O'Hara from the Doggies

 

[craig crowing]

Whilst agree with Vaders points we seem to do better with our low draft picks than high picks. And lets face it even our rookies all mature type players have done well and even Wright shown a bit at SANFL.
But to question re how many picks we have to pick up players may want like Sewell , Ohara . etc etc even as low draft picks surely might be worth a chance than hang onto
Jacky . Moran , Armstrong and even Sellar and Cook as they simply are not up to it .
Why keep all of them as fringe players when might get a jewell by taking a punt.

 

[KUNG FU]

It's also worth noting that GC have 10 selections before the PSD, in which they are able to select players who have previously been on an AFL list or nominated for the draft. At present everyone is hoping that this excludes players who were on team lists in 2010, or we're faced with the horrifying situation of GC effectively having the first 10 selections in the PSD - which defies logic given the compensation scheme for uncontracted players.

What this means is that we're unlikely to see any mature aged players rookie listed - they will have to be selected in the national draft.

I've pushed this one before, but apparently its incorrect. Previously listed players, like Brad Miller or ex-Crow Ed Curnow for example, aren't included in this concession, but players like Myles Sewell are.

 

[Mismatched]

Great discussion, it wouldn't surprise me if we, as we generally do, pick up a couple of mature age recruits this year.

First of all, if Griffin does end up heading West and the rumours regarding Moran are true, or even if only one happens, we should be targeting Jon Giles from Sturt. Has had a ripper year and is probably the best available ruckman outside the AFL. He will get picked up, Sturt have already resigned themselves to losing him. Might need to use a 4th/5th rounder to ensure that he doesn't head to the GC with their 10 pre-PSD draft picks.

If not Giles, then I'd have a look at Cockschel, by the sounds he's had a great year out at Souths, could be a useful backup to Maric and is perhaps a little more versatile than Maric too.

I know for a certain that the GC have a strong interest in Curnow and he didn't fail to impress when Box Hill played GC up on the Coast, I saw the game, he played an absolute blinder. We may regret letting him go.

Don't know much about Sewell, but I suppose he's a possibility.

the main reason why is that out of all the players leaving at the end of the year only Bock and arguable Goodwin had bodies that stood up to the rigours of AFL. McLeod, Edwards, Hentschell and Burton edged on either being injury prone or out of the best 22.

How on earth can you not classify Bock as injury prone? Barring Hentschel, and perhaps Burton, he was the most injury prone of them all, but then they've both had massive knee injuries, Bock hasn't. In the past 6 seasons, you could probably say he's had 3 that weren't seriously interrupted by injury, including his last 2. This year was the first time in years, or perhaps ever, that McLeod has missed more than a couple of matches with injury, despite his knee being f'd.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

If Moran's knee in doubt and we are against Tippett rucking, then maybe Giles would be good insurance

 

[cammo6556]

how old is giles? im cautious... we havent had a good run with rucks called john or jon...

 

[Big Sledge #32]

What do people think of Troy Selwood, pretty sure we actively chased him a few years ago and didn't get him. Is in that age group which we are still missing a lot of experience from. But would probably only end up being a depth player, at least he has a crack though and would be better than Schmidt.

 

[Vader]

But to question re how many picks we have to pick up players may want like Sewell , Ohara . etc etc even as low draft picks surely might be worth a chance than hang onto
Jacky . Moran , Armstrong and even Sellar and Cook as they simply are not up to it .
Why keep all of them as fringe players when might get a jewell by taking a punt.

We might pick up a jewel, but the odds are definitely NOT in our favour. Sellar, Armstrong and Cook have all done enough to justify their position on the list in 2011, though they would all have to lift their game if they wish to extend their tenure beyond that point. Jacky is almost certainly gone. Moran's future will be determined by the medical reports - he showed more than enough on the field in 2009 to justify one more year on the list, IF his knee is going to be up to the task.

