Meesen

[nananana catman]

If Messen was in this years draft, where would he go?

That probably answers what we should be giving up for him.

 

[malvern]

Someone said we have 5 ruckmen atm We may have "5 ruckmen" on the list but we do not have 5 ruckmen at AFL standard.

King is just about shot, Otto cannot be a full time ruckmen, Blake has a long way to go still, West?? someone else??

We need a quality ruck prospect and that is Meesen. Anybody who thinks we have ruck stocks is kidding themselves.

 

[malvern]

If Messen was in this years draft, where would he go?

That probably answers what we should be giving up for him.

Exactly.

I think we would have to give up a rnd 2 plus a player of interest to Adelaide.

 

[Asty]

Whilst I realise Meesen hasn't played any AFL games yet, in the last 6 weeks he has :

1) Stepped up as the number 1 ruckman for Norwood
2) Reeled off some impressive numbers (approx 15 HO and 15 possies p/g)
3) Enjoyed 2 years of physical and mental development
4) Enjoyed 2 years of specialised ruck coaching

Probably the only reason he hasnt played AFL is the fact that the AFC are having a tilt at the flag and are going with Biglands and Clarke in the lead up to the finals. Had he been on, say, Brisbanes list instead of Wood, he probably would be racking up the same sort of numbers.

I'm not going to come on here and start suggesting you should hand over 2 first rounders, but all things considered, I think some of the suggestions on here as to what he is worth are just a little absurd. As far as ruckmen are concerned, and considering where the AFC are in terms of the premiership clock, his development IMO is right on schedule.

If you don't want him, then you could always opt for Leunberger and spend the time and money developing him over the next 2 years yourself. You'd also have to give up your first rounder to get him (which could be spent on Meesen).

Those are fair enough comments but the problem is getting a ballance between what he is worth and what we would be willing to pay for him. Remember geelong are unlikely to offer early draft picks as they have already stated their need for some pacy midfielders in this years draft (esp with hawkins coming in as a kpp). Also it maybe that Adelaide will trade for one of our mobile forwards (in the hopes they do better over there) now that hentschel is out. Playfair was showing signs before he broke his jaw and craig might consider him as a lead up player? But I wouldn't hold my breath on meesen being anywhere but the crows at this stage and apart from that we would all have to wait until trade week.

 

[GoSarge]

The thing you must remember is other clubs will take him for nothing. If not Ess , the Car.If not Carlton then Haw. Somebody would take him have no fear and then you get zilch for those two years of grooming. He is not worth a pick in the top10 this year because he is not in the same draft, simple as that.All in the same draft it would be interesting to see where he went but he will not be in the National draft , he will be in the Pre-Season draft. This de-values him and any other player that doesnt make it into the senior side withing the first two years. Maybe this year you should look at SA kids or you may just be facing the same thing in two years time.

'Worth' is very subjective. Its all to do with perceived value, clubs needs etc etc.

Clubs will take him for free no probs, IF he made it to the PSD.

The AFC, undoubtedly, would trade him if he wanted to go home and take the best deal on offer before he made it to the PSD and there should be enough interest from Victorian clubs to drive his price reasonably high. (Unless he's like Fergus - St Kilda or nowhere!!)

My guess is we'll wind up with a draft pick between 10 and 25 or similar value, probably somewhere in the middle.

As for Kingsley, what's the deal with him ? How come he's been out of favour ?

 

[Asty]

'Worth' is very subjective. Its all to do with perceived value, clubs needs etc etc.

Clubs will take him for free no probs, IF he made it to the PSD.

The AFC, undoubtedly, would trade him if he wanted to go home and take the best deal on offer before he made it to the PSD and there should be enough interest from Victorian clubs to drive his price reasonably high. (Unless he's like Fergus - St Kilda or nowhere!!)

My guess is we'll wind up with a draft pick between 10 and 25 or similar value, probably somewhere in the middle.

As for Kingsley, what's the deal with him ? How come he's been out of favour ?

Yep if he is in high demand obviously you get a bidding war which is good for adelaide footy club better than letting him go psd anyway.

Not sure on kingsley as he started the season well with a large haul in one of the nab cup games and then a big haul in the early rounds of the regular season. But I think he was also suffering a bit early in the season from a hammy strain and got shut down a couple of times and maybe lost confidence and just hasn't made if back again this season. He has been kicking a few in the vfl prior to last week though. I think he is good on the lead if the ball is going to hit his chest and he has a yard but this year anything above his head he seems to be struggling to one grab it.

