Remove this Banner Ad

Coach Michael Voss - Stats, history, articles, videos

  • Thread starter Thread starter Aphrodite
  • Start date Start date
  • Tagged users Tagged users None

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

I understand people desire not not sack another coach. There are very valid reasons why it's not an ideal proposition.

There have been numerous success stories over the last decade of clubs sticking fat with their coach and turning things around. But each of these success stories have followed a narrative of a head coach, loved by the playing group, admitting fault, changing their tactics and messaging to suit the playing group they have, accepting guidance and supported by a very strong back of house football program.

Where it gets difficult for us is.... we don't have any of these things.
Our club is and has been run woefully for the last 20 years. It's all very grand to preach stability.. but stability only makes sense if you have the fundamentals in place to start off with.

Our problems are so multifaceted and run so deep that at times it is very hard to see light at the end of the tunnel.

Our on field problems are plain for all to see. The communication between the playing group and the coaching staff isn't working, which has led to confusion. Confusion leads to perceived pressure which leads to mistakes. Confidence and trust is shot to bits, and the cycle continues.

Our off field problems are even worse. The club is always caught between two worlds. We have had football departments dating back to even before the Swann focussed on the business side of things. A lot of this started with the club needing to find ways of paying off its historic debt, and have continued all the way through the redevelopments of IKON park. But great football clubs are run by great football minds first, and great businessmen second.
Growing the brand so much and so quickly always results in the same thing, and especially for Carlton. A huge and passionate fan and membership base who judge the team by results and the club by their footballing decisions.
The business people, being the way they are, get concerned to quickly about damage to the brand and make uneducated decisions. The sacking of Ratten for example, even the sacking of Bolton. The noise that led to the hiring of Teague.... But the one that sticks in my mind the most was after Neil Craig retired we decided not to replace his role and left Bolton, a genuinely genius footballing mind, but someone who needed support to evolve as a coach, hung out to dry.

And then there is the Carlton Alumni or mafia for want of a better term, and there very rich, very noisy and very powerful backers. Who despite not holding official positions of power within the club (except for Diesel, don't get me started on him. Love the player... but seriously!) still pull the strings in ways that very few, if any other clubs (maybe Essendon until this year) have to deal with.

The greatest problem with all this is, its no secret within football circles. Its a joke to other clubs. It's at the point now that we can't attract the type of people we need to get to the club. There is no doubt at all that if Clarkson believed he could implement the program he wanted, he would not of taken his sabbatical last year. (I know things have changed in that space, but I'm using it as a pre 2023 example). It is why someone like Hardwick would much prefer to go to Gold Coast or North Melbourne in the coming years than consider us.
We can only attract the people who are in the twilight of their careers and are more than happy to accept a huge boost to their retirement fund.

With all this being said, it doesn't change my opinion of the fact that I do not think Voss is the man to lead us out of it. For all his strengths as a player and a person, he is not and has never been a good or smart coach. He was an incredible leader on field in his actions. But you cannot do this from the coaches box. It is becoming visible that he is losing the playing group, they are completely devoid of confidence in the game plan and its leading to them being completely devoid of confidence in their own footballing abilities.

If and when the change is made, it needs to be complete. We cannot go through another review, sack a couple of people along the way yet leave the core operators of the club to continue along their merry dance of using our Football club as a rich man's play toy.

The AFL has come on leaps and bounds in the last 30 years and is now right up there with one of the most professional sports in the world. Yet at Carlton we still behave like its 1970. It's time for us to wake up and actually fix this systemic rot.
You like everyone are entitled to opinions. Some of them may be right and some wrong.
But they are not facts and I am sure not based on knowledge of the inner workings of the club and the league and its personnel, yet you write as if that is the case.
I mean for example how would you know what Hardwick might want or do? Or Clarkson, or anyone.
 
That it’s come to this, with the best list we’ve had in 20 years is just so sad.
It probably speaks to what we have had for 20 years if this current list is 'the best'. We have some very good top end talent right now, I'm not sure that we have a great list overall.
 
You could say they all failed for the same reason. They were not supported well with the staff they had around them. Poor list from poor recruiting. No good assistant coaches. Not structuring the football department properly.

