My List Assessment

[4#Didak#4]

Collingwood is at an interesting period in its history, with a very young list how are we positioned going forward? What holes do we need filled? This is where I see each players future at the club. We have some wonderfully versatile players who can play back,forward & mid - this is a huge strength so I have named them in their primary position with their secondary option in brackets.

Ruled Out of future plans:
Presti, Wakes, Lockyer, Rocca, O'Bree, Burns, Holland.
All these have years left in them but we need to be planning past them now.

Backs: Brown, Harry O, Goldsack, Reid (fwd), Heater, R. Shaw (mid), Maxwell (utility!)

Forwards: Cloke, Dawes, Anthony (back), Rusling, Dick, Medhurst, Macaffer (I think he will be very dangerous)

Midfield Rotation: Didak (fwd), Swan (fwd), Thomas(fwd), Pendles(fwd), Davis (fwd), Marty Clarke, McCarthy, Wellingham

Rucks: Fraser(fwd), Wood, Bryan

The above 24 I believe will be able to compete for our best 22 going forward.

????: B. Johnson, Cook, Stanley, Egan, Cox, Iles, Toovey, Lonie
These guys I worry about and are on the fringe but provide great depth when required. Harsh on Johno but am being realistic for the future. Cox is the one who may be able to step up and fill a role.

Untested: Barham, Thoolen and throw in Dyas.
To early to tell with these guys.

What is our problem area:
Backs are very, very thin. Have included Reid there as there is no one else on the current list other than maybe Thoolen or Cox who could step up to a CHB role. Anthony will go back at some point also - perhaps both need to be back. Presti & Wakes have been holding this key area together and hiding this problem thats is about to arise. Already this year we have been savaged by good forward lines and this will continue if not get worse. We need to be searching for a key experienced back in the trade period - unfortunately rare as hens teeth. Not sure we can recruit one & wait for them to develop. Brown & Harry O will be great but they will need help.

Rucks still look poor. We need Wood to hurry up & develop, but it takes time with the big guys. Possibly need to recruit another young ruck for some insurance as Fraser, Wood & Bryan are far from safe bets. Maybe poach someone like Bailey from the Hawks.

Mids are much better than I was initially fearing. If Davis can continue as a class midfielder, Clarke step up, Wellingham & McCarthy develop we have a dangerous midfield hard to shut down. We do need a Burns/O'Bree replacement for the clearances & hard ball gets, but now would not be prepared to pay the high price for Kerr. Perhaps Prismal could now be a steal or Daniel Harris could do that sort of job. Otherwise back to Hines in this draft to find a hard in & under ball getter.

Strengths:
We do have great depth, this year has proved this. Even with some key departures expected we should be able to maintain depth with smart recruiting.

Our forward line has me frothing at the mouth. I am confident no one will be able to shut that group down when you look at the mids who will also run through there. A combination of marking power, pace, defensive pressure, flexibility and lots of magic makes this an impressive line up. Injury permitting we should be kicking plenty of goals.

Midfield run, pace & skill is a key in the modern game. Hard to find a better combination of this than Didak, Davis, Thomas, Swan & Pendles.

Overall:
We are well positioned to set ourselves up for success over the next 5 years. However plenty of work to be done in key areas mainly the backs. If there is a weak link in the chain it will always be your undoing so need to fix those areas ASAP. All the best sides in history have had rock solid defenses.

 

[Punchy Demons]

Having just read your opinion on the Collingwood list, I would like to throw up a tarde possibilty with you guys.

I am a Melbourne supporter & it is going to many years before we are ready to challenge for finals and then hopefully a premiership.
Bailey said that he wouldn't give up our first three draft picks that we have but I'm sure he would be open to the idea of trading picks 17 & 19 or one of them along with a player to boost ourselves higher into the first round.

My intial thoughts were to use teams (Bris, Nth, Adel) that have already finished there season but for the sake of this argument lets go with two different scenario's. Pies lose this week & Pies losing next week. That would give you either draft picks 11 or 13.

For example:
We trade pick 17 & Green or Bruce to either Brisbane, North, Adel or Collingwood.

in return

We gain pick 7(Bris), 9 (North) 10 (Adel) 11 or 13 (Pies) along with a third round selection being 41(Bris), 43(North) 44 (Adel) 45 or 47 (Pies).

