Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

35Daicos

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2003 Obituaries:

That should be the lot! It says in the introduction to the 2004 Guide "There are numerous new additions to AFL 2004, including a record of all known AFL/VFL players who passed away in 2003."
 

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35Daicos

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Here's Obituaries 2015 from the 2016 book for anyone who doesn't have it and wants the full set!! Obituaries 2017 was posted around here somewhere recently.
 

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ThePope

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Thanks a lot. From the 2014 deaths list I've found 9 players who we didn't have listed as having died, 4 with date mismatches and 3 that we had listed, but weren't on the AFL list. Where I think it needs official updating, I'll list it on the inconsistency page. I'll correct Wikipedia myself, and probably start making some lists here for the Gigaczes to update AustralianFootball.com.

Would be nice to get the full list from the AFL (and AustralianFootball.com) to check against the Wikipedia/Wikidata list.
 

ThePope

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Thanks for those. Here's the code to retrieve a year's worth of records from Wikidata (this is for 2014. Just change number in the FILTER line to another year for other years). I'll try to start going through them all soon.
http://tinyurl.com/y7qhyuax
OK, based on the 2014 list in the 2015 guide, here are the players that need updating:

Payer Team Issue
George Lenne Melb, DOD 15/02/2014: DOD incorrect at Demonwiki (Supermercado)
Richard Luke, SM, DOD 27/08/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football (Oliver Gigacz )
John Mahon, Coll, DOD 23/11/2014: DOD missing DOD missing at Aust Football & Coll Forever
Cameron McDonald, Foot, DOD 13/02/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football
Kevin Mithen, Melb/SM, DOD 23/7/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football & Demonwiki
Ron Paez, SM, DOD 17/08/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football
Keith Rochow, Fitz, DOD 8/12/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football
Peter Ruscuklic, Fitz/Gee, DOD 2/5/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football
Geoff Umbers, Gee, DOD 16/8/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football
Bill Walford, Rich, DOD 5/11/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football
Lance Watson, Fitz, DOD 17/10/2014: DOD missing at Aust Football
Len Woolf, Haw, DOD unsure:
AFL guide obit has 11 Oct 2014, but WhiteHartLane23 updated wikipedia with 8 Nov 2014 based on an obit in UQCC. I also found a date of 11 Aug 2014 in Cricket Victoria List, but they had the year of birth as 1920, not the 1921 that everyone else has. Can't find any death notice or cemetery record to match. UQCC says he retired to Narrabeen, NSW but died in Brisbane, which could be a cut/paste error?
 

the croucher

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OK, based on the 2014 list in the 2015 guide, here are the players that need updating:

Payer Team Issue
<snip>
Len Woolf, Haw, DOD unsure:
AFL guide obit has 11 Oct 2014, but WhiteHartLane23 updated wikipedia with 8 Nov 2014 based on an obit in UQCC. I also found a date of 11 Aug 2014 in Cricket Victoria List, but they had the year of birth as 1920, not the 1921 that everyone else has. Can't find any death notice or cemetery record to match. UQCC says he retired to Narrabeen, NSW but died in Brisbane, which could be a cut/paste error?
Puzzling indeed, the Woolf one...

The Ryerson index appears to have just one entry for a Len Woolf, (in WA in 2014),
so have just checked the West Australian website and it refers to such a person having a funeral on 6 June 2014
http://www.westannouncements.com.au/obituaries/thewest-au/obituary.aspx?n=len-woolf&pid=171203514&fhid=14406

No other info found yet to clarify whether this is the footballer or not.
 
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GreyCrow

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Puzzling indeed, the Woolf one...

The Ryerson index appears to have just one entry for a Len Woolf, (in WA in 2014),
so have just checked the West Australian website and it refers to such a person having a funeral on 6 June 2014
http://www.westannouncements.com.au/obituaries/thewest-au/obituary.aspx?n=len-woolf&pid=171203514&fhid=14406

No other info found yet to clarify whether this is the footballer or not.
78 years of age ie 1936 birth

http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KC00193833

First Name LEONARD Application Number
Last Name
WOOLFNames are only recorded in capitals KC00193833Karrakatta Cremation
Aged (Years) 78 Date of Death 29/05/2014
Suburb FERNDALE
 

GreyCrow

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Len Woolf, Haw, DOD unsure:
AFL guide obit has 11 Oct 2014, but WhiteHartLane23 updated wikipedia with 8 Nov 2014 based on an obit in UQCC. I also found a date of 11 Aug 2014 in Cricket Victoria List, but they had the year of birth as 1920, not the 1921 that everyone else has. Can't find any death notice or cemetery record to match. UQCC says he retired to Narrabeen, NSW but died in Brisbane, which could be a cut/paste error?
I think this needs further searching

I found this note that might indicate 2 Len Woolfs , to me this indicates a rugby player
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article100972888

It was appropriate that at the wedding of a footballer who had achieved fame by representing Australia at Rugby Union and Rugby League, there should be representatives of the "Wallaby" and "Kangaroo" teams with which he toured. Down from Forbes came Eric Tweedale, who was a team mate
of Ken's in the Parramatta Club and the "Wallabies". Also present was Len Woolf, a Parramatta and representative player.

