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Michael Voss

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Ford Fairlane said:
According to official AFL stats Port Adelaide is

3rd in average clearances
5th in average centre clearances
2nd in average stoppages
3rd in average tackles (where you would think the rolling midfield would be responsible for the largest proportion)

And that's despite Lobbe's average year. So what is this rapid fall from grace in midfield exactly based on?

Our problem has been far greater in giving the ball up after the hard work has been done.

I noticed the comment 'If' Voss is responsible, it's funny how the disclaimer is never mentioned when he is attacked for being a problem and that has gone on ever since this season has soured.

By the way Shaun Hart, you forgot to mention Hartlett's improved hardness as a mid. ;)
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With stats like that we should be much further up the ladder.
16th in marking forwards(If there is such a stat?)
 
Coobk001 said:
It's not about the clearances you win, it's about how many you win Vs how many the opposition win. See this stat:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2015&type=DA&sby=29&advv=Y

We are now ranked 12th in clearances. That's including a climb from being the 15th ranked clearance side just a few weeks ago.

We remain in the top couple in pure numbers because our games possess the most stoppages, hence why it is important to acknowledge our total V the opposition, and the fact we are poor in this area.
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Yes agree totally.

There was talk in the media a little while ago that it was a myth that we are a running team, since Port Adelaide games have the most stoppages and have the highest number of clearances in the league. But as always correlation does not imply causation. The Geelong game was a good example, we were first for clearances and they were last, and yet they beat us in that stat on the night, and had about 20 more clearances than their average. Opposition teams know they need to bottle the game up against us, and as an added bonus we are not good at them as evidenced by our clearance differential.

Here's hoping this is something that is identified as a major priority in the off-season in terms of both personnel and tactics.
 
Ford Fairlane said:
According to official AFL stats Port Adelaide is

3rd in average clearances
5th in average centre clearances
2nd in average stoppages
3rd in average tackles (where you would think the rolling midfield would be responsible for the largest proportion)

And that's despite Lobbe's average year. So what is this rapid fall from grace in midfield exactly based on?

Our problem has been far greater in giving the ball up after the hard work has been done.

I noticed the comment 'If' Voss is responsible, it's funny how the disclaimer is never mentioned when he is attacked for being a problem and that has gone on ever since this season has soured.

By the way Shaun Hart, you forgot to mention Hartlett's improved hardness as a mid. ;)
Click to expand...

I've been a detractor but credit where credit is due.
 

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Dalphonso said:
With stats like that we should be much further up the ladder.
16th in marking forwards(If there is such a stat?)
Click to expand...

Equal 10th (with Sydney) for marks inside 50. Hawthorn, Adelaide, West Coast the top 3.
 
Ford Fairlane said:
Equal 10th (with Sydney) for marks inside 50. Hawthorn, Adelaide, West Coast the top 3.
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Lol sydney forward coach should be sacked. That forward line with that stat? Lel.
 
Coobk001 said:
The raw numbers mean nothing, as stated in the other page, we are 12th in clearances. We shouldn't be letting raw numbers cloud a fair judgment.
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What's a fair judgement? How can we make a fair judgement when we don't know everything the club judges on?

Voss is blamed for all manner of ills this year. As for the comparative stats, that single stat is an average of 2 less clearances per game than our opponents. Has that decided our games this year? What is the correlation between winning clearance stats? Against Collingwood we lost the clearances by 10 but won the game. In the first showdown we lost clearances by 13 but won the match. Against West Coast we won clearance by 5 but lost the match.

There's so much more than clearances to being a successful midfield coach. The club would have access to a suite of measures that Voss would be measured against. If he doesn't measure up he will get the boot. But he will certainly be around nest year and he deserves the chance to build and reshape the midfield without being slammed for a bad season where a range of factors outside of his control have failed Port.

If we are talking single comparative stats Port being top of the average comparative clangers/match is a much more instructive indicator of where our season has gone south this year.

As you said the single stat of comparative clearances shows we've moved up from 15th in recent weeks so it could be he is improving on that measure as players get his message. And that's the point Hart is making.
 
Coobk001 said:
It's not about the clearances you win, it's about how many you win Vs how many the opposition win. See this stat:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2015&type=DA&sby=29&advv=Y

We are now ranked 12th in clearances. That's including a climb from being the 15th ranked clearance side just a few weeks ago.

We remain in the top couple in pure numbers because our games possess the most stoppages, hence why it is important to acknowledge our total V the opposition, and the fact we are poor in this area.
Click to expand...

That's a great stat!
 
Coobk001 said:
It's not about the clearances you win, it's about how many you win Vs how many the opposition win. See this stat:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2015&type=DA&sby=29&advv=Y

We are now ranked 12th in clearances. That's including a climb from being the 15th ranked clearance side just a few weeks ago.