We get an earlier 1st round pick along with a mid range 3rd round pick, to go with our priority of getting young talent

You gain a late 1st round pick, a very good versatile established player in your quest for premiership glory who has at least 3 - 4 years left in them.

Any thoughts??

 

[mattys123]

Think you'd have more chance of a trade with Adelaide, Brisbane or Nth, Collingwood wont trade its 1st round pick, cause if we are going to trade, we have Heath Shaw, Rhcye Shaw and possibly Didak on offer. We too are still reliant on drafting youth, and i doubt we will trade our 1st pick.

Trade green or bruce to brisbane, already seen they were dumb enough to trade for johnstone.

 

[well left]

As handy as I think Bruce and Green are, I do not think they fit our needs at this point in time - they do not fix our deficiencies and I think they are probably a little too old for us.

If you want our first rounder, we'd have to be talking about one of Jones, McLean or Sylvia who I reckon are just about untouchables in your case.

 

[smiddaz123]

Sylvia? wtf? coughdudcough

 

[well left]

Sylvia? wtf? coughdudcough

I still think he has some talent - I actually think we could turn him around a bit like Medhurst.

A 1st rounder would probably be too much but I reckon there is something there to work with.

 

[Quicky]

Pretty spot on mate. I'd have a few changes though:

Back: Anthony (fwd)
Mid: Clarke (Back) Cox (Back)
Fwd: Reid (Back)

I think you are underrating Cox a bit. Has looked really solid since he cracked back in the team, lots of posessions and importantly uses them very well with his great kicking. I know people criticise him for being soft but I think he's shown in patches that he can be a goer too - still only a second year player so plenty of improvement in him. I can see him playing off the HBF next year (hopefully with a bit more development, improved accountability over the preseason) sort of playing in Clarkes position from this year. This would help Clarkes progression in the midfield and help address our need for a bit more class in midfield.

 

[mdc]

^^^
Agree that Cox is definitely in our plans going forward, immensely talented player. Still hoping he can really build up an endurance base this off-season and play an Andrew Embley type role for us.

Dick should be nowhere near that list. Has shown nothing at any level, there's no telling whether his body will ever get to the requisite size, and he's coming off a knee reco. McCaffer is also a giant question mark, as good as he's looked.

Yes, we need to add depth to the back-line, but it's not as bad as you make it sound. I believe Harry is a future All-Australian. Ditto for Heater. Brown is already very capable. Maxwell is a handy defender.

If you think about the year we've had, the only 2 big players who've given us headaches are Franklin and Fevola. Well, they're pretty handy forwards, so there's no shame in that. We also often get burnt by crumbing forwards, which is why I'd like to see a back pocket player added asap.

After that, we need to see if we can pick up an honest, average FB like Wakelin late in the draft, or maybe start moulding Goldsack to eventually play that role.

 

[shawthing09]

I think MDC has it pretty spot on, I am not as sure on Cox but think if he can get fit and play an Embely type wing and utility role he has great potential.

Agree Dick shouldn't be near the list. The other thing is with our up and coming midfield we are building one with a good balance of being able to win the ball and use it. Dick would mess this up as I think with his frame he will always be very outside. Which means he has to play on a Flank / Foward pocket which we are pretty well stocked for.

Am also unsure on Maccaffer. Undersized fowards without great pace tend to struggle. Plays a similar role to medhurst too. I have said it a few times but Aaron Edwards is a good example of how hard the transistion from VFL to AFL can be for undersized KP fowards.

Doubt Goldy will ever have the size about him to play at FB strength wise. Although I would love to be wrong

Agree with our backline not being as big a problem as people make out. I still think JA will end up down back. Between him Harry and Brown we have a match up for all kinds of foward duos. I think with JA's Kicking ability and Harry O's dash it will ease our reliance on Heater to set up the rebound and allow him to play that back pocket type role we need.

I still think there is a deffinate need for another good inside ball winer with good skills in the midfield.