Edit: Noting the biog in UQCC says Len is in Qld.

DVA has birth 1920

Name WOOLF, LEONARD ROY
Service Australian Army
Service Number VX120958
Date of Birth 12 Nov 1920
Place of Birth MELBOURNE, VIC
 
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the croucher

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I think this needs further searching

I found this note that might indicate 2 Len Woolfs , to me this indicates a rugby player
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article100972888

It was appropriate that at the wedding of a footballer who had achieved fame by representing Australia at Rugby Union and Rugby League, there should be representatives of the "Wallaby" and "Kangaroo" teams with which he toured. Down from Forbes came Eric Tweedale, who was a team mate
of Ken's in the Parramatta Club and the "Wallabies". Also present was Len Woolf, a Parramatta and representative player.

Edit: Noting the biog in UQCC says Len is in Qld.

DVA has birth 1920

Name WOOLF, LEONARD ROY
Service Australian Army
Service Number VX120958
Date of Birth 12 Nov 1920
Place of Birth MELBOURNE, VIC

Yes, copy of his handwritten service record confirms 12 Nov 1920 as well.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6107223
 

ThePope

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I think this needs further searching

I found this note that might indicate 2 Len Woolfs , to me this indicates a rugby player
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article100972888

It was appropriate that at the wedding of a footballer who had achieved fame by representing Australia at Rugby Union and Rugby League, there should be representatives of the "Wallaby" and "Kangaroo" teams with which he toured. Down from Forbes came Eric Tweedale, who was a team mate
of Ken's in the Parramatta Club and the "Wallabies". Also present was Len Woolf, a Parramatta and representative player.

Edit: Noting the biog in UQCC says Len is in Qld.

DVA has birth 1920

Name WOOLF, LEONARD ROY
Service Australian Army
Service Number VX120958
Date of Birth 12 Nov 1920
Place of Birth MELBOURNE, VIC
Most other searches on trove for Woolf Parramatta show up a L or K Woolfe, so probably a slight spelling error.
As for the 1920/21 birthday, I have the Victorian BDM list up to 1920, and there is nothing there, nor in Trove Age/Argus birth notices for November 1920 or 1921.
As for the Army, if he did put his age up a year, as many did... was there any benefit (pay?) being 22 instead of 21? I could understand if it was 17/18, but 21/22 has me stumped.
 

GreyCrow

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Most other searches on trove for Woolf Parramatta show up a L or K Woolfe, so probably a slight spelling error.
As for the 1920/21 birthday, I have the Victorian BDM list up to 1920, and there is nothing there, nor in Trove Age/Argus birth notices for November 1920 or 1921.
As for the Army, if he did put his age up a year, as many did... was there any benefit (pay?) being 22 instead of 21? I could understand if it was 17/18, but 21/22 has me stumped.
I also had this thought but apart from already being over 21 in either case I'm not sure either. I couldnt find a funeral notice nor cemetery mention in Narrabeen or either northern state
 

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ThePope

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I also had this thought but apart from already being over 21 in either case I'm not sure either. I couldnt find a funeral notice nor cemetery mention in Narrabeen or either northern state
Reading through the service records, he actually joined in 1941, but still, 1920/1921 means he was just 19 or just 20.
He got married in Brissy in June 1944. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article42052286
His wife, Rae Elsie Smith, was the daughter of a Rabaul plantation owner who was killed by the Japanese. Woolf probably met her in PNG. http://www.lunatribe.com/Genealogy/7697.htm

Comment in the marriage notice there about being the youngest son of Mr G. H. Woolf (George Henry from the service record) leads me to check for siblings. He may have been an "accident", as the next youngest appears to have been at least 12 years older, which might explain the no birth notice. At least it seems unlikely that it was an unmarried mother, and subsequent name change after birth which is what I was starting to think.

