Autopsy Misfiring Dogs choke a top 4 spot v Gold Coast

[perro_loco]

Go back and watch the video.

Looked like Ryan either was or should have been responsible for Lukosius for 4 out of his 5. Admittedly he looked so lost that you could barely call it a match up. He was also closest to King when he kicked one.

Gardner was poor because he was put in tough defensive situations. On one occasion he really made a stuff up. O'Brien and the cricketer's son should be dropped. Bring in Burce and Bukku. Possibly put Naughton in the backline with Bruce forward. Has to be tried. Our backline would be unbeatable with Jones and Naughton. JUH, Bruce and Lobb would become difficult for any side. It has to be tried. Kingie suggested this idea and it is worth a try sometime this season. Against North or Geelong next week.

 

[lachy]

4 of his 5 came from direct turnovers from Dale, L. Jones, O'Brien and Richards, he was matched up on these players during the match...

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I am still staggered by opinions that do not understand it is not the defenders lack of ability or accountability that causes the issue it is the turnover often by players we both love and rate that creates the goals that cost us games, as they do all teams.

Our better players outside a few had average to poor games. We lost by 7 points. We either learn from this and get stronger or get bogged down in so called football journalism commentary and find scapegoats and reasons that only exist for clickbate.

Our better players nail most of their chances we win easily and are top 4. The opportunity remains we just need to turn it around next week

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[threenewpadlocks]

It's a footy forum and I can post about whatever I choose.

Perhaps you should stop going to such ridiculous lengths to try to absolve your preferred players from any responsibility\criticism, and\or post cherry picked stats to try to make their performances look better than they really are.

For example, me pointing out that Ryan was Lukosius's direct opponent for 3 of his goals, is a true statement.
You have presented a graphical representation of where the turnovers which lead to 4 of Lukosius goals occurred, none of which were in our defensive 50, and two of which were around our half forward flank, and somehow suggest that this explains why Gardner isn't at fault? Not sure why, the ball always comes from somewhere and particularly if the turnover in possession comes from well forward of centre then a defender has a fair amount of time to react.

It's not a matter of me not liking Gardner, he seems like a nice enough bloke. I am however concerned with his continual preferential selection treatment in comparison to other better performed players. It hurts the team, and as I have suggested previously it may have also hampered Ryan's development as a player, perhaps irreparably at this stage.

On the replays of Lukocious' goals throughout the broadcast you can absolutely see Gardner's playing several metres off him.

You're a Bulldogs fan. You should understand Gardner's doing the thankless job of being the bloke who sprints back and covers any opposition's deepest forward, when we have to scramble in defensive transition, because he unusually has good endurance for his height (and sometimes has been matched up to opposition smaller forwards if they move the ball quickly from their defensive half). Gardner's capable of doing this because he's reasonably athletic for his height, he consistently is in our top 5 for distance covered in a game, and has good closing speed. But he still is a converted defender who isn't doing to stand shoulder to shoulder with a forward and read the flight of the ball and body the opposition, if he was, he would not have been available in the mid-season draft and wouldn't be on (presumably) next to a minimum deal salary rise. Notice how when we set up at stoppages, and not Gardner's defensive transition running, Gardner doesn't take good forwards, and often stands in a back pocket rather than a fullback position (which obviously is taken by Jones as our number 1 defender). There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that part of the reason we were so poor on deep turnover movement in the first two rounds is that we were almost playing the 2022 style if Gardner was still there, yet the other defenders in the unit, like Bruce, didn't have the capacity to cover as much ground at the time. We adjusted, obviously, but there's value there.

If other players were part of that defensive system, the wouldn't even have the athletic capacity to get to the contest in the first place. Or we would have to pay more salary to that position, losing out elsewhere. Or we would have to utilise a different defensive system that would mean that our midfield and forward line is (in theory) less effective.

Nobody's claiming Gardner's a star, or had a good game or anything - I think everyone can agree he had a poor game, as he did ultimately lose contests - just that as stated above 90+% of your posts is harping on about a player whose role you don't even seem to understand, or can't figure out what he's actually being asked to do.

