Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[rbartlett]

Looks like one of our "names" slipped through the net back in February. Found thanks to entry on the Ryerson Index.

Lionel Charles Upton listed in the Herald Sun on 25 Feb 2019
“Passed away peacefully on Thursday, February 21, aged 94 years.
Dearly beloved husband of Jean (dec)….”

in 1949 electoral roll for seat of Melbourne in sub-district of Newmarket
there is a Lionel Charles Upton with address of 4 Chatham Street, fitter
and at same address Jean Beattie Upton, home duties.

Vic BDMs have a marriage in 1947 for them [her maiden name Soutter] #4843/1947

ping WhiteHartLane23 to add to spreadsheet for Stephen R/Col H

 

[rbartlett]

So Stephen Rodgers has sent me a handwritten note advising of a 'very slow, non-urgent, put-it-on-the-backburner' type of exercise.
Incredibly, The AFL only has 5-10% of middle names for AFL players from 2000 - 2018.
In the off-season he will revisit the list and contact the relevant schools where they were recruited from, to obtain their full names.
In the meantime, if you come across middle names of players feel free to advise (perhaps DM me incase the list gets too big).

He's given me a 50page printed spreadsheet of every player and handwritten in the middle names he has.
So if you want a copy of that huge spreadsheet, DM me , and I'll run it through the photocopy and mail it to you.

I dont think we need to put any ones we find on the WhiteHartLane spreadsheet as we will be here for ever.

 

[Gibbsy]

So Stephen Rodgers has sent me a handwritten note advising of a 'very slow, non-urgent, put-it-on-the-backburner' type of exercise.
Incredibly, The AFL only has 5-10% of middle names for AFL players from 2000 - 2018.
In the off-season he will revisit the list and contact the relevant schools where they were recruited from, to obtain their full names.
In the meantime, if you come across middle names of players feel free to advise (perhaps DM me incase the list gets too big).

He's given me a 50page printed spreadsheet of every player and handwritten in the middle names he has.
So if you want a copy of that huge spreadsheet, DM me , and I'll run it through the photocopy and mail it to you.

I dont think we need to put any ones we find on the WhiteHartLane spreadsheet as we will be here for ever.

Crazy but somewhat unsurprising. What does it look like pre-2000? Better, I’d hope?

 

[GreyCrow]

Adelaide Football Club current and some past list (SA Born players)

*all sourced from publically available websites and sourced from newspapers at the time of birth

Bryce Leigh Gibbs
Rory Fitzgerald Laird
Sam Jacobs looks to have no middle name
Scott Thompson looks to have no middle name
Brodie Francis Smith
Riley Thomas Knight
Luke Lee Brown
Matthew John Jaensch
Mitchell Raymond Grigg
Brodie Daniel Martin
Andrew James McPherson


Just as an option, the AFL put out a player survey, maybe thats the format to ask for full name

 

[the croucher]

So Stephen Rodgers has sent me a handwritten note advising of a 'very slow, non-urgent, put-it-on-the-backburner' type of exercise.
Incredibly, The AFL only has 5-10% of middle names for AFL players from 2000 - 2018.
In the off-season he will revisit the list and contact the relevant schools where they were recruited from, to obtain their full names.
In the meantime, if you come across middle names of players feel free to advise (perhaps DM me incase the list gets too big).

He's given me a 50page printed spreadsheet of every player and handwritten in the middle names he has.
So if you want a copy of that huge spreadsheet, DM me , and I'll run it through the photocopy and mail it to you.

I dont think we need to put any ones we find on the WhiteHartLane spreadsheet as we will be here for ever.

Very puzzling. Why doesn't he just go to the AFL office files and check the registration form each player has presumably filled in ?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Benjamin Luke Cousins.
Christopher Dylan Judd.
Albert Bartlett Bickford.
Leon Francis Rice.
Billy Barnard Longer.
Justin Robert Aloysius Michael McDuff Koschitzke.

Source: Here.

 

[35Daicos]

Surely not?! The AFL having a record of which foot players kicked with has to be more important than them knowing the full name of players?!!!

 

[rbartlett]

I hear ya all. Just passing on what I received in the mail (out of the blue).
Ive asked Rodgers about any registration forms that the AFL would have.
But I'm beginning to sense they have nothing

 

[ThePope]

Most WAFL players have their middle names listed on the http://waflfootyfacts.net/player/all.php website.

 

[ThePope]

Most WAFL players have their middle names listed on the http://waflfootyfacts.net/player/all.php website.

I am starting to wonder if, especially for living players, are we going too far?

Most 18 year old yet to be drafted players have their dates of birth published. Now we are talking middle names. I know that this is mainly a question for sites like AustralianFootball.com, waflfootystats, draft websites or the Footy Record, and indirectly for all Wikipedia editors or list publishers elsewhere/here, but when does limiting the risk of invasion of privacy step in?