year registration number gender surname first names father mother birth place
1903 16645 F Woolf Elsie May George Henry Townsend Alice Maud Carlton
1905 5396 M Woolf George Clarence George Henry Leopold Townsend Alice Maud Port Melbourne
1907 13376 F Woolf Irene Maud George Henry Leopold Townsend Alice Maud Port Melbourne
1908 25208 F Woolf Myrtle Eileen George Henry Leopold Townsend Alice Maud Carlton

Looks like he would've been a decent Twenty20 player!
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203753589
 
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GreyCrow

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Reading through the service records, he actually joined in 1941, but still, 1920/1921 means he was just 19 or just 20.
He got married in Brissy in June 1944. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article42052286
His wife, Rae Elsie Smith, was the daughter of a Rabaul plantation owner who was killed by the Japanese. Woolf probably met her in PNG. http://www.lunatribe.com/Genealogy/7697.htm
His war service must have been horrendous

http://www.australian-stamp-covers.info/SOLDIERS of LARK FORCE 1942.pdf

https://assets.sportstg.com/assets/console/document/documents/June 2012_Memorial News_39.pdf

It may pay to contact the Maru Society for any info they have

Comment in the marriage notice there about being the youngest son of Mr G. H. Woolf (George Henry from the service record) leads me to check for siblings. He may have been an "accident", as the next youngest appears to have been at least 12 years older, which might explain the no birth notice. At least it seems unlikely that it was an unmarried mother, and subsequent name change after birth which is what I was starting to think.

year registration number gender surname first names father mother birth place
1903 16645 F Woolf Elsie May George Henry Townsend Alice Maud Carlton
1905 5396 M Woolf George Clarence George Henry Leopold Townsend Alice Maud Port Melbourne
1907 13376 F Woolf Irene Maud George Henry Leopold Townsend Alice Maud Port Melbourne
1908 25208 F Woolf Myrtle Eileen George Henry Leopold Townsend Alice Maud Carlton

Looks like he would've been a decent Twenty20 player!
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203753589
I have no idea nor am I saying definitely but sometimes families hide secrets. I wonder if this could be a reason for no entry or its a simple matter of no entry released yet
 

the croucher

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I think this needs further searching

I found this note that might indicate 2 Len Woolfs , to me this indicates a rugby player
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article100972888

It was appropriate that at the wedding of a footballer who had achieved fame by representing Australia at Rugby Union and Rugby League, there should be representatives of the "Wallaby" and "Kangaroo" teams with which he toured. Down from Forbes came Eric Tweedale, who was a team mate
of Ken's in the Parramatta Club and the "Wallabies". Also present was Len Woolf, a Parramatta and representative player.

Edit: Noting the biog in UQCC says Len is in Qld.

DVA has birth 1920

Name WOOLF, LEONARD ROY
Service Australian Army
Service Number VX120958
Date of Birth 12 Nov 1920
Place of Birth MELBOURNE, VIC

I know odds are probably against it, but am wondering if he may still be alive ?
 

GreyCrow

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Couple of names to add , maybe

Gerald Archibald Balme. Very well documented but I feel the documents might be wrong

https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=12391 states he is 30 (1885/6) and born in Victoria. So why no birth notice? The job ties in with Trove records and I accept he is in Johannesburg Sth Africa and lives and dies there. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178127375

This trip is after his wife dies in 1945. Probate record on FamilySearch. Ancestry have a notice for birth in Vic (sourced from?) and the probate record of 1955 - I dont have access. If someone could look up those 2 then Australianfootball.com can complete their records. I see other sites have this 1955 death but no source.

if someone could go over the tracks and also if access to Ancestry.

Len Phillips according to Australianfootball.com is born 1890 and plays in 1914/15. Given this report http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article64008988 it is easy to assume Len is Leonard Vincent Phillips

Event registration number 13769 Registration year 1890 Personal information Family name PHILLIPS Given names Leonard Vincent

Father's name Thos Jos Mother's name Barbara (Lindupp) Place of birth HEALESVILLE

---

So happy to connect these 2 . Ryersons gives us a death notice in the Age but died in Surfers Paradise 1968
PHILLIPS Leonard Vincent Death notice 13AUG1968 Death 78 at Surfers' Paradise The Age (Melbourne) 14AUG1968

Qld BDM confirms above

1968 B99495 Leonard Vincent Phillips Thomas Joseph Phillips Barbara Lindupp

If someone can let australianfootball.com know. It seems other sites have this info already

More to come
 

ThePope

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Couple of names to add , maybe