 

[lachy]

Our backline had a bad day it's that simple we handed them 4 goals from direct turnovers as i said bad kicking is bad football.. GC were the cleaner side in the conditions and thats why they won the game

Given the turnovers were often not from the backline it is harsh to say the backline had a bad do I would have thought

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[lachy]

I’m not sure whether to feel relieved that dropping an eminently winnable wasn’t punished by others around us, or to feel frustrated at such a missed opportunity when those around us lost to make decent ground in the race for top four.

Probably need 17-6 for top four, or maybe 16-7 and a decent percentage. We have a pretty benign run home all things considered, but only 2-3 losses in 12 games feels a little out of reach tbh.

Dropping that game means that 2-0 in the next fortnight is pretty important, 1-1 at worst.

Love your passion Hutchy, but there is a reason we talk about 1 week at a time.

Top 4, top 8 are both opportunities but we need to worry about next week, and then and only then the week after.

This round has shown there are very few easy wins if any. The Eagles are struggling to put a team.on the ground and the Kangas have a very young team.

With vagaries of the fixture there are no easy games and we will drop a few more. We should be aiming for top 4 but if we do do not get there but make the finals we are always a chance.

There are 18 teams of which at least 12 believe they can win this thing, it is what makes our game both great of challenging for all of us who passionately support a team in it.

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[Proffessor]

Gardner was poor because he was put in tough defensive situations. On one occasion he really made a stuff up. O'Brien and the cricketer's son should be dropped. Bring in Burce and Bukku. Possibly put Naughton in the backline with Bruce forward. Has to be tried. Our backline would be unbeatable with Jones and Naughton. JUH, Bruce and Lobb would become difficult for any side. It has to be tried. Kingie suggested this idea and it is worth a try sometime this season. Against North or Geelong next week.

O'Donnell is young and developing, I expect he will bounce around between VFL and AFL levels for a while. Jones, Keath, Bruce when fit seem to be our best tall defenders, followed by O'Brien and Gardner and in that order. Naughton terrorises opposition defences so he should stay forward, just need to keep improving his kicking.

Gardner put in a fairly typical performance really but was more exposed as he had to take on greater responsibility in the absence of Keath.

I think Buku has potential but he just needs to bide his time and hone his craft in the VFL given our plethora of experienced talls.

 

[lachy]

O'Donnell is young and developing, I expect he will bounce around between VFL and AFL levels for a while. Jones, Keath, Bruce when fit seem to be our best tall defenders, followed by O'Brien and Gardner and in that order. Naughton terrorises opposition defences so he should stay forward, just need to keep improving his kicking.

Gardner put in a fairly typical performance really but was more exposed as he had to take on greater responsibility in the absence of Keath.

I think Buku has potential but he just needs to bide his time and hone his craft in the VFL given our plethora of experienced talls.

Personally not totally disagreeing with you on this one Proff.

What I saw from JOD in the first quarter and a bit would have have him with L.Jones by far our best defender and in my opinion Bruce as the three tall backs with Keith then Gardiner the TOB in that order.

Don't see any value at all in Naughton back just play him and JUH higher and Lobb and occasionally English deep

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[Proffessor]

On the replays of Lukocious' goals throughout the broadcast you can absolutely see Gardner's playing several metres off him.

You're a Bulldogs fan. You should understand Gardner's doing the thankless job of being the bloke who sprints back and covers any opposition's deepest forward, when we have to scramble in defensive transition, because he unusually has good endurance for his height (and sometimes has been matched up to opposition smaller forwards if they move the ball quickly from their defensive half). Gardner's capable of doing this because he's reasonably athletic for his height, he consistently is in our top 5 for distance covered in a game, and has good closing speed. But he still is a converted defender who isn't doing to stand shoulder to shoulder with a forward and read the flight of the ball and body the opposition, if he was, he would not have been available in the mid-season draft and wouldn't be on (presumably) next to a minimum deal salary rise. Notice how when we set up at stoppages, and not Gardner's defensive transition running, Gardner doesn't take good forwards, and often stands in a back pocket rather than a fullback position (which obviously is taken by Jones as our number 1 defender). There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that part of the reason we were so poor on deep turnover movement in the first two rounds is that we were almost playing the 2022 style if Gardner was still there, yet the other defenders in the unit, like Bruce, didn't have the capacity to cover as much ground at the time. We adjusted, obviously, but there's value there.