If we sack Voss we are compounding the biggest issue we have. We are adding to it. The biggest issue we have is that we can't get quality people to come work for us because we have a reputation.

Carlton is an organisation that offers poor job security. It's known for sacking it's coaches if it does not have success and it rarely has success.

Anyone any good will be sort after by most clubs, they aren't going to chose us over the better more supportive clubs such as Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond etc.

The question is how long will it take to rid ourselves of this stigma and reputation and prove to the football community that we are a great and supportive organisation to work for? The answer to this question is the answer to your question and I think it's going to be quite some time.

We sack Voss, we are making the thing that is wrong with Carlton a whole lot worse.

I still think the most likely course of action is a revamping of the football department around Voss.

The rest of the season could get very ugly though, with each loss there is more chance of players becoming disenchanted and Voss losing the players.
 

Log in to remove this Banner Ad

I
When they did the assistant coach clean out, every Carlton supporter was just about in fierce agreement as to how bad our assistants were. Blind Freddie could’ve seen the immense value of attracting / poaching the best assistants.
thought Barker was bad …. sheesh we have gotten worse!
 
I hate the idea of sacking another coach.....again, I really want to see Voss being able to have multiple plans and approaches on who we play each week. However this year he hasn't done that, its the same flat footed, boring and uninventive gameplan every week. There's the baffling decisions to play Kennedy back when he is one of our best extractors, can take strong mark and kick a goal, to play Doc in the midfield when we are crying out for his leadership off half back and to keep playing Durdin, Motlop E Curnow etc when they have shown next to nothing all year. Dow may come in and prove he doesn't belong at AFL level but at least try something, it cant get any worse.

Voss isn't smart enough or has any gameday nous. He either goes or next year we appoint someone such as L Cameron or Pyke etc to oversee him and clear out the assistants and get experienced ones in like Caracella. Id love to see Mark Williams at our club. If not then get rid of Voss, he on his own with his current set up isn't working and as such should not continue.

His presser's are getting worse, trying to find positives and platitudes where there are none, we should have rolled Sydney with their outs easily. That was inexcusable.

Furthermore, cut off ties with the dinosaurs such as Matheson, I think his son or nephew is on the board. I'd rather the fans dug deep and contribute than take his pokies $, I certainly would. I've got serious reservations with Sayers as well. I think the whole area's above the players need a thorough clear out, then we look at the list and cut loose the all those that have apparent potential but rarely show it or are injured. Cuningham, Marchbank, Martin, McGovern, Philp, O'Brien and go after a veteran of success that can play for 2-3 years and has some serious mongrel and on field leadership, who will fly the flag when one of our kids gets hit and show frustration on field and then guide the team on stopping opposition runs or giving licence to run and back ourselves.

Ill keep and renew both mine and my sons membership and we'll keep going to games this year but I want to see serious change at the end of it and if Voss has to go so be it.
 
When they did the assistant coach clean out, every Carlton supporter was just about in fierce agreement as to how bad our assistants were. Blind Freddie could’ve seen the immense value of attracting / poaching the best assistants.
What I meant was, If you are going to choose a new head coach, then don't pick one that is unlikely to attract good assistants.(this could have been researched)
I'm sure we searched for good new assistants. But we either didn't pick the right ones or had to settle for lesser help that were prepared to work for Carlton.
 
Last edited:
Love the post Forty3 . Challenging times for all supporters and it's disappointing to be here.

Can I ask how you feel about Voss compared to Hardwick's early years? From memory Richmond had a tough chat - about how he needed to delegate the strategy and game plan as his tactical ability was identified as a major weaknes. Again from memory they told him he wouldn't be continuing as coach if he didn't open up and embrace the support (I.e. it's not to be some token acceptance but genuinely incorporated into the method, or there's the door)

My thoughts are, if that's how it played out (and it obviously worked), why not Voss? We absolutely pantsed Richmond for years on end, even the first few under Hardwick. They still looked like a rabble under him until they got their whole club in shape.