 

[4#Didak#4]

Pretty spot on mate. I'd have a few changes though:

Back: Anthony (fwd)
Mid: Clarke (Back) Cox (Back)
Fwd: Reid (Back)

I think you are underrating Cox a bit. Has looked really solid since he cracked back in the team, lots of posessions and importantly uses them very well with his great kicking. I know people criticise him for being soft but I think he's shown in patches that he can be a goer too - still only a second year player so plenty of improvement in him. I can see him playing off the HBF next year (hopefully with a bit more development, improved accountability over the preseason) sort of playing in Clarkes position from this year. This would help Clarkes progression in the midfield and help address our need for a bit more class in midfield.

I probably am, but has only played 3 or 4 this year and yet to show he can cement his place. But a big night on Saturday might just do that! He is a useful player who like Egan if they can fulfil their potential they will be great but to many "ifs" around them.

With Marty I think we need him as a full time midfielder in a few years time. At the moment he is still learning the game & half back is a good place for him to do this, but he has shown as recently as last week he can be a damaging hard running midfielder given time.

 

[4#Didak#4]

I think MDC has it pretty spot on, I am not as sure on Cox but think if he can get fit and play an Embely type wing and utility role he has great potential. Lets hope so.

Agree Dick shouldn't be near the list. The other thing is with our up and coming midfield we are building one with a good balance of being able to win the ball and use it. Dick would mess this up as I think with his frame he will always be very outside. Which means he has to play on a Flank / Foward pocket which we are pretty well stocked for. We need to think past just next year (doubt he will get a game next year) but he fits our forward plans for a true crumber beneath Cloke & co without having to pull guys like Didak & Davis out of the midfield.

Am also unsure on Maccaffer. Undersized fowards without great pace tend to struggle. Plays a similar role to medhurst too. I have said it a few times but Aaron Edwards is a good example of how hard the transistion from VFL to AFL can be for undersized KP fowards. True he does seem similar to Medhurst but is one who can slot in to the forward line if required - may not be in our best 22 but he also needs a few years under his belt.

Doubt Goldy will ever have the size about him to play at FB strength wise. Although I would love to be wrong Agree.

Agree with our backline not being as big a problem as people make out. I still think JA will end up down back. Between him Harry and Brown we have a match up for all kinds of foward duos. I think with JA's Kicking ability and Harry O's dash it will ease our reliance on Heater to set up the rebound and allow him to play that back pocket type role we need. I think JA is going to be much more valueable than we all though to start with. Regarded as our next FB but now has shown he has more strings to his bow. Given our backline needs he probably will go back but if we recruit smartly he can give us great flexibility & more options down back. At the moment we don't have a plan B if someone is toweling us up or if we have injuries down back to say a Harry or Brown.

I still think there is a deffinate need for another good inside ball winer with good skills in the midfield.No doubt. [/quote]


Remember this is not about this year or next year its about the next five years & identifying players who will fit our best structure.

 

[shawthing09]

I personally don't see Didak as a midfielder and think he has been played there out of need more so then because that is his best position. I hope that the midfield working well without him mean that next year he will return to his most damaging position as a HFF. That said I am hoping the Thomas is moved into the midfield so there may be a spot for him as a crumber.

I agree that JA's versatility will be great an there should probably be a plan B. I think Maxwell, Harry and Brown have all been given some big jobs over the year aswell as Goldsack and Anthony I think we have a few options. Thoolen and LCL too could argueably be gambles as back KPB. I do agree that another KPB is on our wish list but I don't think it is dire.

I agree the Caff has earnt more time. I am hopefull but not confident with him. He is certainly smart and has a sound pair of hands. Not sure whether that's enough at AFL level.

 

[chunk_master]

Collingwood is at an interesting period in its history, with a very young list how are we positioned going forward? What holes do we need filled? This is where I see each players future at the club. We have some wonderfully versatile players who can play back,forward & mid - this is a huge strength so I have named them in their primary position with their secondary option in brackets.

Ruled Out of future plans:
Presti, Wakes, Lockyer, Rocca, O'Bree, Burns, Holland.
All these have years left in them but we need to be planning past them now.

Backs: Brown, Harry O, Goldsack, Reid (fwd), Heater, R. Shaw (mid), Maxwell (utility!)