If other players were part of that defensive system, the wouldn't even have the athletic capacity to get to the contest in the first place. Or we would have to pay more salary to that position, losing out elsewhere. Or we would have to utilise a different defensive system that would mean that our midfield and forward line is (in theory) less effective.

Nobody's claiming Gardner's a star, or had a good game or anything - I think everyone can agree he had a poor game, as he did ultimately lose contests - just that as stated above 90+% of your posts is harping on about a player whose role you don't even seem to understand, or can't figure out what he's actually being asked to do.

I think I understand the role better than most. One of the key issues for Ryan is that the person who tends to play his type of role is typically expected to make a substantial number of intercepts, which he simply hasn't been able to do consistently. Not sure if it's a judgment or a confidence issue, although I have generally suspected the latter. Even though I never agreed with it, his punch at all costs approach might have made some sort of sense when we had Caleb Daniel playing in defence, but now it's just foolhardy and often counterproductive.

To put it very simply, if he isn't being very effective when he gets to contests then it really doesn't help us much whether he gets there or not.

 

[Oliver G]

It's a footy forum and I can post about whatever I choose.

Perhaps you should stop going to such ridiculous lengths to try to absolve your preferred players from any responsibility\criticism, and\or post cherry picked stats to try to make their performances look better than they really are.

For example, me pointing out that Ryan was Lukosius's direct opponent for 3 of his goals, is a true statement.
You have presented a graphical representation of where the turnovers which lead to 4 of Lukosius goals occurred, none of which were in our defensive 50, and two of which were around our half forward flank, and somehow suggest that this explains why Gardner isn't at fault? Not sure why, the ball always comes from somewhere and particularly if the turnover in possession comes from well forward of centre then a defender has a fair amount of time to react.

It's not a matter of me not liking Gardner, he seems like a nice enough bloke. I am however concerned with his continual preferential selection treatment in comparison to other better performed players. It hurts the team, and as I have suggested previously it may have also hampered Ryan's development as a player, perhaps irreparably at this stage.

Of course you can post about whoever you want but don't go crying when people call you out on your baseless claims over and over again or if you don't understand how matchups work or that more often than not with us the error lies in the sheer amount of forward half turnovers we give up.

At no point have I claimed that Gardner had a great game and I've often criticised both his selection and performance but as mentioned countless times there is no way anyone watching last night's game with any neutrality would blame the loss on Gardner.

 

[theburst]

Kingy last night on First Crack pushed the Naughton to backline discussion again, showing horror behind-the-goal vision of O'Brien and Gardner

 

[The Inbetweener]

Of course you can post about whoever you want but don't go crying when people call you out on your baseless claims over and over again or if you don't understand how matchups work or that more often than not with us the error lies in the sheer amount of forward half turnovers we give up.

At no point have I claimed that Gardner had a great game and I've often criticised both his selection and performance but as mentioned countless times there is no way anyone watching last night's game with any neutrality would blame the loss on Gardner.

Can I clarify something please. Two of the goals Luko kicked on Gardner that stand out are:
The one where the ball hung in the air forever late in the third and Gardner couldn’t impact it.

The cross from the boundary line in the 2nd when Luko kicked it from the goal line.

In both instances Gardner was the one on Luko at the time of the contest. With the 2nd one are you saying it doesn’t count as being kicked on Gardner as he technically wasn’t on him at the time, yet he was clearly the one involved in the contest?

That 2nd goal was pure luck, but Luko did charge to the goal line to put himself in the position, while Gardner pulled up.

In my opinion, there is no point in him having the ability to cover ground if he gets there but fails to impact the contest.

O’Brien was much worse and undoubtedly their goals were generated from turnovers, but Gardner needs to be better in those one on ones, as turnovers will happen. The first example mentioned was particularly damning.

 

[Some Idiot]

Being the masochist that I am, I've rewatched a few moments from last night's game. Lukosius's third goal, which came after an O'Brien skill error, was the lowlight for me. How can you spray a fifteen metre pass from a standing start to a teammate in the clear, under absolutely no pressure? That turnover and goal against us with four minutes to go in the second quarter was utterly deflating.

