Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[GreyCrow]

Pre-1953 if this notice is anything to go by http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206448859

But surely after 1939 if he served in the 2nd AIF , which I found is a voluntary force so not listed on Nominal Roll

Roberts was in a serious car accident at the time of playing for Yarraville http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202458268 this links St Kilda/Fitzroy career to this accident/player. Cant find any further notice (yet)

On the bolded another read of his fathers notice could also suggest it was his father that was in the 2nd AIF.

 

[GreyCrow]

While chasing Archibald Robinson

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10899703 season starts with Robinson North melbourne junior

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article142943790 named as Robertson for game as North Melbourne Junior

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196205577 dropped as Robertson

rbartlett can you look through your notes and ascertain which it is? I see Jim Main and Russel Holmesby have credited A Robertson as the 1 gamer in 1911. ( my edition a dinosaur 1992 (maybe 1st printing )

 

[rbartlett]

rbartlett can you look through your notes and ascertain which it is?

Richmond's Annual Report of 1911 has him as Robinson.

 

[35Daicos]

While chasing Archibald Robinson

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10899703 season starts with Robinson North melbourne junior

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article142943790 named as Robertson for game as North Melbourne Junior

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196205577 dropped as Robertson

rbartlett can you look through your notes and ascertain which it is? I see Jim Main and Russel Holmesby have credited A Robertson as the 1 gamer in 1911. ( my edition a dinosaur 1992 (maybe 1st printing )

Arch Robinson (from North Melbourne Juniors) in the latest edition (2014) of the book.

 

[rbartlett]

FRANK CORBY
Here is an important email update I've received from Stephen R. After liaising with Peter / Michael from CollingwoodFC Archives and going to the library.

Hi Peter,

We are getting closer - not quite there yet!

As I mentioned, I did go the Library (yesterday) and had a bit of a breakthrough.

From Lawrence Corby's death notices, from that 23 - 11 - 79 death:

- brother of Frank, Iris (Mrs Campbell), Brian, Bill, Marie (Mrs Renton)

- (specifically from Marie): brother of Marie; in our thoughts: Bill, Marie, Julie, Paul and Allison.

- (specifically from Iris): brother of Iris, b-in-law of Tony, uncle of Shane, Robyn, Dean and John.

I just thought trying to trace and track a name like Campbell would be impossible; so went for Renton - and was lucky.

To sum up, Marie Renton - listed for years (and in most recent e/roll) at:

8 Grange Rd. Blackburn South 3130.

(And, if no luck there! - as back-up, it seemed that Allison (above), her daughter, was still unmarried, and at:

20 New St. Armadale 3143 (I THINK!, that's the correct Allison, from the e/r)

(That was a fluke! with daughters - they will of course eventually have married surnames, and be impossible to trace!
I assumed as much, for Julie above.)

So I actually went to the Grange Rd. address this afternoon. (Yes, I'd noted there was a phone number -
9886 3216; but if you can see someone face-to-face, all the better. (And also - Allison seemed to have a mobile number listed on the white pages; again, OK for back-up)

I was HOPING that Marie would still be living there; that she'd be home; that, even if elderly, she'd still be 'bright as a button', as it were - and know what I was going to ask about Frank!

That's a lot to hope for!!! (and, obviously, PLENTY of times, over the journey - it hasn't happened! no doubt, with you too) -
but, incredibly, this time basically it all went OK.

(And I didn't even have to knock on the door! - she was in the driveway with Julie (I presume, as above; her daughter) and I could tell, immediately, I was on the right track!) So, the gist of what she had to say was:

