Strategy Mids work in defence

[Old Spice]

Around the National Draft there was some discussion of the list here in terms of what was needed and types of players. Someone noticed on Hine's recruitment board that the mids were listed as either mid-forwards or mid-defenders.

I don't know if there has been a change, but it seems like Swan and Sidebottom are getting a lot more ball and assisting the backline to release. Pendlebury gets back there a lot too. It's noticeable that Elliot as a small forward has got back there a couple of times also.

Just reading Dale Tapping's review of the VFL side I noticed he made specific reference to Adams' defensive transition work.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-30/tappings-vfl-player-review

13. Taylor Adams

Statistics: 13 kicks, 5 marks, 13 handballs, 26 disposals, 6 clearances, 2 inside 50s, 1 rebound 50, 2 tackles
Dale Tapping Says: Solid again. Physical around the ball and really does give us first use with his intensity at the contest. Some of his defensive transition work was really pleasing for him and the team. He’s playing good footy

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-30/tappings-vfl-player-review

Is the idea to have every mid going forward and back so that the distinction between mid-fwd/mid-def is obliterated?

I can see in terms of recruiting you might want to identify mids who can convert on the scoreboard but are we looking for defensive and forward competency before you get a game?

 

[jonbe54]

Around the National Draft there was some discussion of the list here in terms of what was needed and types of players. Somewhat noticed on Hine's board that the mids were listed as either mid-forwards or mid-defenders.

I don't know if there has been a change, but it seems like Swan and Sidebottom are getting a lot more ball and assisting the backline to release. Pendlebury gets back there a lot too. It's noticeable that Elliot as a small forward has got back there a couple of times also.

Just reading Dale Tapping's review of the VFL side I noticed he made specific reference to Adams' defensive transition work.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-30/tappings-vfl-player-review



http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-30/tappings-vfl-player-review

Is the idea to have every mid going forward and back so that the distinction between mid-fwd/mid-def is obliterated?

I can see in terms of recruiting you might want to identify mids who can convert on the scoreboard but are we looking for defensive and forward competency before you get a game?

We do seem to have drafted for multi positional players with our talls lately, this could be our next attempt to get the jump on the opposition.

Just have key position players who maintain their positions (although Reid and White are looking likely exceptions to this) and have the rest of the midfield / flankers move around the ground at need or to attempt to give a zone superiority in numbers when we have the ball.

 

[Scodog10]

Our new game plan definitely relies on - Rebound 50's coming from the midfield, much improved two-way running

I've noticed this season that our mids have been getting back to help the back line all the time and watching the last few games a second time backed this up. Then I checked the numbers and they are revealing to say the least (2014 stats quoted first):

Lumumba
Rebound 50's 5.0 avg (7th in the league) vs. 3.0 (57th) in 2013
Inside 50's 4.0 vs. 3.1 in 2013

Swan
Rebound 50's 3.3 (38th) vs. 2.1 in 2013
Inside 50's 3.5 vs. 5.2 in 2013

Sidebottom
Rebound 50's 3.2 (41st) vs. 1.6 in 2013
Inside 50's 3.3 vs. 2.5 in 2013

Beams
Rebound 50's 2.2 vs. 1.0 in 2013
Inside 50's 3.8 vs. 4.4 in 2013

Pendlebury
Rebound 50's 2.0 vs. 1.7 in 2013
Inside 50's 4.0 vs. 4.1 in 2013

Young
Rebound 50's 3.3 (38th) vs. 2.5 in 2013 (only 2 matches)

Ball
Rebound 50's 1.3 vs. 0.9 in 2013
Inside 50's 2.2 vs. 3.0 in 2013

2014 R50 leaders
Lumumba, Langdon, Swan, Young, Sidebottom, Maxwell, Beams

2013 R50 leaders*
Shaw, Russell (only 9 games), Lumumba, Williams, Maxwell, Seedsman
* Young and Johnson excluded for playing only 2 and 3 games respectively.

League-wide in 2013 apart from Lumumba at 57th not a single one of our other mids could crack the Top 100 in Rebound 50's (Swan was the best at 143rd). From a team perspective none of our gun mids could make the Top 6 last year.

BUT 2014 is a completely different story. Every single one of them has upped their Rebound 50 numbers, some significantly. Look at the numbers for Sidebottom, Lumumba, Swan, and Beams Apart from Maxy the other 5 of the top 6 are now mids.

On the flipside their Inside 50 numbers are all down although overall nowhere near as much as the increase in Rebound 50's.

That shows the mids are running defensively MUCH better than last year, helping out the back line immensely, but also still work forward as well. Don't think anyone can accuse them of being front runners this season.