Forwards: Cloke, Dawes, Anthony (back), Rusling, Dick, Medhurst, Macaffer (I think he will be very dangerous)

Midfield Rotation: Didak (fwd), Swan (fwd), Thomas(fwd), Pendles(fwd), Davis (fwd), Marty Clarke, McCarthy, Wellingham

Rucks: Fraser(fwd), Wood, Bryan

The above 24 I believe will be able to compete for our best 22 going forward.

????: B. Johnson, Cook, Stanley, Egan, Cox, Iles, Toovey, Lonie
These guys I worry about and are on the fringe but provide great depth when required. Harsh on Johno but am being realistic for the future. Cox is the one who may be able to step up and fill a role.

i'd had enuff after seeing this!!!!
coxy is gonna be a superstar... a bonafide superstar i tells ya

cooky played pretty well on the w/e... and thats finals footy baby yehhh

 

[well left]

i'd had enuff after seeing this!!!!
coxy is gonna be a superstar... a bonafide superstar i tells ya

cooky played pretty well on the w/e... and thats finals footy baby yehhh

I think he was right to have Cook and Cox as question marks but they should be in a separate question mark section with Wellingham and McCarthy.

They look to be more a part of future plans than Johnson, Lonie, Iles, Egan etc but these 4 (and probably Stanley) are still very early on in the careers.

 

[Punchy Demons]

i'd had enuff after seeing this!!!!
coxy is gonna be a superstar... a bonafide superstar i tells ya

cooky played pretty well on the w/e... and thats finals footy baby yehhh

I think someone has been drinking a little to early this morning!
He is an ok player, but to say that he is going to be a superstar is just plain outlandish. What has he done to make you even think that he is going to be a superstar????

 

[Quicky]

I probably am, but has only played 3 or 4 this year and yet to show he can cement his place. But a big night on Saturday might just do that! He is a useful player who like Egan if they can fulfil their potential they will be great but to many "ifs" around them.

With Marty I think we need him as a full time midfielder in a few years time. At the moment he is still learning the game & half back is a good place for him to do this, but he has shown as recently as last week he can be a damaging hard running midfielder given time.

Totally agree with you. I think Clarke is a massive part of our midfield puzzle and will make a huge difference to our side when he develops in there. He's had two years now developing in the back pocket, HBF and I think it is time that we gave him a permanent gig in the midfield/wing from next year. I've read interviews with him where he says he would like to be given the opportunity to be more creative/offensive with his footy and I think the midfield is the perfect place for him to do this. I think another year in the BP/HBF would stifle his development a bit. I can see him developing into an allround midfielder - good skills, decision making, quick, reads the play well and can get his own footy - in time.

 

[4#Didak#4]

Having just read your opinion on the Collingwood list, I would like to throw up a tarde possibilty with you guys.

I am a Melbourne supporter & it is going to many years before we are ready to challenge for finals and then hopefully a premiership.
Bailey said that he wouldn't give up our first three draft picks that we have but I'm sure he would be open to the idea of trading picks 17 & 19 or one of them along with a player to boost ourselves higher into the first round.

My intial thoughts were to use teams (Bris, Nth, Adel) that have already finished there season but for the sake of this argument lets go with two different scenario's. Pies lose this week & Pies losing next week. That would give you either draft picks 11 or 13.

For example:
We trade pick 17 & Green or Bruce to either Brisbane, North, Adel or Collingwood.

in return

We gain pick 7(Bris), 9 (North) 10 (Adel) 11 or 13 (Pies) along with a third round selection being 41(Bris), 43(North) 44 (Adel) 45 or 47 (Pies).

We get an earlier 1st round pick along with a mid range 3rd round pick, to go with our priority of getting young talent

You gain a late 1st round pick, a very good versatile established player in your quest for premiership glory who has at least 3 - 4 years left in them.

Any thoughts??

I don't think Melbourne could afford to lose a Green or Bruce effectively just for a draft order upgrade of 3 or 4 spots. I don't think either of them fit what we need, but I do like Bruce he is a quality player so if he is going cheap.....