For team stability reasons it's not wise to delist 1/4 of the team every year. We already have 6 departures confirmed, with 2 players allegedly seeking trades and another 2 who are highly likely to be delisted. That's 10 players gone from the senior & veteran lists, or a 25% turnover already. We really don't need to add to that if at all possible.

In some cases, it's a matter of "better the devil you know". You MAY end up with a pearl, but history shows there is better than a 90% chance you'll just end up with another list clogger.

the main reason why is that out of all the players leaving at the end of the year only Bock and arguable Goodwin had bodies that stood up to the rigours of AFL. McLeod, Edwards, Hentschell and Burton edged on either being injury prone or out of the best 22.

You might want to re-think that comment.

Prior to 2010, Edwards, Mcleod and Goodwin had barely missed a game in years. Macca had played 20+ games every year since 1999 - reduce the cutoff point to 19+ and you have to go back to his debut season in 1995 to find a season when he missed a lot of senior games. Edwards was our Mr Reliable, playing 20+ every year from 1999-2009 inclusive. Goodwin was the least reliable, having failed to play 20+ games in 2003 & 2004 (and I'm not sure you can really call that unreliable).

Hentschel & Burton were both injury prone, no doubt about it. Bock is one of the most injury prone players on our list - in 7 seasons since debut he's only managed to play 20+ on 2 occasions.

 

[craig crowing]

Vader most times agree with your views and posts but although yes our turnaround of players will be high but remember technically we will be elevating 2 - 4 of our rookies already in the system with Henderson a certainity and Schmidt and personally know that Jaensch has had right vibes to be signed. So those numbers and maybe bringing a griffen home or another key player may need to throw in a draft pick then our chances in a compromised but good draft are getting thin to add something different to our list. . I guess it is perception who is a list clogger and how ruthless want to be .
Armstrong -- Had 3-4 chances to make team and every time got dropped after 1 week in a year where we were lucky to have 70 % of list available tells me that really could be called a clogger
Cook -- Had a fabalous chance with numerous games in a row start of season and found out with too many weaknesses and did nothing to get back into team . We gave rookies games ahead of him so why would that not continue. Know lot of love for him on this board but cant see making top 30 again.
Sellar -- Well another undersize ruckman that contary to reports has not played well anywhere else . Just teases us and shows glimpse of what might do but really guess we probably hang onto as top rnd etc etc and hope for best but borderline clogger.
Know will get shot down for these views especially in a year of big turnaround but we need to keep moving forward and take a chance on a low draft pick to gamble on a quick crumbing player and see if works

 

[Magma]

Great discussion, it wouldn't surprise me if we, as we generally do, pick up a couple of mature age recruits this year.

First of all, if Griffin does end up heading West and the rumours regarding Moran are true, or even if only one happens, we should be targeting Jon Giles from Sturt. Has had a ripper year and is probably the best available ruckman outside the AFL. He will get picked up, Sturt have already resigned themselves to losing him. Might need to use a 4th/5th rounder to ensure that he doesn't head to the GC with their 10 pre-PSD draft picks.

If not Giles, then I'd have a look at Cockschel, by the sounds he's had a great year out at Souths, could be a useful backup to Maric and is perhaps a little more versatile than Maric too.

I know for a certain that the GC have a strong interest in Curnow and he didn't fail to impress when Box Hill played GC up on the Coast, I saw the game, he played an absolute blinder. We may regret letting him go.

Don't know much about Sewell, but I suppose he's a possibility.



How on earth can you not classify Bock as injury prone? Barring Hentschel, and perhaps Burton, he was the most injury prone of them all, but then they've both had massive knee injuries, Bock hasn't. In the past 6 seasons, you could probably say he's had 3 that weren't seriously interrupted by injury, including his last 2. This year was the first time in years, or perhaps ever, that McLeod has missed more than a couple of matches with injury, despite his knee being f'd.

I'd put Cockshell above Giles. Not too sure, but I think Cockshell is a touch younger, and has led the competition in hitouts, and has been South's best big man, as well as one of the best in the league, especially for that shambolic club. I believe the only reason he was dropped from Port was for disciplinary reasons, so if he's got he's behaviour under control, he could well be very handy for us. All depends on how he adapts to the AFL of course, as it is with all players.