Also Davoren and the new fitness program seems to have facilitated and supported this style too.
Definitely exciting to see this new game plan unfold

EDIT: Langdon should also be in our Top 6 R50 guys this year (14th overall in the league).

This should provide tangible evidence for you Spice. Pied put together some great stuff in the gameplan thread

Knightmare has also been banging on about mid-def rotations for some time (citing Essendon as the leader of that race with the likes of Gleeson, Edwards, the Merrets and Dalgleish) and in Seedsman, Scharanberg and Langdon we seem to be addressing it with size to boot!

 

[suspect footskills]

I think one of the main reasons our mids are getting further back is our heavy use of handball out of the back line.
Coming out of defence using handball requires that we have the numbers so as to provide more options to pass to.
When kicking out of defence this wasnt a necessity so our mids were able to stay further up field.

 

[Knightmare]

This should provide tangible evidence for you Spice. Pied put together some great stuff in the gameplan thread

Knightmare has also been banging on about mid-def rotations for some time (citing Essendon as the leader of that race with the likes of Gleeson, Edwards, the Merrets and Dalgleish) and in Seedsman, Scharanberg and Langdon we seem to be addressing it with size to boot!

They're my three who give me some hope we might have some def/mids. Seedsman will be an outside only mid. But it's not out of the question Scharenberg and/or Langdon could rotate onto the ball irregularly.

We just need to see them play the role first before we know they can do it at AFL level.

In the immediate a David Mundy would be someone who could play this role but Scharenberg and Langdon are another couple of seasons away from being able to step into the midfield even for limited minutes.

 

[jonbe54]

It's interesting now that the wheel has turned that we no longer spurn the use of handball chains in defense. Just 4 short seasons ago we used the press to destroy teams trying to handball or short pass out of defense.

But things have changed and coaches have learned to nullify (to an extent) such tactics whilst piggybacking a springboard style of blitzkreig attack coming out of defense.

With drafting strategies that target quality ball users in the back half and the rotation of mids through the back as well as the forward lines, positional play has become more and more outdated with a move toward gridiron type team plays.

The game is evolving yet again, and bucks has put us in the spearhead.

Exciting times ahead.

 

[mike123]

Anyone else seeing Marley Williams being a Def/Mid?

In the NAB challenge he had a few good stints on ball.

 

[Old Spice]

They're my three who give me some hope we might have some def/mids. Seedsman will be an outside only mid. But it's not out of the question Scharenberg and/or Langdon could rotate onto the ball irregularly.

We just need to see them play the role first before we know they can do it at AFL level.

In the immediate a David Mundy would be someone who could play this role but Scharenberg and Langdon are another couple of seasons away from being able to step into the midfield even for limited minutes.

My point isn't about who can be recruited as mid-def or mid-fwd but if the plan is to obliterate the specialised field of mid-def/mid-fwds and just have a bunch of mids that will run between the arcs and be equally competent at both ends.

Some will be better than others at one end or the other when they are bought in, but the development is about dashing mid-fwds becoming more defensively minded and mid-def becoming more attacking.

The latter is more easily said than done, but the mid-fwd attackers can certainly learn and come to appreciate defence more. If a KPF can learn from taking a spell in defence, that mantra crosses over to a mid who can learn to understand the needs of that position.

 

[Bard]

Anyone else seeing Marley Williams being a Def/Mid?

In the NAB challenge he had a few good stints on ball.

I think the general consensus is that he'll be a permanent midfielder in a couple of seasons time.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Around the National Draft there was some discussion of the list here in terms of what was needed and types of players. Someone noticed on Hine's recruitment board that the mids were listed as either mid-forwards or mid-defenders.

I don't know if there has been a change, but it seems like Swan and Sidebottom are getting a lot more ball and assisting the backline to release. Pendlebury gets back there a lot too. It's noticeable that Elliot as a small forward has got back there a couple of times also.

Just reading Dale Tapping's review of the VFL side I noticed he made specific reference to Adams' defensive transition work.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-30/tappings-vfl-player-review



http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-30/tappings-vfl-player-review

Is the idea to have every mid going forward and back so that the distinction between mid-fwd/mid-def is obliterated?

I can see in terms of recruiting you might want to identify mids who can convert on the scoreboard but are we looking for defensive and forward competency before you get a game?

I believe the idea is that our mids start pushing back since they weren't doing so all of last season.