Much has been made of the chats had with Hardwick and the changes he made to his coaching and team tactics. I'm not sure if its tall poppy syndrome, or a general dislike many other club supporters have for Richmond, but the narrative seems to be that he had very little involvement in evolution of the Richmond Football club and game style, and just moved into a figure head role. This wasn't the case at all. Yes he did have to learn to trust and include other opinions more and became a lot more open to a group coaching environment. But he was still very much at the forefront of the change.

The same could work with Voss, I can't tell you it categorically won't. Although I have my doubts based largely on Voss' personal coaching history. One thing Hardwick had on his side was he was a first time senior coach, another was a very strong support from the playing group.
Voss, having been through a very similar thing with his time in Brisbane, will always have those question marks hanging over his head.
 
A strong portion of the blame can be attributed to setups, gameplan, tactics, which is coaching. Even disposal in general play if players are being asked to bite off too much

But blaming coaching for poor goal kicking, just no!

There’s a ripple effect. He’s not directly responsible for goal kicking. But the players being low on confidence due to game plan and/or other factors impacts upon on goal kicking performance. He’s responsible for ensuring player mindset is in the best pace it can be. If he can’t do that he needs to put his hand up and say we need to invest more heavily in sport psychologists.

When things aren’t working he’s the big boss. He’s responsible for doing what it takes to improve performance or seeking out those who can help him achieve that. It shouldn’t simply be comments like ‘we’ll back in Harry’ to work his way through it. It should be let’s get a goal kicking coach. Let’s get another sports psychologist. Lets work on our ball movement and leading patterns. Let’s get to work on fixing these issues. All the warning signs were there in the preseason to be honest.

That’s my biggest gripe with him. His job is on the line and he’s still refusing to switch things up. It shows rigid inflexibility and is the sign of a poor coach. In any other circumstance I’d be all for us boosting those around him and giving him more of a chance. But he’s not shown me anything to think he can get the best out of this group. The players are regressing under him and in my opinion it’s some kind of noble virtue madness to keep running with something you know is a mistake with the blind hope things will turn around. Plus if we boosted those around him what’s to say he’d actually take on board their ideas.. he seems fixated on his way or the highway mentality. Would take a seismic shift in mentality for him to keep his job post year at this point.

Player confidence. Player confusion. Player skills and execution. Lack of structure. Lack of maximising our assets and playing to our strengths. Lack of flexibility. Stubborn team selections. Putting players in unsuitable positions. Players regressing. All of those are huge issues and all are directly on the coach or indirectly as a result of coaching techniques. If as others have said he has lost the players or is starting to, there’s no coming back from that. Those responsible for hiring him need to put their hand up and own it and right the ship without being afraid that admitting that also puts them in the firing line. I don’t see the need for them to also fall on the sword but our off field stuff needs significant improvement.

I realise I lost my way and went off on a tangent away from simply goal kicking here but apparently I had a lot to get off my chest.
 
Last edited:
You like everyone are entitled to opinions. Some of them may be right and some wrong.
But they are not facts and I am sure not based on knowledge of the inner workings of the club and the league and its personnel, yet you write as if that is the case.
I mean for example how would you know what Hardwick might want or do? Or Clarkson, or anyone.
I appreciate your feed back.
This was not posted as a blumour, rumour, fact or fan fiction.
Merely my musings from the information that I have previously been and currently am privy to.
Agree with me, disagree with me, like, block me. Its all up to you.
As for you, I'd be very interested to know how you can categorically say "I am sure not based on knowledge of the inner workings of the club and the league and its personnel"... for as far as I am aware, you have absolutely no idea who I am, what I do or who I speak to.
I mean for example what did I have for breakfast? Or lunch, or what am I planning on having for dinner?
Considering you call me out for post not facts and having no idea or knowledge.. I assume you must know everything?
 
In what fantasy land do you live? The club - starting with am email to all members from the President - have all been saying "it's not working and nobody is happy" for the last 2 weeks.

I'm all for challenging the club to do better but this is blatant disregard of facts that have been articulated by the club in the public domain.
So u think that Voss is going to remain our coach if/when we continue to lose?
How many coaches have been replaced after the club put out a statement saying “they have our full support” think you will find at some point pretty much everyone one of them!
 