 

[GoSarge]

Well hopefully Kingsley can find some form for your guys sakes.

Good to have an intelligent 'trade/draft' discussion without the typical :

"he wont make our best 22!"
"hes only worth a 4th rounder!"
"hes done nothing at AFL level!"

bullsh|t responses you get on the main board.

 

[Asty]

Well hopefully Kingsley can find some form for your guys sakes.

Good to have an intelligent 'trade/draft' discussion without the typical :

"he wont make our best 22!"
"hes only worth a 4th rounder!"
"hes done nothing at AFL level!"

bullsh|t responses you get on the main board.

St Kilda also should be after him as they really do need a good ruckman to back up kosi (blake and ackland are no good and aren't going to get any better).

"he wont make our best 22!"
and
"hes done nothing at AFL level!"
are the only factual comments from above but the comments also hold no weight as to what he is worth as ruckmen take longer to progress as they are lanky bean poles at 18 and need to have 100+kg bodies to come close to competing at AFL level around the ground. Same with KPP who need to work body on body for contested ball. What is value is is looking at him will he become a strong ruckmen who can give us 1st use and will he give us value around the ground (esp in the air). If he is going to be a spida or cox etc then that is just a bonus.

 

[DBAH0]

I'm not going to come on here and start suggesting you should hand over 2 first rounders, but all things considered, I think some of the suggestions on here as to what he is worth are just a little absurd. As far as ruckmen are concerned, and considering where the AFC are in terms of the premiership clock, his development IMO is right on schedule.

If you don't want him, then you could always opt for Leunberger and spend the time and money developing him over the next 2 years yourself. You'd also have to give up your first rounder to get him (which could be spent on Meesen).

Considering that St. Kilda gave up pick #17 in a fairly average draft for Fergus Watts (who had played at AFL level for the Crows before going to the Saints), do you think it's really fair that we would give up pick #7 for a developing ruckman who hasn't played at senior level yet.

By all means, Adelaide can ask for a 1st round pick for him. But if he's out of contract, and threatens to walk in the PSD, then if the Crows want to get something for him, they may have to take a 2nd round pick and something else.

Kind of reminds me of the Nick Davis trade to Sydney. Collingwood thought he was worth a 1st rounder, but Sydney were never going to get that for him, so they had to settle for a 2nd round pick.

 

[catempire]

A debate is always interesting with you CE.

Ditto Turbo. I always enjoy your posts.

We disagree but we are not far away from each other. I rate Enright as well but I just think his position is one we can cover and in fact one we have to improve in. The thing that drives me towards , in your mind , over stocking our Rucks is I place a very high value on the tallest midfielder on the ground. The general shortage of quality in this area is shown in the price what the Dogs paid for Street ,what the Swans paid for Chambers and what we paid for Ottens. I agree with having a Rookie Ruckman, lets have a look for a couple of years and if we like him, well , we can put him on the list and if we don’t like him try again. West almost could have been a Rookie , he seems a long way off. Long term we should always have one Rookie ruckman but I do feel we may need the services of a ruckman far earlier than a Rookie will be able to supply it.

For those who say getting another ruckmen is not our priority , I totally disagree. Our midfield is getting flogged and we lack a leader who is young and fit, a big man who is not playing thru pain, struggling against his body but is jumping with exuberance. Somebody who get their hands to the ball and give our mids a chance to trust their ruckman to win the contest as well as someone capable of making distance around the ground, having the stamina to give and give, capable of being an option for a pass and can finish the work with good disposal himself. In essence a Cox type and I don’t see anyone on our list who is even close to the full package. In fact I don’t see anyone who I have the confidence to say they will be able to ruck 65 quarters of match winning football in a season.

Whether Meesen is the ruckmen we want, I cant say. He was rated by Adelaide , that’s for sure. To go past Woods a local to take him and risk the go home factor they must have thought high of him. He has been playing in the second best comp in Aust so at the very minimum he has already put in the equal of two years in the VFL. If he's the talent we want he should be close to being ready.

If he is the one then trading a half back flanker for a future ruckman and draft pick that could basically enable you to draft another half back flanker is not a bad deal. Hey if you could get it done for Charlie and R4 then great but if he is that good there may be a few others interested.
If he is not the one then Id be happy enough to take Leuenberger a kid who is playing against men in WA , who may be far less ready but looks to be spot on for our needs.

I am well familiar with your enthusiasm for bolstering our ruck stocks.

I suppose my bottom line is that it is a big burden to carry 5 ruckman on your list. I'm not saying it can't be done - I'm sure if I could be bothered looking I'd find a couple of AFL clubs who have 5.