Yes, Frank and Lawrence (and Bill and Brian) were her brothers; that she was the 'baby' of the family - I was hoping something like that would be the case! - being born in 1938, compared to, as we know, Lawrence in 1923 and Frank in 1924.
(Of course, I mentioned that I'd been able to trace her, thru Lawrence's death notices.)
She knew of course about Frank playing for Collingwood - but didn't recall anything, personally, about it; being only 10 at the time; and not having (even now) any real interest in footy. Julie was also, in the same boat there.
Of course, I asked about Frank's death.
She said, as far as she was aware, Frank moved away from Melbourne in the '50s, and died (at a young age) in NSW in the '60s.
(At the back of my mind, I've gone, would've helped if they'd put: Frank (dec.) in the D/N!)
Of course, I didn't want to bring up, myself, or even allude to, all these 'altercations' (for want of a better term) with the law, we've noted about Frank and/or Lawrence - so, I'm not sure if she was heading in that direction herself, when she said:
Frank was an extremely secretive man.
(Was he ever! - the name Eugene Francis Corby was NEVER on the Aust. electoral rolls, at any point, during the 20th century - that, of course, was easy enough to check!) (And yes, Marie acknowledged that that was his full name.)
So, getting back to when she said, NSW - in the back of my mind, I've gone Beauty! this will be easy to check . . .
(as you know, you can check all NSW deaths, online, up to (now) 1987)
Of course, I did this soon after I left: He's just NOT THERE - whether as Eugene Francis, or Eugene, or Francis, or Frank - and I did the largest possible range: from 1948 to 1987. Frustratingly the brother Bill (and I think Marie happened to mention "Bill also died in NSW")
IS there - in a 1981 NSW death record, as William John, to the parents we know: William John/Rose (Rafferty)
So what happened?
(I also checked Qld, just in case - no luck there.)
Did he die, maybe, in the ACT? (I don't think you can check those, online)
OR!!!! - when he went to NSW, did he either officially or unofficially, adopt a new name?
To, maybe, escape from those issues he'd had with the law, in Victoria. (We know, of course, it's online, about the court case he had, reported in The Age of May 14, 1953)
And then die there, under that name?
Anyway, that's all speculation for now - but I'm hoping it will be resolved soon.
Because, both Marie and Julie said, Robyn - as above - I think, cousin of Julie, and niece of Marie (and thru Iris - Frank being her uncle) is the 'keen Collingwood fan' in the family.
I gave Julie both my and your details, and said we wanted, please, if possible -
- the date of Frank's death
- a picture of Frank in his Collingwood jumper, if anyone in the family has it (failing that, just a picture of Frank)
So Julie said she'd pass that on to Robyn, who hopefully will get in touch with one of us soon. Julie seemed confident, that she would.

So that's that for now.

 

[GreyCrow]

Eugene Francis Corby also used Jack Munro when in NSW. A Jack Munro appears before a County session below
Link to use of Munro http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article42470909

27 8 1954 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18431932

A Jack Munro died in NSW in 1967 parents named as Jack and Sarah (no age ascertained) . I make no claim this is him.

 

[GreyCrow]

I hope these are easier than the last lot!

Not a bad strike rate.
Prismall not yet
Bob Reid not yet
Sam Reid (maybe)
Les Richards I think is Lachlan Richards died 1930
Jack Richardson is knocked off ( imo)
Albert Tasman Roberts pre-1953 need notice
Archibald Robinson ( after my error) I think he may be a lost soul. Either changed his name to escape court costs or lost to the system through personal neglect.

I also think there will be those who die after records are sealed who may need to be found in other ways. But the names are there for now and the future

 

[GreyCrow]

First batch of Missing DOD for players

John Anderson (b: 31/5/1888) (Essendon - 1907 - 1 game) . One of his original clubs was Essendon District

Did we resolve a middle name if any for this gentleman? I ask as I have found a possibility. John Anderson no middle name born 1888 to John and Jane ( Taylor)
EventBirth Event registration number20114 Registration year1888
Personal information
Family nameANDERSON Given names John Father's name John Mother's name Jane (Taylor) Place of birth ESSENDON

There is a corresponding death in WA BDM in 1957 aged 69 ie 1888 parents name John and Jane.
Anderson John Male 69 John Jane E Perth 2160 1957 (note no middle name)

Henry "Harry" John Barr (b: 11/1/1880) (StKilda - 1898 - 3 games) . From Footscray VFA Juniors

Are we using the death from 1909 on the shipping tragedy?