I understand that in sports like cricket, it is traditional to know, and refer to players by their full initials, and publishing dates of birth is also common, but does anyone know of any sportsman who's been the victim of identity theft from this public release of personal info?

Imagine being Jack Silvangi dealing with a bank over the phone. The whole football world knows his DOB, mother's maiden name, schools attended, could probably even find his dog's name with a bit of digging.

Rhett is probably more in tune with this that anyone else- did you have to take any extra precautions with your privacy?

 

[35Daicos]

Something to chase up if someone has a spare $33

NZ BDM has a death of a Thomas Francis Lee aged 83 in 1957

1957/25842 Lee Thomas Francis 83Y this gives an approximate Birth date of 1874

I searched on births for 1872 to 1880 and no TF Lee turned up. Certainly not a clincher but as I have not (yet) found a death in Australia that looks to match I think its an option

The certificate costs $33 to obtain

I've just been having another look at Tom (Thomas Francis) Lee and this came up: https://www.otago.ac.nz/history/nzic/immigrants/l.html



The Collingwood player was born in Victoria, so this suggests the chap who died in NZ in 1957 is probably not our man!

 

[GreyCrow]

I've just been having another look at Tom (Thomas Francis) Lee and this came up: https://www.otago.ac.nz/history/nzic/immigrants/l.html
View attachment 716575
View attachment 716576

The Collingwood player was born in Victoria, so this suggests the chap who died in NZ in 1957 is probably not our man!

Thank you . Does it have a place in Ireland or just Ireland

 

[35Daicos]

Thank you . Does it have a place in Ireland or just Ireland

What I posted is all there is from what I can see.

 

[rbartlett]

David 'Jack' McConchie (in the book).

There's a few cases of him being called Jack McConchie on Trove, but many more where it's Jock (including when he got married) or "Jock". The Football Record has Jack McConchie on one occasion, and the AFL Historical Statistics website had him as Jack.

From BDM Vic.
Event Birth
Event registration number 14416
Registration year 1910

Personal information
Family name MCCONCHIE
Given names David John
Sex Male
Father's name David Roy
Mother's name Ethel Ellen (Rudd)
Place of birth RICHMOND

I've been contacted by a family friend of the McConchie tree who says he's adamant he should be recognised as Jock McConchie, not Jack McConchie.
As per Daics research above, does everyone agree that a note should be sent off to the AFL to suggest it becomes Jock not Jack.

 

[35Daicos]

I've been contacted by a family friend of the McConchie tree who says he's adamant he should be recognised as Jock McConchie, not Jack McConchie.
As per Daics research above, does everyone agree that a note should be sent off to the AFL to suggest it becomes Jock not Jack.

Sounds reasonable to me!

 

[the croucher]

I've been contacted by a family friend of the McConchie tree who says he's adamant he should be recognised as Jock McConchie, not Jack McConchie.
As per Daics research above, does everyone agree that a note should be sent off to the AFL to suggest it becomes Jock not Jack.

Yes, I agree, go with Jock as name.

 

[GreyCrow]

Having full access to British Newspapers .com I have been looking at some names. If you want some looked up let me know

Robert Ritchie Craig was born in Williamstown in 1882 to John Harkes Craig and Christina Campbell Ritchie.
In April 1901 he is recorded in the Scottish census as living at 38 Queen St, Stirling, Scotland with his parents (place of birth listed as Australia) - occupation law apprentice.
Makes me wonder if he is actually the Craig who played - I haven't been able to find evidence of him returning to Australia.

His brother Andrew Dunmore Hunter Craig 1888 is listed as passing in 1982 with same parents gravesite at Dromana

https://billiongraves.com/grave/Andrew-Dunmore-Hunter-Craig/4024047

I can find births of Norman Leslie and Robert Ritchie Craig but no deaths. I have just seen a geni page that suggests Robert Ritchie went to Argentina and am following that up

John Harkes Craig is listed on ScotlandsPeople as passing in 1906 in Stirling and Christina Campbell Craig as passing in Stirling in 1939 aged 94

Great to have that clue about Argentina !

Ancestry site has a ref to a Robert R Craig (a cattleman, aged 30) leaving Liverpool on board the Rossetti on 19 July 1913 bound for
River Plate, Argentina ! Also noted that the country of intended future permanent residence is Scotland.