We remain in the top couple in pure numbers because our games possess the most stoppages, hence why it is important to acknowledge our total V the opposition, and the fact we are poor in this area.
Click to expand...

Agreed, it's also about set ups, eg two opposition players coming off the back of the square with no direct opponent that has regularly cost goals, and the over the back goals where virtually every team has run the ball the length of the ground and scored from Power stoppages, from in or near our forward 50.

As for that 7th day bike rider Shaun Hart praising Voss, geez some people are gullible, it's called job justification, Hart reccomended the bloke for the job in the first place, so what else would he say.
But at least the bloke has FINALLY said something. :rolleyes:

Voss would have as much chance of scoring the bummer's job as we all have of winning x-lotto, and as for Hart's comments that he would turn down $750,000 plus to coach them, to stay on at Port for well under half of that - YEAH right!

If Arch and Sam Gray have improved because of Voss, why then has Brad Ebert gone backwards? ;)

Yours sincerely
Rin Tin Tin :cool:
 
Last year we were 3rd in contested possesion differential and 7th in clearance differential. 2 weeks ago we were 16th in both. With only GC, Brisbane and Essendon behind us. So much for no major change in the game plan. I know we've been put under the microscope mainly with our defensive midfield stoppages but we still don't win the 50-50's, even on gut feel.

We've lost the extreme hands under pressure and the composure with the ball coming out of stoppages. Last year these two things we were nearly AFL best at.
 
Ford Fairlane said:
What's a fair judgement? How can we make a fair judgement when we don't know everything the club judges on?

Voss is blamed for all manner of ills this year. As for the comparative stats, that single stat is an average of 2 less clearances per game than our opponents. Has that decided our games this year? What is the correlation between winning clearance stats? Against Collingwood we lost the clearances by 10 but won the game. In the first showdown we lost clearances by 13 but won the match. Against West Coast we won clearance by 5 but lost the match.

There's so much more than clearances to being a successful midfield coach. The club would have access to a suite of measures that Voss would be measured against. If he doesn't measure up he will get the boot. But he will certainly be around nest year and he deserves the chance to build and reshape the midfield without being slammed for a bad season where a range of factors outside of his control have failed Port.

If we are talking single comparative stats Port being top of the average comparative clangers/match is a much more instructive indicator of where our season has gone south this year.

As you said the single stat of comparative clearances shows we've moved up from 15th in recent weeks so it could be he is improving on that measure as players get his message. And that's the point Hart is making.
Click to expand...

Interesting we haven't heard from our friend port_always in a while. Seemed to be here every day a few months ago spreading "inside info" about dissent in the ranks over Voss, like some agent provocateur. Job done, off he goes not to be heard from again.
 
I can't find how to understand the abbreviations on the footy wire site, but it looks like we're number 1 for clangers. Doesn't matter if you can get the ball if you can't use it.
 

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I should say, I like voss. Don't want him going anywhere yet I'm not even sold it's him causing the breakdown. However with his role mentioned in the thread title, he, Carr and Hinkley deserve some questions asked of them for the drop away this year. He may have been one that got carried away with expectation but from what I've seen of him, he won't next year. He seems way to proud to accept what's been dealt up this year, even if it's undue media speculation.

But to argue that the midfield has been good this year I don't buy it.
 
Ford Fairlane said:
According to official AFL stats Port Adelaide is

3rd in average clearances
5th in average centre clearances
2nd in average stoppages
3rd in average tackles (where you would think the rolling midfield would be responsible for the largest proportion)

And that's despite Lobbe's average year. So what is this rapid fall from grace in midfield exactly based on?

Our problem has been far greater in giving the ball up after the hard work has been done.

I noticed the comment 'If' Voss is responsible, it's funny how the disclaimer is never mentioned when he is attacked for being a problem and that has gone on ever since this season has soured.

By the way Shaun Hart, you forgot to mention Hartlett's improved hardness as a mid. ;)
Click to expand...
When I watch our games it is often that last kick into the forward line that seems to hurt us time and time again whereas at the opposite end of the ground well, so who is to blame for that I wonder? I believe Voss is bringing more to our team than many think. If it's developing the hardness of those players who are willing to buy in then that is a great thing. Adding Bassett to the coaching group will be a plus. Wonder who will take our forwards?
 
Ford Fairlane said:
What's a fair judgement? How can we make a fair judgement when we don't know everything the club judges on?

Voss is blamed for all manner of ills this year. As for the comparative stats, that single stat is an average of 2 less clearances per game than our opponents. Has that decided our games this year? What is the correlation between winning clearance stats? Against Collingwood we lost the clearances by 10 but won the game. In the first showdown we lost clearances by 13 but won the match. Against West Coast we won clearance by 5 but lost the match.