 

[rbartlett]

Just for your reference I've discovered who A "Chook" Davidson was for Richmond 1899-1902.
1928 Annual Report lists his death. A search brings up Alfred Charles "Chook" Davidson b 1881, d 1928.
My site did originally consider him to perhaps be the Alex M Davidson who played for Fitzroy, but that is no longer that case.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

 

[rbartlett]

Just an update from Stephen Ro regarding Corby

"Peter Marshall has spoken to that Robyn (remember, in my longish email) -

about the Frank Corby case. Robyn apparently will get the date-of-death, and pass it on (maybe even this weekend)

(also had a pic of him, in his Coll jumper - so that was a bonus, for Peter and Michael)

And, yep - she intimated, the complete 'untraceability' of the Eugene Francis Corby name was to avoid being traced by the law.

So all that detective work was worth it!"

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Just an update from Stephen Ro regarding Corby

"Peter Marshall has spoken to that Robyn (remember, in my longish email) -

about the Frank Corby case. Robyn apparently will get the date-of-death, and pass it on (maybe even this weekend)

(also had a pic of him, in his Coll jumper - so that was a bonus, for Peter and Michael)

And, yep - she intimated, the complete 'untraceability' of the Eugene Francis Corby name was to avoid being traced by the law.

So all that detective work was worth it!"

This Corby must be the most researched fella of the batch of names.

Edging closer to this finish line I say.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

This Corby must be the most researched fella of the batch of names.

Edging closer to this finish line I say.

A lot of work, but an interesting case study and several lessons learnt on searching, and how data was not/recorded.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Harry Hook]

A lot of work, but an interesting case study and several lessons learnt on searching, and how data was not/recorded.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Another example of how if a player did not want to be found, he made sure he was not, not in any way different to Dick Casey.

 

[GreyCrow]

*James "Jim" Malone - NthMelb 1945-52 . B: 13/11/1925 Orig club Flemington CYMS. WW2 Army Brother of Jack (Footscray), and Joe STILL ALIVE AS OF 2011 ACCORDING TO NTH MELB.

Further to this a thesis on Dick Reynolds brought up reminiscences of Jim Malone and source notes indicates these were from private communications in 2013. It may pay to chase up the author and see if an address could be arranged.

As this is available on the net I shall print the link http://vuir.vu.edu.au/22310/1/Daniel Eddy.pdf page 59 for source note.

 

[GreyCrow]

SIXTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD

William "Bill" Joseph O'Brien - StK 1910-11 (B: 27/9/1887) Orig Club: Williamstown . WW2 Army

Some tighter research may be needed on this one but I present the following based on the WW2 record as noted above.

Date of Birth 27 Sep 1887
Place of Birth ELMHURST, VIC
Date of Enlistment 3 Jul 1942
Locality on Enlistment MANDAMAH, NSW
Place of Enlistment ARIAH PARK, NSW
Next of Kin O'BRIEN, ADA
Date of Discharge 25 Sep 1945

Note the bold. Using 1945 as a living point there is nothing that jumps out on NSW BDM. But Trove has this http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18270198 an Estate notice for a William Joseph O'Brien of Mandamah Ariah Park NSW to his WIDOW Ada ( note NOK)

There doesnt seem to be any Family Notices nor the BDM record. The Estate notice is from 25/6/1952.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Some tighter research may be needed on this one but I present the following based on the WW2 record as noted above.

Date of Birth 27 Sep 1887
Place of Birth ELMHURST, VIC
Date of Enlistment 3 Jul 1942
Locality on Enlistment MANDAMAH, NSW
Place of Enlistment ARIAH PARK, NSW
Next of Kin O'BRIEN, ADA
Date of Discharge 25 Sep 1945

Note the bold. Using 1945 as a living point there is nothing that jumps out on NSW BDM. But Trove has this http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18270198 an Estate notice for a William Joseph O'Brien of Mandamah Ariah Park NSW to his WIDOW Ada ( note NOK)

There doesnt seem to be any Family Notices nor the BDM record. The Estate notice is from 25/6/1952.