So this last quote is interesting. I say that as there is a marriage notice and this is the text of the clipping

At Stirling, the 22nd December, Robert Ritchie Craig, solicitor, S. Quarter-Master Sergt. Ist Reserve Regiment Scottish Horse, to Margaret, youngest daughter of R. A. Donaldson, tailor and clothier, Berwick-on-Tweed

The interesting part is that this marriage was in December 1914. There is also another marriage in 1909 to an Isabel Donaldson : both in Stirling where census and info supplied strongly suggests the Craig family lived

There is no death listed ( as yet to be found) for a Robert Ritchie Craig in Scotland. It may be under Robert Craig alone and that will be another search

 

[GreyCrow]

Herald Sun Tributes and St Kilda notice from June says Les passed away , must have been close to May 30 as the first notice was posted May 31 by family members

GARDNER. Les The St Kilda Football Club and Past Players & Officials Association mourns the passing of former player Les Gardner. Our sincere condolences are extended to the Gardner family. Farewell Saint Les

Anybody in Melbourne for a little drive?

http://www.boroniabowls.org/images/stories/pdf_files/toucher_topics/toucher_topics_0912.pdf

Shirley and Les Gardner celebrate 60 happy years together Shirley and Les Gardner had a special celebration on Thursday 3 December. That day marked the 60th anniversary of their wedding at Williamstown on Saturday 3 December 1949. To mark this occasion our VLBA teams waited after pennant on 1 December to congratulate Shirley on this marvelous landmark in her life with Les.

Boronia Bowls club newsletter talking about the 60th wedding anniversary for Les and Shirley. I am confident it is Leslie Harold and Shirley Edith Aylott from this notice

Registration year 1949 Personal information Family name GARDNER Given names Leslie Harold
Spouse's family name AYLOTT Spouse's given names Shirley Edith

A birthday message for Shirley in 2014 http://www.boroniabowls.org/images/stories/pdf_files/toucher_topics/toucher_topics_1411.pdf

I cant find a Tribute notice ( Herald Sun only) from 2014 on so the assumption is they are still alive.

Thoughts?

His name hasn't appeared in the Obituaries section of the AFL Season Guide (2015-2018), and St Kilda thought he was still going at about that time ^ (late 2014), so hopefully he still is!: http://www.saints.com.au/news/2014-12-12/the-oldest-living-saint-bob-dawson

As far as the club is aware, Dawson is one of three former Saints aged 90 or over.

Les Gardner (September 30, 1923) is almost three years his junior, while John Curtin (November 8, 1924) turned 90 last month.

Gardner played the first three matches of the 1947 season, while Curtin was selected for rounds one and two but never played for the Saints again.

Updated 23 August 2019


<snip> still to be found

32 *Harry Leslie "Les" Gardner b:30/9/1923 StK 1947 alive 2014 passed away May 2019
6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016
7 *Ronald "Ron" Arthur Bickley b:21/10/1926 Fitz 1949-1951 alive #post 561 April 2 2018
13 *Alfred Joseph Callick b:14/8/1925 SthMelb 1943,1946-1950 alive in 2016
36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017
68 *James "Jim" Malone b:13/11/1925 NthMelb 1945-52 still living as of March 29 2018


11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902
33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904
34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898
52 *Geoffrey John Kerr b:7/4/1925 Stk 1945;1947
53 *James "Jim" Francis Kirby b:21/12/1922 NthM 1946
54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903 Died Prior 1918
74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899
75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942
76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906
105 *Stanley Vincent Smith b:17/4/1925 Coll 1947-50
110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909

 

[ThePope]

Just found a surprisingly overlooked death. Maurie Lyon, Ross's dad, died on 16 December 2014.

We know that Ross kept his private and work life separate, but he wasn't even in the AFL's 2015 season guide obituaries list.

Oliver Gigacz, please update AustralianFootball

 

[Oliver G]

Just found a surprisingly overlooked death. Maurie Lyon, Ross's dad, died on 16 December 2014.

We know that Ross kept his private and work life separate, but he wasn't even in the AFL's 2015 season guide obituaries list.

Oliver Gigacz, please update AustralianFootball

Yeah that is an odd one, AF has been updated.

 

[ThePope]

Alby Yeo, 5 games for Ess in 1958, Glenelg & West Adelaide before that, is listed as being born on 6 November 1933 everywhere, but was almost certainly actually born in 1929.
This list in 1953 has him aged 23.
FindaGrave also lists him as being born on 6/11/1929.

And his death on 10 June 2014 hasn't seemed to be recorded anywhere.

Oliver Gigacz *Paul*

 

[Oliver G]

Alby Yeo, 5 games for Ess in 1958, Glenelg & West Adelaide before that, is listed as being born on 6 November 1933 everywhere, but was almost certainly actually born in 1929.
This list in 1953 has him aged 23.
FindaGrave also lists him as being born on 6/11/1929.

And his death on 10 June 2014 hasn't seemed to be recorded anywhere.

Oliver Gigacz *Paul*

Thanks, done.

 

[ThePope]

And another.
Ross Ousley, 1956–58 23 games for Carlton.
Appears to have died on 14 May 1993. See Family Search and Billiongraves

 

[35Daicos]

And another.
Ross Ousley, 1956–58 23 games for Carlton.
Appears to have died on 14 May 1993. See Family Search and Billiongraves

These guys obviously weren't aware of it!: https://spiritofcarlton.com.au/2017/03/03/ross-ousleys-80th/

 

[ThePope]

And another.
Phil Rochow, 1 game for Fitzroy in 1957. died on 26 December 2013 according to this death notice.


Probably should let the Fitzroy-Brisbane Lions Historical Society know