I can't work out who's a worse kick between Gardner, Keath, Bruce and O'Brien as they've all missed similar kicks this year.
On the plus side, young O'Donnell had some really nice kicks

 

[Dogman 1]

Gardner was poor because he was put in tough defensive situations. On one occasion he really made a stuff up. O'Brien and the cricketer's son should be dropped. Bring in Burce and Bukku. Possibly put Naughton in the backline with Bruce forward. Has to be tried. Our backline would be unbeatable with Jones and Naughton. JUH, Bruce and Lobb would become difficult for any side. It has to be tried. Kingie suggested this idea and it is worth a try sometime this season. Against North or Geelong next week.

Was just reading David Kings piece about putting Naughton back. I tend to agree with him, we have plenty of forwards and with Naughton back would only strengthen the backline. We still break down with players like Gardner, TOB playing there. The move of Naughton would only strengthen our entire side.

 

[Foxman98]

Was just reading David Kings piece about putting Naughton back. I tend to agree with him, we have plenty of forwards and with Naughton back would only strengthen the backline. We still break down with players like Gardner, TOB playing there. The move of Naughton would only strengthen our entire side.

How?

Turnovers in the backline is already our biggest issue down there how does Naughton improve that when he can't hit a 20m set shot?

 

[Mofra]

Being the masochist that I am, I've rewatched a few moments from last night's game. Lukosius's third goal, which came after an O'Brien skill error, was the lowlight for me. How can you spray a fifteen metre pass from a standing start to a teammate in the clear, under absolutely no pressure? That turnover and goal against us with four minutes to go in the second quarter was utterly deflating.

That's a worry for me - TOB is a Cam Wight type, just does a lot right then undoes it with a brain fade or skill error 1-2 times per game that cost us shots on goal. The quicker we can find a legitimate interceptor to play that 3rd defender role, the better.
It explains our obvious interest in Tom Doedee

 

[BEaston]

Gardner was on Lukosius for 27 minutes and he kicked 1 goal in that time. Lukosius got most of his goals from quick transitions after one of our forward-half turnovers which are next to impossible to defend. Gardner was not the issue tonight.

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HEY! Let's not let facts get in the way of a good story!

 

[Libbaaaa]

Re: Jamarra's kicking he is absolutely money from almost any distance either in front or a slight angle. Worryingly he gets absolutely no natural swing when kicking on the the advantageous side for a left footer. Hopefully some minor tweaks can improve that.

 

[TiAn_]

Saw the footage King used on First Crack and it had Lukosius kicking 2 goals while being defended by Gardner. Not sure how who is defending who is defined for the stats, but if they say Lukosius only kicked 1 on Gardner then they don’t reflect what I saw.

I don’t have a dog in the Gardner fight, I think he’s been quite good at times and have been very complimentary in the Gardner thread. However, I think his positioning and decision making about when to spoil and when to mark have both gone backwards a bit from the good form he showed last year. His effort to get to a lot contests as third man up is still great, but what he does when he gets there still needs improvement. Could be down on confidence again. I hope he’s watching the absolute gun next to him very closely every week.

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

From his goals.

It looked like JOD was for the first one, TOB for the second and Gardner for the other three. The third goal he kicked not sure anyone could do anything about it. O'Brien turned it over and Gardner recovered well but Ainsworth kicked it to the line and Lukosious volleyed it. Gardner should've done better for the next two and he would probably be a little disappointed about it personally. You'd need the behind the goal vision to be 100% certain

Gardner was definitely on him for 3 goals. Both marking contests were against Gardner and the volley from the goal square Gardner was right next to him.

 

[Mofra]

I can't work out who's a worse kick between Gardner, Keath, Bruce and O'Brien as they've all missed similar kicks this year.
On the plus side, young O'Donnell had some really nice kicks

Gardner & Bruce do tend to take that extra second to dispose of the ball - I don't think we have have both in the same backline, and Gardner is much quicker than Bruce so will get to more contests.
O'Brien is less a KPD and more an interceptor but interceptors generally mark it a bit more and use it a bit better.