This helped a lot - must have taken a while for probate to be granted as he died in 1943 (parents names match Vic BDM birth entry)

Name William Joseph Obrien
Death Date 1943
Death Place New South Wales
Father's Name Patrick
Mother's Name Ellen Jane
Registration Year 1943
Registration Place Temora New South Wales
Registration Number 5993

and https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=144902312&ref=acom gives his date of death as 18 Jan 1943 (curiously well before his discharge from the Army)

 

[GreyCrow]

This helped a lot - must have taken a while for probate to be granted as he died in 1943 (parents names match Vic BDM birth entry)

Name William Joseph Obrien
Death Date 1943
Death Place New South Wales
Father's Name Patrick
Mother's Name Ellen Jane
Registration Year 1943
Registration Place Temora New South Wales
Registration Number 5993

and https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=144902312&ref=acom gives his date of death as 18 Jan 1943 (curiously well before his discharge from the Army)

No wonder I couldnt find a death notice. I narrowed my search after 1945. Thank you for finding it and clearing it up

 

[rbartlett]

No wonder I couldnt find a death notice. I narrowed my search after 1945. Thank you for finding it and clearing it up

I've added this entry to my S Rodgers email

 

[rbartlett]

we then find this
1965 B77917 Jack Elliott Richardson Francis Gordon Richardson Gertrude

I'll add this to my email as well

 

[rbartlett]

Well done, you've certainly found the L Richards b1901 d1930.
In Vic BDMs Lachlan Adrian Russel Richards reg #5396 in 1901 parents David & Cath (nee Cunningham) in Murumbeena district.

Death notice in The Argus mid-April 1930 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4081266
youngest son of David and Catherine Richards, ...late of Oakleigh and Cowangie
...and the one inserted by his friends uses the nickname "Lofty" -
press reports of his play describe him as a hefty sized ruckman.

...and I see that mid-June 1928 has the permit ref for him to go from
North Melbourne to Oakleigh, which ties in with that location mentioned in his death notice.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202300234

Am I submitting this Richards one as a solution ?

 

[GreyCrow]

Am I submitting this Richards one as a solution ?

Offer it as a solution not as THE solution

 

[GreyCrow]

EIGHTEENTH MISSING DOD BATCH

Francis "Frank" Cecil O'Connor (Melb 1947-48) b: 6/11/1923 Orig Club Prahran. WW2 Army
Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan ( Stk 1897) b: 22/1/1878 Orig Club University
*George Henry Prismall (Ess 1935) (b: 10/3/1915) Orig club Brunswick
*Robert "Bob" Reid (Footscray 1948-49) b: 8/6/1924 Orig club Montmorency
Samuel Alexander Reid (Carl 1897) b:17/6/1872 Orig club Hawthorn

These are already in post #307

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks. I've deleted.
Will post new batch shortly

 

[rbartlett]

EIGHTEENTH MISSING DOB BATCH

Raymond Paul Ross - Ess 1921. dob 2/5/1900 orig club st pauls ascot vale
John "Jack" Rosser - Ess 1903 dob dob 6/5/1884 orig club newtown (possibly found, see later posts)
Alan James "Ginger" Ryan - Melb 1932-33, Coll 1934-38 dob 26/9/1909 orig club Preston (possibly died 1980) \
Edward "Ed" John Ryan - Fitz 1926. dob 19/8/1902 orig club Sale
John "Johnny" Patrick Ryan - Rich 1959 dob 18/9/1938 orig club Sale (note from Rhett. Tigerland Archive , using 'Tigers of Old' book, says he was running a dairy farm up in Fish Creek at the time of publication. Which is circa 1995)
Ted P. Ryan - Footscray 1945. dob 14/6/1925 orig club Oakleigh (unsure of middle name)

 

[RedmanWasHere]

John "Jack" Rosser - Ess 1903 dob dob 6/5/1884 orig club newtown

Ancestry has a John Rosser born in 1884 (no date) in Balaclava or St Kilda, Victoria and dying in 1932 (25-02-1932) leaving a wife Mary (Bottoms her maiden name) and 5 kids, one who died as a baby.

It also has his death place as Newport, Victoria.