Gerald Archibald Balme. Very well documented but I feel the documents might be wrong

https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=12391 states he is 30 (1885/6) and born in Victoria. So why no birth notice? The job ties in with Trove records and I accept he is in Johannesburg Sth Africa and lives and dies there. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178127375

This trip is after his wife dies in 1945. Probate record on FamilySearch. Ancestry have a notice for birth in Vic (sourced from?) and the probate record of 1955 - I dont have access. If someone could look up those 2 then Australianfootball.com can complete their records. I see other sites have this 1955 death but no source.

if someone could go over the tracks and also if access to Ancestry.
There is a birth notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6077076, but you are right, there is no birth registration. I've looked at as many variations, Arthur as the father's name, St Kilda as the location, as I can think of. Maybe they just forgot.
There is a marriage, in 1916:
1916 8323 Balme Gerlad[sic] Archibald Howard Ivy Matilda

There is a birth registered in 1904, Isaac Hirst Balme to Arthur and Agnes (nee Crothers). Gerald's war record lists Agnes of Claremont WA as his next of kin until it was replaced by Ivy. Hirst (as he was known) died in 1931 at age 26 (days after becoming a father). His funeral lists 3 brothers attending, Arthur, Douglas and Eric, but not Gerald (often Jerry in the sporting pages). There appear to be more brothers, Reginald Bramley who died in WW1 and Charles Harold who also fought. None of them seem to have birth registrations either. Searched for all "Bramley"s in the records.. nothing matches.

Gerald's (and Ivy's?) death record can be obtained for about $7.5 from http://www.ancestor.co.za/search.asp

Other than the newspaper birth notice not naming him, I think the lack of birth registration seems to be par for this family.
 

the croucher

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There is a birth notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6077076, but you are right, there is no birth registration. I've looked at as many variations, Arthur as the father's name, St Kilda as the location, as I can think of. Maybe they just forgot.
There is a marriage, in 1916:
1916 8323 Balme Gerlad[sic] Archibald Howard Ivy Matilda

There is a birth registered in 1904, Isaac Hirst Balme to Arthur and Agnes (nee Crothers). Gerald's war record lists Agnes of Claremont WA as his next of kin until it was replaced by Ivy. Hirst (as he was known) died in 1931 at age 26 (days after becoming a father). His funeral lists 3 brothers attending, Arthur, Douglas and Eric, but not Gerald (often Jerry in the sporting pages). There appear to be more brothers, Reginald Bramley who died in WW1 and Charles Harold who also fought. None of them seem to have birth registrations either. Searched for all "Bramley"s in the records.. nothing matches.

Gerald's (and Ivy's?) death record can be obtained for about $7.5 from http://www.ancestor.co.za/search.asp

Other than the newspaper birth notice not naming him, I think the lack of birth registration seems to be par for this family.
Just as a ref to family background - Ancestry has a copy of the Balme/Crothers marriage certificate

Arthur Balme and Agnes Crothers were married at the UK Ambassador's residence in Paris, France on 30 Nov 1882.
One of the witnesses was Isaac Holden Crothers, so that probably explains child born in 1904 being named Isaac.

Like others in last 24-48 hours, have tried variations on the Vic BDMs and not come up with any other birth reg for suitable Balme family. The 1903 and 1908 electoral roll shows Arthur & Agnes Balme living in Bambra Road, Caulfield. Given Isaac was born in 1904, perhaps a range of churches in the Caulfield area ought be checked for baptism records. Jerry's enlistment papers in WW1 show religion as C of E so that perhaps narrows range to check for 1885 e.g. in St Kilda.

I'll contact the Genealogical Society of Vic, and local history societies in those suburbs and seek further advice. Very unusual for so many children of the one family not to be registered - although I did notice that the electoral roll gave Arthur Balme's occupation as "independent means." Perhaps he was of rather independent mind too !
 
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WhiteHartLane23

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Just as a ref to family background - Ancestry has a copy of the Balme/Crothers marriage certificate

Arthur Balme and Agnes Crothers were married at the UK Ambassador's residence in Paris, France on 30 Nov 1882.
One of the witnesses was Isaac Holden Crothers, so that probably explains child born in 1904 being named Isaac.

Like others in last 24-48 hours, have tried variations on the Vic BDMs and not come up with any other birth reg for suitable Balme family. The 1903 and 1908 electoral roll shows Arthur & Agnes Balme living in Bambra Road, Caulfield. Given Isaac was born in 1904, perhaps a range of churches in the Caulfield area ought be checked for baptism records. Jerry's enlistment papers in WW1 show religion as C of E so that perhaps narrows range to check for 1885 e.g. in St Kilda.