THe problem is essentially that King is weighing us down. We get the worst of both worlds. He hasn't injured himself so badly that he has been our for a long period of time - something which would give Blake a much better opportunity and would fast-track his development. He just has these niggles which mean he can play, but he's no where near 100% fitness or form. So we're effectively nursing a ruckman who will never give us 100% output but is denying other ruckmen the chance to grow into the role.

If King were to retire, I'd be saying let's move heaven and earth to get Meeson. It would be a great scenario. But King's not going to retire. We're not going to trade or delist him either. In fact, in all likelihood he'll have another season or two playing at the same standard as we've seen out of him in the past few years.

I've gone off track a bit, but my point overall can be summarised as thus:

1. You don't trade players of Enright's calibre unless they fit into one of the six categories I describe here

2. Meeson is yet to play an AFL game. Turbo is right, he can go in the PSD but he won't command high calibre players or picks above about 20.

3. Five ruckman is too many to carry on an AFL list.

 

[Drummond]

straight swap for stokes he's played more senior footy

You’re joking surely? Stokes is almost 2 years older and is purely a goal sneak. Whereas Meesen has just turned 20, was rated as the best ruck prospect in the 2004 draft, and has come on in leaps and bounds this season. Meesen will eventually be one of the most complete ruckmen in the game; I suggest you start putting forward a more enhancing deal to the AFC if you wish to get Meesen.

 

[GeeCat]

THe problem is essentially that King is weighing us down. We get the worst of both worlds. He hasn't injured himself so badly that he has been our for a long period of time - something which would give Blake a much better opportunity and would fast-track his development. He just has these niggles which mean he can play, but he's no where near 100% fitness or form. So we're effectively nursing a ruckman who will never give us 100% output but is denying other ruckmen the chance to grow into the role.

And therein lies the crux of the King (and Blake) debate.

I do wonder though, what people's reasoning behind chasing Meesen is. Is it based on the belief that Meesen, a former 1st round draft pick, is our next numero uno in the ruck department? Or is it, for the most part at least, more for a case of insurance (and stocking up)? I tend to feel that the former is at the forefront of many a people's minds.

And not that I don't think Meesen is capable of being an AFL ruckman, but the underlying point is, these kids have to be played, and have to develop one way or another. So what I still struggle to realise is why many are still so resistant to playing Blake (on a consistent basis, not purely when his name bobs up in the best for the VFL, which it regularly does anyhow)? What is so different between the two that we will, arguably, be willing to give Meesen the time and effort, yet not Blake?

I guess my point is, we can chase these young ruckmen, Meesen or Leunberger, but in the end, we're going to have to be willing to persist with them, bear with them, and put time and effort into them. The same applies to Blake. So why aren't people so willing to do the forementioned with the Gazelle?

 

[catempire]

Totally agree GeeCat. Blake should be played in every game next season whether King plays or not.

 

[Turbocat]

Every year Thompson states , I’ve learnt my lesson I’m going to play more ruckmen now and yet I doesn’t take long before he losses faith.
As I said I don’t know enough about Meesen but if he had the full bag of tricks I could see why he would get more game time than Blake or Chambers before him. Talent.
Blake looks to have no adaptability , he is a better version of Chambers
King in his younger, more mobile days could play forward. Not anymore
Ottens the most talented guy on our list but has very poor stamina. What he does is quality but I have to wonder how often he is doing it out of breathe.
A truly talented guy should be able to find a way to contribute elsewhere and with him struggling to kick the ball obviously Bomber has little faith in him.
All other players are expected be able break in to the side some how , maybe not in their preferred position yet ruckmen have to be ruckmen?

As far as 5 Ruckmen , surely if find real Key forwards we will not require 5-7 of them on the list. For instance , No McCarthy and add a Ruckman and I don’t see how we have lost balance

 

[DBAH0]

You’re joking surely? Stokes is almost 2 years older and is purely a goal sneak. Whereas Meesen has just turned 20, was rated as the best ruck prospect in the 2004 draft, and has come on in leaps and bounds this season. Meesen will eventually be one of the most complete ruckmen in the game; I suggest you start putting forward a more enhancing deal to the AFC if you wish to get Meesen.

Here's the query I have with this.

If he hasn't played any senior footy this season, how has he come in leaps and bounds? Why is someone like Ivan Maric instead getting first crack in the seniors out of the 2?

Mark Blake has played the best footy of his career so far this season, but would he be worth less than Meesen because in the brief games he's played at AFL Level he hasn't looked that great?