I too was surprised by JOD's long kicks and he really could be a regular best 22 player from next season. He's clearly going to be a much better player with more time in the system considering his lack of experience at any senior level.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Thank goodness one poster "understands the role better than most".

And all Oliver G's stats - actual recorded metrics - are irrelevant apparently!

Everyone else should stop posting, one person knows more than everyone else. Lol.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Saw the footage King used on First Crack and it had Lukosius kicking 2 goals while being defended by Gardner. Not sure how who is defending who is defined for the stats, but if they say Lukosius only kicked 1 on Gardner then they don’t reflect what I saw.

I don’t have a dog in the Gardner fight, I think he’s been quite good at times and have been very complimentary in the Gardner thread. However, I think his positioning and decision making about when to spoil and when to mark have both gone backwards a bit from the good form he showed last year. His effort to get to a lot contests as third man up is still great, but what he does when he gets there still needs improvement. Could be down on confidence again. I hope he’s watching the absolute gun next to him very closely every week.

It's difficult to judge who's playing on who. IIRC JO'D started on Lukosius and at various times all of TO'B, Jones and Gardner stood him. I dont think it was because Lukosisus was so great we couldn't find an answer. I think its just the way we set up our zone defence the very same reason he was able to get as many relatively easy goals as he did.

 

[Dog 36]

Gardner & Bruce do tend to take that extra second to dispose of the ball - I don't think we have have both in the same backline, and Gardner is much quicker than Bruce so will get to more contests.
O'Brien is less a KPD and more an interceptor but interceptors generally mark it a bit more and use it a bit better.

I too was surprised by JOD's long kicks and he really could be a regular best 22 player from next season. He's clearly going to be a much better player with more time in the system considering his lack of experience at any senior level.

I think our kicking skills across the player group is mediocre and that is been nice and generous.

With regards to Gardner TOB Jones etc their lack of foot skills is highlighted more because it is more costly.

Naughton is a talent but once you have decided he is a forward you need to address his set shot on goal. Most disappointing thing for me is this issue has not been addressed and it shows as it has not improved.

 

[Unorth]

Honestly, I don’t think Gardner should be safe at all, if he was dropped I would think that fair.

But that crop of Gards, Keath, Bruce as 2nd Kpds and TOB and Crozier as intercepts is pretty vomit worthy for a side trying to finish top 4. And all of those players except tob have played consistent, good footy for us at one point, but in 2023 that is a very shaky pool to choose from.

I think it’s why Lobb has been pushed to the wing, he basically acts as insurance in the backline. Sometimes we see both Lobb and Tim running back.

It’s worked, we’ve become a good defensive team in some areas after being shite in all of them last year, but it would feel more reassuring to have better options. Hence fast tracking JoD. I’m still a bit iffy on that, though much less so now that he’s in the backline. Putting him forward was a bit too crazy. JoD with 15 games under his belt may actually be better than any of those options - or I assume that’s the clubs thinking.

 

[Proffessor]

Can I clarify something please. Two of the goals Luko kicked on Gardner that stand out are:
The one where the ball hung in the air forever late in the third and Gardner couldn’t impact it.

The cross from the boundary line in the 2nd when Luko kicked it from the goal line.

In both instances Gardner was the one on Luko at the time of the contest. With the 2nd one are you saying it doesn’t count as being kicked on Gardner as he technically wasn’t on him at the time, yet he was clearly the one involved in the contest?

That 2nd goal was pure luck, but Luko did charge to the goal line to put himself in the position, while Gardner pulled up.

In my opinion, there is no point in him having the ability to cover ground if he gets there but fails to impact the contest.

O’Brien was much worse and undoubtedly their goals were generated from turnovers, but Gardner needs to be better in those one on ones, as turnovers will happen. The first example mentioned was particularly damning.

I like almost all of this post. The only area I disagree with is the statement about O’Brien being much worse.

I seem to be bit more forgiving of TO’B than many here. Has he made a few mistakes? Sure, but his marking capabilities give him plenty of upside.

By the way TO’B has copped a bit of flack for his kick up the guts late on Saturday night. Given that we were down by not much and time was running down quickly he didn’t have a lot of options. I was more disappointed in the lack of people presenting for him than his kick.