So you know he refuses to acknowledge our issues and hasn’t made any changes, even they have been visible

Or perhaps you are framing what you want in regards to selection with other aspects
Yes I know, I can see it week in & week out with selection, game day positioning, his own words during press conferences etc
Don’t know everyone is getting so up in arms about- he’s a proven great footballer & captain, that doesn’t mean he can coach - all the evidence is showing that he’s not very good at it.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

I appreciate your feed back.
This was not posted as a blumour, rumour, fact or fan fiction.
Merely my musings from the information that I have previously been and currently am privy to.
Agree with me, disagree with me, like, block me. Its all up to you.
As for you, I'd be very interested to know how you can categorically say "I am sure not based on knowledge of the inner workings of the club and the league and its personnel"... for as far as I am aware, you have absolutely no idea who I am, what I do or who I speak to.
I mean for example what did I have for breakfast? Or lunch, or what am I planning on having for dinner?
Considering you call me out for post not facts and having no idea or knowledge.. I assume you must know everything?
Why would I block you mate?
Nobody knows whos who here I assume. But I am Sgt Schultz. I know nothing, except that I am sick of losing.
And I recommend the steak.
 
I appreciate your feed back.
This was not posted as a blumour, rumour, fact or fan fiction.
Merely my musings from the information that I have previously been and currently am privy to.
Agree with me, disagree with me, like, block me. Its all up to you.
As for you, I'd be very interested to know how you can categorically say "I am sure not based on knowledge of the inner workings of the club and the league and its personnel"... for as far as I am aware, you have absolutely no idea who I am, what I do or who I speak to.
I mean for example what did I have for breakfast? Or lunch, or what am I planning on having for dinner?
Considering you call me out for post not facts and having no idea or knowledge.. I assume you must know everything?
Thanks for sharing you insights, we are all frustrated & disappointed with how the season has evolved and no immediate signs of change or improvement.

Like yourself l am not at all convinced Vossy has the capability of getting the ship back on track.
Too many quality players looking well below their capabilities which is not reflecting well on the entire coaching group .
 
I love the argument that we just need to surround him with better people with more tactical nous - that is straight up saying he’s not good enough at it to do the job well himself.
Further more, it’s saying he’s not getting the best out of the coaching group.
So not only is he not getting the best out of the players, he’s not getting that from his staff either- how the **** is that an argument to “stick fat” & keep him?
 
I appreciate your feed back.
This was not posted as a blumour, rumour, fact or fan fiction.
Merely my musings from the information that I have previously been and currently am privy to.
Agree with me, disagree with me, like, block me. Its all up to you.
As for you, I'd be very interested to know how you can categorically say "I am sure not based on knowledge of the inner workings of the club and the league and its personnel"... for as far as I am aware, you have absolutely no idea who I am, what I do or who I speak to.
I mean for example what did I have for breakfast? Or lunch, or what am I planning on having for dinner?
Considering you call me out for post not facts and having no idea or knowledge.. I assume you must know everything?
I have no idea who you may be, either, but I do know from your previous postings that you are privy to information that very, very few posters have. The important thing is, is Voss the coach that will take us forward?
To me, a good coach will have these qualities among others:

is respected by players
can admit his faults and mistakes
seeks feedback
listens to advice and can accept guidance
is flexible enough to change tactics
can take risks and can think outside the box
implement a game plan that suits the players he has.

If Voss has most of those qualities then great, and I say, let's ride out this rough patch.
If not, we need a new coach ASAP, and if we don't get one, we will be just kicking the can down the road.
 
Most Carlton supporters couldn't tell you who the assistants are.
And those of us here that can, well we wouldnt have a clue if they're any good if we are honest. All this talk here in our little Bf world is just based on results not on any superior understanding.

IMG_0206.jpeg
 

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

I understand people desire not not sack another coach. There are very valid reasons why it's not an ideal proposition.

There have been numerous success stories over the last decade of clubs sticking fat with their coach and turning things around. But each of these success stories have followed a narrative of a head coach, loved by the playing group, admitting fault, changing their tactics and messaging to suit the playing group they have, accepting guidance and supported by a very strong back of house football program.