 

[Sanguinarius]

If he hasn't played any senior footy this season, how has he come in leaps and bounds? Why is someone like Ivan Maric instead getting first crack in the seniors out of the 2?

Meesen missed a bit of footy last year due to an injury. This season has been his first full season of SANFL footy. So Maric is ahead of him simply because he is slightly further down the development track. Considering this is his first full uninterupted season Meesen has done very well, cementing a spot in his SANFL side and the stepping up to be the number 1 ruckman.

Personally I dont want Meesen to go, I have no doubt in my mind that next season he will be given some time in the AFL (along with Maric), and the only thing that will keep him out of AFL is an injury. There have been times this season where I would have liked him played this season as a third ruckman or even inplace of Biglands.

 

[Asty]

Ottens the most talented guy on our list but has very poor stamina. What he does is quality but I have to wonder how often he is doing it out of breathe.

I think ottens will have more endurance next season remember he missed some of preseason last year (the early running part) because he had groin surgery and then he would have been trained as if he was going to play forward all year. This preseason you would think he will get the running in so they can play him in the ruck for more extended periods.

 

[- PC -]

St Kilda also should be after him as they really do need a good ruckman to back up kosi (blake and ackland are no good and aren't going to get any better).

St Kilda would be in the same position as we are ie premiership window etc and may chase Gardiner ...Meesen may be an afterthought or they may develop their kids. Kosi seems to be a better forward for them so they may opt for Gardiner via PSD and Meesen in a trade.

As to the rest I dont know the kids worth as much as some who have seen him live

 

[Mooney_d'King]

I don't think Adelaide will trade anyone. They put too much into their training methods to risk it getting out to any other clubs. So I say - forget about it altogether.

 

[GoSarge]

Kind of reminds me of the Nick Davis trade to Sydney. Collingwood thought he was worth a 1st rounder, but Sydney were never going to get that for him, so they had to settle for a 2nd round pick.

The only difference in that argument is that Nick wanted to go home to NSW and the only NSW team is Sydney, so Sydney were in the box seat.

Its different if Meesen wanted to go home to Victoria as there are 10 Vic based clubs who could all bid for his services. (unless he stipulates what club he wants to go to of course).

 

[DBAH0]

The only difference in that argument is that Nick wanted to go home to NSW and the only NSW team is Sydney, so Sydney were in the box seat.

Its different if Meesen wanted to go home to Victoria as there are 10 Vic based clubs who could all bid for his services. (unless he stipulates what club he wants to go to of course).

Well considering he is a Geelong Boy, if he was going to pick one of those 10 Victorian Clubs it would most likely be Geelong.

Otherwise he could go to Carlton in the PSD for nothing. You know the Blues would absolutely LOVE to have a good young ruckman just like him.

 

[Mooney_d'King]

The only difference in that argument is that Nick wanted to go home to NSW and the only NSW team is Sydney, so Sydney were in the box seat.

Its different if Meesen wanted to go home to Victoria as there are 10 Vic based clubs who could all bid for his services. (unless he stipulates what club he wants to go to of course).

Hey Sarge, is Adelaide actually considering letting him go or is it purely hypothetical? What about Craigie's super duper patented scientific training methods - does he want to let the cat out of that bag?

 

[jo172]

Hey Sarge, is Adelaide actually considering letting him go or is it purely hypothetical? What about Craigie's super duper patented scientific training methods - does he want to let the cat out of that bag?

He's the only player we've offered a new deal to who is yet to re-sign which is adding fuel to homesick rumours. Adelaide will not trade him unless he wants to go home.

Also if another club really wanted to find out any training methods it would probably be a lot easier to throw alot of money at one of the assistant coaches or managment then the players.

 

[Mooney_d'King]

He's the only player we've offered a new deal to who is yet to re-sign which is adding fuel to homesick rumours. Adelaide will not trade him unless he wants to go home.

Also if another club really wanted to find out any training methods it would probably be a lot easier to throw alot of money at one of the assistant coaches or managment then the players.

Fair enough, thanks for the update!

 

[GoSarge]

Hey Sarge, is Adelaide actually considering letting him go or is it purely hypothetical? What about Craigie's super duper patented scientific training methods - does he want to let the cat out of that bag?

Hiya mate, the club is definitely keen for him to stay and has offered a contract to him and/or his management.

Unfortunately every other 2007 required player has signed except Meesen and he cites he 'wants to wait til the end of the year to assess it'.

We've heard that before with Stenglein and Fergus