I'll contact the Genealogical Society of Vic, and local history societies in those suburbs and seek further advice. Very unusual for so many children of the one family not to be registered - although I did notice that the electoral roll gave Arthur Balme's occupation as "independent means." Perhaps he was of rather independent mind too !
I'm wonder if Gerry's birth might have been missed with travel back and forth to Europe

Here is Agnes' obituary http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page25477817
The sevens sons mentioned in the obit were:
Arthur Crothers Balme 1884–1947
Gerald Archibald Balme 1885–1955
Paul Balme 1887–1965
Charles Harold Nettleton Balme 1888–1926
Reginald Bramley Balme 1890–1917
William Douglas Murray Balme 1900–1972
Isaac Hirst Balme 1904–1931

Arthur bought into a sheep property near Corowa, NSW in 1882 but seems to travel back to Europe regularly
This article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108005769 is the shipping notice showing Arthur & Agnes and three sons arriving in Melb in 1887
And here is Paul Balme's WW2 record http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?ServiceId=A&VeteranId=832209 which claims a birth in France
 

GreyCrow

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Bob Burns Collingwood looks to be absent a DOD born 1884.

2 Robert Burns born in 1884. One passes in 1888. The other has no DOD listed in Vic BDM. The other is Robert Edward James Burns

----


Orm Pleasents (variations) Collingwood . Born Ormond William Pleasants 1882 in Euroa. His early life again is documented. Wins a Military Cross ( received 1920 ) for actions 5 days before the end of the war.

The irony for me is the thread dedicated to war service has a DOD 1946 yet Collingwood Forever and australianfootball dont.

There is no death in Australia but there is a shipping record for Ormond/Osmond in 1921. Assumed to receive his MC in London. There is a marriage in 1945 of Osmond Pleasents. Finally a Death listed on the GRO index has Ormond William Pleasents dying in Thanet registration district in 1946

But

PLEASENTS, ORMOND WILLIAM 59
GRO Reference: 1946 D Quarter in THANET Volume 05B Page 734

I can see a situation that he has taken 5 years off his age to get married and his bride ( the informant) has given the age she had been told. I did check for births in England in the 1887 period but none visible.
 

35Daicos

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Bob Burns Collingwood looks to be absent a DOD born 1884.

2 Robert Burns born in 1884. One passes in 1888. The other has no DOD listed in Vic BDM. The other is Robert Edward James Burns
The Encyclopedia has this player as Robert E. Burns. It also says he was "ex-Richmond Juniors". I see AustralianFootball.com has him as recruited from Richmond in 1904, and Wikipedia and Collingwood Forever have him as from Richmond (VFA). He doesn't get a mention on the Tigerland Archive VFA Players page, so perhaps he wasn't at Richmond (VFA)?
 
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GreyCrow

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The Encyclopedia has this player as Robert E. Burns. It also says he was "ex-Richmond Juniors". I see AustralianFootball.com has him as recruited from Richmond in 1904, and Wikipedia and Collingwood Forever have him as from Richmond (VFA). He doesn't get a mention on the Tigerland Archive VFA Players page, so perhaps he wasn't at Richmond (VFA)?
I saw that and he does get a mention

Or at least a Burns does. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article246098134

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article246078222
 

35Daicos

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GreyCrow

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Richmond or Richmond Juniors? With the first link (where Burns was named in the team) they were playing South Melb. Juniors, while Richmond played Prahran on the same day in the Association.

Same with the second link, Burns was playing for Richmond Juniors, not Richmond in the Association.
I had it in mind he was a junior.

Here is a link to an E Burns , this is the junior association match

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article246076582

This names him as E Burns in a match description, though I do wonder at the need to specify?

Here is another link that could mean Juniors could be reserves? In this link http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article246097244 Andy Beaman is named as playing for Northcote. Looking up BDM there is one Andrew Beaman born 1880 and there is no death up to 1903

So I dont understand the meaning of Juniors and maybe that is where confusion might fall

rbartlett anything on Burns?
 

ThePope

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I'll contact the Genealogical Society of Vic, and local history societies in those suburbs and seek further advice. Very unusual for so many children of the one family not to be registered - although I did notice that the electoral roll gave Arthur Balme's occupation as "independent means." Perhaps he was of rather independent mind too !
I found a registration for Douglas in 1900 in the NSW registry in Cowora.

As Arthur and Agnes are Neil Balme's great grandparents, maybe Rhett could contact him to ask if he knows any more info about Gerry and why they might not be registered.
 
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