 

[Vader]

Vader most times agree with your views and posts but although yes our turnaround of players will be high but remember technically we will be elevating 2 - 4 of our rookies already in the system with Henderson a certainity and Schmidt and personally know that Jaensch has had right vibes to be signed. So those numbers and maybe bringing a griffen home or another key player may need to throw in a draft pick then our chances in a compromised but good draft are getting thin to add something different to our list. . I guess it is perception who is a list clogger and how ruthless want to be .
Armstrong -- Had 3-4 chances to make team and every time got dropped after 1 week in a year where we were lucky to have 70 % of list available tells me that really could be called a clogger
Cook -- Had a fabalous chance with numerous games in a row start of season and found out with too many weaknesses and did nothing to get back into team . We gave rookies games ahead of him so why would that not continue. Know lot of love for him on this board but cant see making top 30 again.
Sellar -- Well another undersize ruckman that contary to reports has not played well anywhere else . Just teases us and shows glimpse of what might do but really guess we probably hang onto as top rnd etc etc and hope for best but borderline clogger.
Know will get shot down for these views especially in a year of big turnaround but we need to keep moving forward and take a chance on a low draft pick to gamble on a quick crumbing player and see if works

Armstrong and Cook are both in their 2nd year on the list. I think it's premature to be making decisions about them at this stage, especially when there is no pressing need to do so. Give them 12 months - and if they haven't improved by that time, then we can delist them then. It's not like we'll have many players retiring next year to make up the numbers either.. For that matter, Petrenko would be another one in the last chance saloon with the pair you mentioned.

Sellar needs to be retained if we're going to lose both Griffin and Moran. All of a sudden he becomes the #2 ruckman on our list. Bit of a scary thought isn't it? He's been around longer than the other two, but KPPs take longer to develop - and 2010 was the first time where he's looked like an AFL footballer. Once again, 2010 is not the year to be making a decision on his career - the time for that will be the end of 2011. Another one in the last chance saloon.

I'm well aware that we have 3 rookies requiring upgrading to the senior list. We also have only 1 senior listed player eligible for veteran listing. Even so, with 6 retirements, 2 delistings and 2 tradees that still leaves us with 6 draft selections (less any players arriving by way of trade). I don't see the need to go more than 4 or 5 rounds into this draft if we can avoid it.

 

[sbenno]

So how many positions do we have to fill this year? So far, leaving are:

1. Edwards
2. Goody
3. Macca
4. Burton
5. Hentschel
6. Griffin
7. Bock
8. Jacky (surely...)

At least 2 of those places will be taken up by Henderson and Jaensch being upgraded, leaving us 6 spots to play with (assuming we keep everyone else).

So, at least 6 new comers coming into the side next year.

We can't really afford to blow too many of those on gambling with Mature Age Recruits, but I wouldn't be averse to picking up 1 or 2, particularly if they're speedy outside mids that we need.

Need to make sure we keep youth coming into the side though, and there is also the trading that we're likely to be doing this year.

 

[Vader]

So how many positions do we have to fill this year? So far, leaving are:

By my count we're looking at the following list changes:

Retirements
Andrew McLeod (veteran)
Simon Goodwin (veteran)
Tyson Edwards
Brett Burton
Trent Hentschel
Brian Donnelly (rookie)

Delistings
Nathan Bock
Brad Moran (probable)
Jarrhan Jacky (probable)

Trades Out
Chris Knights (probable)
Jonathon Griffin (probable)

Veteran Upgrade
Michael Doughty

Rookie Upgrades
Ricky Henderson (confirmed)
Matthew Jaensch (probable)
Chris Schmidt (probable)

By my count, that's 9 players going off the senior list, with 3 replacements at this stage.

It would also leave us with 5 rookie positions to be filled. We would also be able to have 1 "nominated rookie" - effectively the 40th player on our senior list, able to play in 2011 without the need to replace a long term injury listed player.