 

[Punchy Demons]

I don't think Melbourne could afford to lose a Green or Bruce effectively just for a draft order upgrade of 3 or 4 spots. I don't think either of them fit what we need, but I do like Bruce he is a quality player so if he is going cheap.....

Your right to a point. Depending on your 1st round selection # it may be more appropriate for us to offer pick 19 rather than 17. At the moment I'm speculating as to what pick you will have.

With this trade though, Collingwood would effectively pick up either Bruce or Green for a 3rd round selection & a downgraded 1st round pick. I think I am at least being fair & reasonable not like some of the trades being thrown about.

 

[4#Didak#4]

Your right to a point. Depending on your 1st round selection # it may be more appropriate for us to offer pick 19 rather than 17. At the moment I'm speculating as to what pick you will have.

With this trade though, Collingwood would effectively pick up either Bruce or Green for a 3rd round selection & a downgraded 1st round pick. I think I am at least being fair & reasonable not like some of the trades being thrown about.

You are definitely being reasonable - I don't think Melbourne would offer this as a little to much experience lost to a young up & coming team.

We could use someone like Jones who at the moment is getting caned playing with the Dees and this won't change next year. He fits as an O'Bree/Burns type replacement any chance of him?

I think the Kangas would jump at the Bruce deal suits them well.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

On the whole, our list will probably remain about the same age on average. We will probably lose Wakelin (34), Johnson (27), R Shaw (27) and Holland (29), but the rest of our playing list all get one year older. In terms of our best 22 though, they probably do get a little younger.

This will also be off-set if we pick up Cousins (30) who would obviously be in our 22 from the outset.

 

[FIGJAM]

Has shown nothing at any level

A strong junior career, number of bests and goals for Williamstown, 3 goals on debut and one of the finest foot passers you will see.

Nothing to see here. Carry on!

 

[mdc]

A strong junior career, number of bests and goals for Williamstown, 3 goals on debut and one of the finest foot passers you will see.

Nothing to see here. Carry on!

2 goals on debut, a high of 11 possessions in 6 games, and his footskills didn't shine through (yet) at AFL level (3 goal assists from 15 inside-50's is fairly poor).

He's a third round pick who's coming back from a serious injury, so pardon me if I think it's premature to be including him as a lock for the future.

How was Egan looking 2 years ago?

 

[StillWaiting5689]

2 goals on debut, a high of 11 possessions in 6 games, and his footskills didn't shine through (yet) at AFL level (3 goal assists from 15 inside-50's is fairly poor).

He's a third round pick who's coming back from a serious injury, so pardon me if I think it's premature to be including him as a lock for the future.

How was Egan looking 2 years ago?

MDC you are quickly becoming one of my favourite collingwood posters, doses of reality getting handed out left right and centre.

 

[M-Train]

Collingwood is at an interesting period in its history, with a very young list how are we positioned going forward? What holes do we need filled? This is where I see each players future at the club. We have some wonderfully versatile players who can play back,forward & mid - this is a huge strength so I have named them in their primary position with their secondary option in brackets.

Ruled Out of future plans:
Presti, Wakes, Lockyer, Rocca, O'Bree, Burns, Holland.
All these have years left in them but we need to be planning past them now.

Backs: Brown, Harry O, Goldsack, Reid (fwd), Heater, R. Shaw (mid), Maxwell (utility!)

Forwards: Cloke, Dawes, Anthony (back), Rusling, Dick, Medhurst, Macaffer (I think he will be very dangerous)

Midfield Rotation: Didak (fwd), Swan (fwd), Thomas(fwd), Pendles(fwd), Davis (fwd), Marty Clarke, McCarthy, Wellingham

Rucks: Fraser(fwd), Wood, Bryan

The above 24 I believe will be able to compete for our best 22 going forward.

????: B. Johnson, Cook, Stanley, Egan, Cox, Iles, Toovey, Lonie
These guys I worry about and are on the fringe but provide great depth when required. Harsh on Johno but am being realistic for the future. Cox is the one who may be able to step up and fill a role.

Untested: Barham, Thoolen and throw in Dyas.
To early to tell with these guys.