Where it gets difficult for us is.... we don't have any of these things.
Our club is and has been run woefully for the last 20 years. It's all very grand to preach stability.. but stability only makes sense if you have the fundamentals in place to start off with.

Our problems are so multifaceted and run so deep that at times it is very hard to see light at the end of the tunnel.

Our on field problems are plain for all to see. The communication between the playing group and the coaching staff isn't working, which has led to confusion. Confusion leads to perceived pressure which leads to mistakes. Confidence and trust is shot to bits, and the cycle continues.

Our off field problems are even worse. The club is always caught between two worlds. We have had football departments dating back to even before the Swann focussed on the business side of things. A lot of this started with the club needing to find ways of paying off its historic debt, and have continued all the way through the redevelopments of IKON park. But great football clubs are run by great football minds first, and great businessmen second.
Growing the brand so much and so quickly always results in the same thing, and especially for Carlton. A huge and passionate fan and membership base who judge the team by results and the club by their footballing decisions.
The business people, being the way they are, get concerned to quickly about damage to the brand and make uneducated decisions. The sacking of Ratten for example, even the sacking of Bolton. The noise that led to the hiring of Teague.... But the one that sticks in my mind the most was after Neil Craig retired we decided not to replace his role and left Bolton, a genuinely genius footballing mind, but someone who needed support to evolve as a coach, hung out to dry.

And then there is the Carlton Alumni or mafia for want of a better term, and there very rich, very noisy and very powerful backers. Who despite not holding official positions of power within the club (except for Diesel, don't get me started on him. Love the player... but seriously!) still pull the strings in ways that very few, if any other clubs (maybe Essendon until this year) have to deal with.

The greatest problem with all this is, its no secret within football circles. Its a joke to other clubs. It's at the point now that we can't attract the type of people we need to get to the club. There is no doubt at all that if Clarkson believed he could implement the program he wanted, he would not of taken his sabbatical last year. (I know things have changed in that space, but I'm using it as a pre 2023 example). It is why someone like Hardwick would much prefer to go to Gold Coast or North Melbourne in the coming years than consider us.
We can only attract the people who are in the twilight of their careers and are more than happy to accept a huge boost to their retirement fund.

With all this being said, it doesn't change my opinion of the fact that I do not think Voss is the man to lead us out of it. For all his strengths as a player and a person, he is not and has never been a good or smart coach. He was an incredible leader on field in his actions. But you cannot do this from the coaches box. It is becoming visible that he is losing the playing group, they are completely devoid of confidence in the game plan and its leading to them being completely devoid of confidence in their own footballing abilities.

If and when the change is made, it needs to be complete. We cannot go through another review, sack a couple of people along the way yet leave the core operators of the club to continue along their merry dance of using our Football club as a rich man's play toy.

The AFL has come on leaps and bounds in the last 30 years and is now right up there with one of the most professional sports in the world. Yet at Carlton we still behave like its 1970. It's time for us to wake up and actually fix this systemic rot.
I'm not privy to any inside info from the footy club, but from the outside looking in it's become increasingly obvious that the problems are deep. Fully agree that it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Assuming we're as fundamentally broken as a footy club as you suggest, how does it follow that sacking the coach is the right option in this situation?

We can't attract competent people, we've got wrong people in all areas of the footy club, we've got external influences who treat the club as their personal play thing.

All things being equal, who would succeed in this environment? Clarko avoided us, you suggest Dimma won't consider us, internal politics scared Ross away. Even if we did attract someone of that calibre, what hope would they have with all the baggage that comes with the job?

Nevermind the endemic failure of the footy club, the lack of seasoned and resilient players who've experienced even an iota of success.

For all his perceived faults, what we have in Voss is a man who is incredibly hungry, exudes integrity, is one of the best leaders in the industry and could very well be a stabilising influence at the footy club. Not bad traits to have at a time like this.

Compare that to Teague who crumpled under the pressure and started taking potshots at certain players and the club.

Changing everything all at once is akin to the scorched earth rebuild policy that we've undertaken. When has it ever worked?