There's so much more than clearances to being a successful midfield coach. The club would have access to a suite of measures that Voss would be measured against. If he doesn't measure up he will get the boot. But he will certainly be around nest year and he deserves the chance to build and reshape the midfield without being slammed for a bad season where a range of factors outside of his control have failed Port.

If we are talking single comparative stats Port being top of the average comparative clangers/match is a much more instructive indicator of where our season has gone south this year.

As you said the single stat of comparative clearances shows we've moved up from 15th in recent weeks so it could be he is improving on that measure as players get his message. And that's the point Hart is making.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I personally think Voss has zero to do with any degradation in performance. I'm just pointing out the fact that we aren't great in the contested ball stuff and it gives teams a head start that they've been able to use against us. I personally think it is a personnel issue down mainly to the fact Young and Moore haven't come on as hoped.

Ultimately as you say clearances are just part of the puzzle and not the be all and end all, but they do illustrate our ability to win those contests ain't as great as some other sides and the top teams in that list are, as you'd expect, the top teams on the ladder.

For mine I think we lost the 2nd showdown and the geelong game due to clearance dominance and what we are finding in general is that whilst the Bulldogs smashed us, even a side like the Bombers actually seems to find it easy to get on top of us in the midfield, be that in the clearances and contested ball or uncontested.
 
Us against the rest said:
Voss has now had 12 months to gel with the coaching group and players, 2016 the results should and imo will come. Hope we can snare Bassett too.
Click to expand...

If Basset comes in and Carr was to drop out, different dynamic and hard to apportion on anyone. I would assume with Basset coming our team defense will improve immensely, which has been our biggest issue.
 

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FallingLiefs said:
Lobbe hurts, because last year he was basically that big bodied mid helping Ollie block, tackle and knock some bodies around. Other than Lobbe's downfall I see no reason for the (at times) ineptitude of our whole midfield.
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Lobbe's still been doing that so not sure that can be attributed to Voss. He's averaging 0.8 less tackles a game, but has also had much elss ruck time compared to last year, so the figures are comparable. His issue has been in the actual art of ruckwork, not his defensive side.


Our issue for much of the year has been skills. A couple of weeks ago we were in the bottom 2-3 in just about every skill based stat around - kicking efficiency, turning stoppages into scores, defensive transition into inside 50s/scores, inside 50s/scores from kick ins. Again, I dont think this has to do with Voss.
 
Coobk001 said:
I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I personally think Voss has zero to do with any degradation in performance. I'm just pointing out the fact that we aren't great in the contested ball stuff and it gives teams a head start that they've been able to use against us. I personally think it is a personnel issue down mainly to the fact Young and Moore haven't come on as hoped.

Ultimately as you say clearances are just part of the puzzle and not the be all and end all, but they do illustrate our ability to win those contests ain't as great as some other sides and the top teams in that list are, as you'd expect, the top teams on the ladder.

For mine I think we lost the 2nd showdown and the geelong game due to clearance dominance and what we are finding in general is that whilst the Bulldogs smashed us, even a side like the Bombers actually seems to find it easy to get on top of us in the midfield, be that in the clearances and contested ball or uncontested.
Click to expand...

There are some very interesting stats in that table. Our drop off in contested possession differential indicates a fall in workrate which Ken highlighted in the Buldogs press conference.

Losing Ollie Wines for so many games has hurt our contested and clearance game too. Hoping Ah Chee gives us depth there. But I agree with missionpossible who thinks we need another elite mid.
 
To be fair to Voss - he spent 18 months/2 years outside of the AFL industry making a tv series about amateur footballers. 2016 will be the year to judge him.
What I don't like is Hart giving him credit for developing two fringe afl players without shining the light on the bleeding obvious: the deterioration of the form of Moore and Young & co. + the stoppage set ups that just don't work.
Boak and Gray have been brilliant this year - thanks goes to .... Travis and Robbie.
STATS, LIES and VIDEOTAPES
 
Ignoring stats completely and going on "feel" from watching every game and most live-

1. Our games have become increasingly congested- teams have learnt to stop us at the source- clearances

2. We have overpossessed the ball at clearances- even with first hands on the ball our series of handballs too often ends up with a player under pressure leading to a repeat stoppage

3. Unreliable forward set up- turnovers leave player with ball with no option further up the ground

4. Forwards playing behind too much- too often the quick or under pressure kick forward has found our forwards caught behind.

5. It looks like we are coached to play a very high risk/reward style at all set ups. When it works, we blow away all comers (including Hawthorn) but it is not playing the odds.

So for me, the blame lies with both the midfield and forward structures we've used this year.
 
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