Our mids simply weren't working hard enough. Notice that this year our HORRIBLY inexperienced defence seems to look better than last year's Premiership defence? The difference? The mids are going back to help them. Last year's defence consisted of:

- Brown
- Shaw
- Reid (for most of it)
- Harry (for some of it)
- Williams
- Seedsman
- Maxwell

This year's:

- Keefe
- Toovey
- Maxwell
- Langdon
- Frost
- Fasolo

Yet this yea'rs defence is playing better despite on paper looking far worse. The midfielders have made all the difference.

 

[Knightmare]

My point isn't about who can be recruited as mid-def or mid-fwd but if the plan is to obliterate the specialised field of mid-def/mid-fwds and just have a bunch of mids that will run between the arcs and be equally competent at both ends.

Some will be better than others at one end or the other when they are bought in, but the development is about dashing mid-fwds becoming more defensively minded and mid-def becoming more attacking.

The latter is more easily said than done, but the mid-fwd attackers can certainly learn and come to appreciate defence more. If a KPF can learn from taking a spell in defence, that mantra crosses over to a mid who can learn to understand the needs of that position.

The only post I noticed and was responding to was the post scodog mentioned me in.

On your idea though.

I expect clubs are looking for a combination of mids, mid/fwd and mid/def and a relatively even distribution of all three types.
For us long term it might look something like as an example:
Mid: x3 (say Pendlebury, Beams, Macaffer)
Mid/Fwd: x3
Mid/Def: x3

I don't see pure onballers becoming extinct. But clubs are certainly and you're right to pick up on this trend, they are reducing the number of midfield only types.

Clubs when talking midfield only types will likely only use their elite midfielders on the ball for close to all their minutes - unless they are Dangerfield/Cotchin/Ablett special up forward because at the end of the day your elite players, they're the guys you want around the ball and involved in the most players possible.

Other than those elite onballers I think you're right, clubs will want guys who can go on the ball but then also play option positions and play other positions well as you're seeing with Hawthorn who are demanding all their players can play multiple positions and work interchangeably.

On key position players some might learn to play at the other end, my preference instead though is that many can learn to play on the ball or on a wing as opposed to other ends. At their relative height advantage at those positions if they can do the same things. It's a huge point of difference and something that could really make a different to winning if they can do it well.

 

[sr36]

All midfielders are meant to run both ways.

But in terms of drafting, most players drafted are midfielders because at all levels the best players genreally play in the midfield. teh AFL flanks and pockets are filled by blokes who would play in the midfield at lower levels. I suggest that the reason for Hine having a mid-forward and mid-defender is that he is drafting a balance of mids - some who can be developed to play as forwards in the AFL and some who can be developed into defenders at AFL level.

 

[Old Spice]

Ideally mids go back, but in practice they haven't. You might recruit someone with mid-fwd capacities but I have a sneaking suspicion that Collingwood are building defensive KPIs into the mid role so that everyone can go back there to chop out and give support.

 

[Mateyman]

Clubs when talking midfield only types will likely only use their elite midfielders on the ball for close to all their minutes - unless they are Dangerfield/Cotchin/Ablett special up forward because at the end of the day your elite players, they're the guys you want around the ball and involved in the most players possible.

Would you really say Cotchin was elite up forward?

 

[Knightmare]

Would you really say Cotchin was elite up forward?

Absolutely.

Of the elite midfielders Cotchin is possibly as a deep forward the most damaging in the game. The only other guy I could make a case for is Dangerfield who is his equal when pushed deep forward. Josh Kennedy is another mid who looks good deep when given the chance but probably doesn't get much of a chance to show it anymore with Franklin, Tippett, Reid and Pyke all in that front half.

 

[Mateyman]

Absolutely.

Of the elite midfielders Cotchin is possibly as a deep forward the most damaging in the game. The only other guy I could make a case for is Dangerfield who is his equal when pushed deep forward. Josh Kennedy is another mid who looks good deep when given the chance but probably doesn't get much of a chance to show it anymore with Franklin, Tippett, Reid and Pyke all in that front half.

They guy scored 6 goals all of last year. Surely if he was so good forward he would've been able to expose Maccaffer there when he was having no impact?

 

[Knightmare]

They guy scored 6 goals all of last year. Surely if he was so good forward he would've been able to expose Maccaffer there when he was having no impact?

Macaffer isn't out of his depth when pushed into the back half. Not everyone kicks goals every week. Travis Cloke has only scored goals in two of his six games so far this season so I'd hardly get down on Cotchin for one bad game.

On 2013 Cotchin was playing the season injured. Judge him on what he did in 2012 and what he does this year.

 

[Old Spice]

It's OT, but I would rate Cotchin one of the least damaging mid-fwds in the competition at the minute.

 

[suspect footskills]

Dayne Beams 2012.
There's a damaging mid-fwd.