Instead of throwing out the coach with the bathwater, keep him in the role while we go to work addressing the fundamental issues that have us where we are. Go to work on generational failure within the playing group, go to work on the lack of stability in our coaching appointments, bring in a competent director of coaching, bring in a strong football manager, change the focus from the business to our core business of winning games of footy. Get rid of the external influencers that have for too long controlled the fortunes of our footy club.

Supplement Voss with the best assistants from successful systems that we can attract given the circumstances. Insulate the playing group and coaching group while we fix the multitude of other problems and bring the club into the 21st century.

Voss might not be the coach that sees us to 17, but he could very well be the coach that gets us through this next phase and keeps the playing group intact while we get the rest of our house in order.
 
I'm not privy to any inside info from the footy club, but from the outside looking in it's become increasingly obvious that the problems are deep. Fully agree that it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Assuming we're as fundamentally broken as a footy club as you suggest, how does it follow that sacking the coach is the right option in this situation?

We can't attract competent people, we've got wrong people in all areas of the footy club, we've got external influences who treat the club as their personal play thing.

All things being equal, who would succeed in this environment? Clarko avoided us, you suggest Dimma won't consider us, internal politics scared Ross away. Even if we did attract someone of that calibre, what hope would they have with all the baggage that comes with the job?

Nevermind the endemic failure of the footy club, the lack of seasoned and resilient players who've experienced even an iota of success.

For all his perceived faults, what we have in Voss is a man who is incredibly hungry, exudes integrity, is one of the best leaders in the industry and could very well be a stabilising influence at the footy club. Not bad traits to have at a time like this.

Compare that to Teague who crumpled under the pressure and started taking potshots at certain players and the club.

Changing everything all at once is akin to the scorched earth rebuild policy that we've undertaken. When has it ever worked?

Instead of throwing out the coach with the bathwater, keep him in the role while we go to work addressing the fundamental issues that have us where we are. Go to work on generational failure within the playing group, go to work on the lack of stability in our coaching appointments, bring in a competent director of coaching, bring in a strong football manager, change the focus from the business to our core business of winning games of footy. Get rid of the external influencers that have for too long controlled the fortunes of our footy club.

Supplement Voss with the best assistants from successful systems that we can attract given the circumstances. Insulate the playing group and coaching group while we fix the multitude of other problems and bring the club into the 21st century.

Voss might not be the coach that sees us to 17, but he could very well be the coach that gets us through this next phase and keeps the playing group intact while we get the rest of our house in order.
100%
 
While I am not in favour of getting rid of another coach not sacking Voss just because we dont want to sack another coach is dumb if he is the biggest part of a problem. Not saying that's the case but we need to ignore history and deal with the situation on it's merits whichever way we go.

Many were calling for Port to sack Ken Hinkley last season, and look at them this year (touchwood the season is barely half way through to be fai

Most clubs these days don't sack/replace their coach after one bad/disappointing season, and this is only Voss's second season at the club.

The fundamental issue I have is sacking coaches has not really worked for us in the past 20 years, maybe it's time we tried something different and backed our current incumbent in and provide him with the people and resources he needs to right the ship.

It is arguable as well that our list needs some tinkering/renovations to it, so is it really necessary to change the coach if that is the scenario facing us ?

Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions of course, my own personal belief is that if we want to change our culture and bring some stability and continuity, we should back Vossy in for 2024 (and beyond)

Aside from anything, 2 years in the job is probably not enough time to ascertain whether a coach is a good fit for your club or not (unless you appoint someone like Neeld or Noble) in my opinion.
 
Say we sack Voss, I don’t know if we should or shouldn’t.
Do we really trust the club will make the right decision choosing the next coach?
Track record says no.
I agree, it's quite easy with hindsight to see when things fail, but much harder to make good decisions when they count.
People quote that everything's apples except for a few wayward shots at goal, but watching the game and the player's body language tells a different story.(I'd love to hear some feedback from the players)

If things don't turn 180 degrees in the next 6 matches, then tough calls need to be made.(not wait another 9 months)
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Back
Top Bottom