What is our problem area:
Backs are very, very thin. Have included Reid there as there is no one else on the current list other than maybe Thoolen or Cox who could step up to a CHB role. Anthony will go back at some point also - perhaps both need to be back. Presti & Wakes have been holding this key area together and hiding this problem thats is about to arise. Already this year we have been savaged by good forward lines and this will continue if not get worse. We need to be searching for a key experienced back in the trade period - unfortunately rare as hens teeth. Not sure we can recruit one & wait for them to develop. Brown & Harry O will be great but they will need help.

Rucks still look poor. We need Wood to hurry up & develop, but it takes time with the big guys. Possibly need to recruit another young ruck for some insurance as Fraser, Wood & Bryan are far from safe bets. Maybe poach someone like Bailey from the Hawks.

Mids are much better than I was initially fearing. If Davis can continue as a class midfielder, Clarke step up, Wellingham & McCarthy develop we have a dangerous midfield hard to shut down. We do need a Burns/O'Bree replacement for the clearances & hard ball gets, but now would not be prepared to pay the high price for Kerr. Perhaps Prismal could now be a steal or Daniel Harris could do that sort of job. Otherwise back to Hines in this draft to find a hard in & under ball getter.

Strengths:
We do have great depth, this year has proved this. Even with some key departures expected we should be able to maintain depth with smart recruiting.

Our forward line has me frothing at the mouth. I am confident no one will be able to shut that group down when you look at the mids who will also run through there. A combination of marking power, pace, defensive pressure, flexibility and lots of magic makes this an impressive line up. Injury permitting we should be kicking plenty of goals.

Midfield run, pace & skill is a key in the modern game. Hard to find a better combination of this than Didak, Davis, Thomas, Swan & Pendles.

Overall:
We are well positioned to set ourselves up for success over the next 5 years. However plenty of work to be done in key areas mainly the backs. If there is a weak link in the chain it will always be your undoing so need to fix those areas ASAP. All the best sides in history have had rock solid defenses.

Great analysis..... I agree with most things you say..... however lets not kid ourselves, our side is riddled with inconsistencies. The win in Adelaide was absolutely terrific, but it should have been expected, as they had no one to kick their goals.

Our forward line is good, not great YET! Dawes and Anthony have been absolutely fantastic so far, but its still early days at the moment. I still think we need a proven star centre half forward to lead our team.... Would have loved Jonathan Brown, but he is history.

Our midfield is not up to scratch yet, we need a Pendlebury or Thomas to really step up and become Elite. Our backline is extremely solid.... Brown, Harry O, Goldsack, Maxwell and Heater provide the nucleus of a good backline. The only issue with our backline is who will replace Wakelin?

Go Pies!

 

[4#Didak#4]

On the back of our loss on Saturday I thought I would review my list assessment.

Hasn't really changed my opinion on anything, really just confirmed some things for me.

The backline once again didn't hold up and is a serious concern for me. We just need that extra mobile tall down back - yes I am talking about Reid. Reid given some time to develop would have been ideal in this role on Saturday night. Brown will be great but prefer him back controlling inside 50 rather than chasing big mobile guys around.

Cox did not really inspire me enough to make him an automatic selection, has all the attributes but has little application.

Obviously still one or two class players short in the middle, this will come with development of the youngsters like McCarthy but we do need to look at whats around in the trade period.

The forwards were excused on Saturday as our disposal to them was the worst I have seen all year. You could have had the AA forward line in their Saturday & we still would have lost.

Josh was good again, he needs to stay injury free & leaning toward him being our captain. He does need back up & Bryan is simply plugging a hole until/if Wood can come in & control that position.

I still think an experienced backman would be invalueable to this side in the short term to hold that leaking ship together. Problem is they are a rare commodity - not many people realise this. We need class midfielders but I think there is a lot more oppurtunities to snare one in trade or via the draft.

Much to the horror of most I would rather trade for a 22-25 y/old class defender than a class mid. We can rely on Hine to source another class mid, yound mids are ready to play seniors within 1 or 2 years - not so defenders. Problem is I cannot think of one decent defender who is available to trade for, so we will end up targeting a class mid & filling that hole while we play a bit thin down back until Brown, Reid & Anthony (Harry O is ready) are ready to take down the best forwards every week.