new role for waters?

[zing]

if waters can get back to afl level next year, how bout a new role off half fwd line, like a max rooke role? in the gf yesterday we saw how important rooke was in crashing packs and keeping the ball inside 50. we have plenty of half back flankers in team, lets have a new role for him

 

[beatlesmith]

I would be all for this if we didn't have such a deficiency in small defenders who can actually nullify a small forward. Guys like nicoski and davis can rebound, sure, but like wirra, are exposed as being too loose on their direct opponents.
We need someone down back to stop small forwards who have ravaged us so frequently in the past, and allows damaging rebounders like Hurn and Nicoski to ply their trade to the full effect.
The losses of Chick and Banfield left a very big hole in defence, which must be filled.
In the long term, Davis may develop his defensive skills, guys like Cockie, Mcginnity and Macnamara might become back pocket stoppers, but until then, Waters is the best option.

 

[Eagle87]

I would be all for this if we didn't have such a deficiency in small defenders who can actually nullify a small forward. Guys like nicoski and davis can rebound, sure, but like wirra, are exposed as being too loose on their direct opponents.
We need someone down back to stop small forwards who have ravaged us so frequently in the past, and allows damaging rebounders like Hurn and Nicoski to ply their trade to the full effect.
The losses of Chick and Banfield left a very big hole in defence, which must be filled.
In the long term, Davis may develop his defensive skills, guys like Cockie, Mcginnity and Macnamara might become back pocket stoppers, but until then, Waters is the best option.

You are aware of the difference between a speedy defensive back pocket and a half back flanker?

Waters at 188cm and never blessed with blinding speed is a half back ....

As to the OP, its not a new idea, a few seasons back, before injuries hit, Waters played the pre-season in the forward line and I recall a game at Subi in which he managed 4 goals and had some very good natural lead up instincts.

Its not the worst idea in the world ....

 

[EagleEgo]

Not a bad idea !

That's how I like to watch this great game of ours. You can use different strategies and tactics to achieve a win. It is not just a game for the players, it is also a game for the commander (coach). You can play it like a game of chess with "fixed/defined" role or you can play it like a game of total football well known by the Ajax/Leeds United in the 70s and Liverpool in the 80s where players are all-rounded as both defender and goal scorer.

 

[beatlesmith]

You are aware of the difference between a speedy defensive back pocket and a half back flanker?

Waters at 188cm and never blessed with blinding speed is a half back ....

As to the OP, its not a new idea, a few seasons back, before injuries hit, Waters played the pre-season in the forward line and I recall a game at Subi in which he managed 4 goals and had some very good natural lead up instincts.

Its not the worst idea in the world ....

A back pocket defender doesn't have to be blindingly fast. C.Brown, Baker, Milburn and Mcdonald all play the role very well without being blessed with great pace.
Waters' qualities are of tenacity, defensive pressure and tackling. Qualities needed by a primarily defensive player.
Without Banfield, Chick, Wirrpanda and Stenglein, who do you suggest should play as the small stopping defender?

 

[no1bankteller]

I would be all for this if we didn't have such a deficiency in small defenders who can actually nullify a small forward. Guys like nicoski and davis can rebound, sure, but like wirra, are exposed as being too loose on their direct opponents.
We need someone down back to stop small forwards who have ravaged us so frequently in the past, and allows damaging rebounders like Hurn and Nicoski to ply their trade to the full effect.
The losses of Chick and Banfield left a very big hole in defence, which must be filled.
In the long term, Davis may develop his defensive skills, guys like Cockie, Mcginnity and Macnamara might become back pocket stoppers, but until then, Waters is the best option.

I am not sure that he is the most suitable player to play on the small quick forward. Much prefer him playing on the middle size forward and helping out other defenders. We have a quiet a few players like that can play this role Jones, Hurn and Selwood's to name the few.

I think that having Waters up front may actually be a very good idea as it makes our forward line a bit more physical. The only doubts that I have about him playing forward is his ability to kick accurately on goal (as from memory that is one area that he can let himself down).

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Depends totally on his kicking. I would rather stick with Scooters and Butler ahead of Waters if he continues to have issues with his disposal by foot. If Smith builds some indurance or we get Tapscott they would be very useful players for this position, epsecially if given i directive to tackle at all costs.

So far Butler is by far the best option after Hurn for rebounding out of defense.

Waters will need to prove himself in the seconds before he comes back anyhow, i feel he could take over A.Selwoods role as Selwood gets a more attacking role.

 

[Eagle87]

A back pocket defender doesn't have to be blindingly fast. C.Brown, Baker, Milburn and Mcdonald all play the role very well without being blessed with great pace.
Waters' qualities are of tenacity, defensive pressure and tackling. Qualities needed by a primarily defensive player.
Without Banfield, Chick, Wirrpanda and Stenglein, who do you suggest should play as the small stopping defender?

Banfield hasn't played for 3 seasons, Chick for 2 and Stinger has rarely played back pocket. Wirra has been used in the pocket but very rarely as a defensive stopper.

So you are replacing blokes who never played that role with a bloke who has also never played that role.

Watch the 2006 GF and tell me again what Waters skillset is. Just because his kicking skills are, at times, ordinary doesnt mean he is some sort of dour defender. Sure, he likes body contact but is an excellent reader of the game - using him in some lock down only role makes no sense and he isnt quick enough or mobile enough for the Milnes, Riolis etc ....

 

[EagleMan87]

I remember he played well there against Sydney in the '06 QF and Round 1 2008 against Brisbane, but he's a terrible kick for the most part.

 

[beatlesmith]

Banfield hasn't played for 3 seasons, Chick for 2 and Stinger has rarely played back pocket. Wirra has been used in the pocket but very rarely as a defensive stopper.

So you are replacing blokes who never played that role with a bloke who has also never played that role.

Watch the 2006 GF and tell me again what Waters skillset is. Just because his kicking skills are, at times, ordinary doesnt mean he is some sort of dour defender. Sure, he likes body contact but is an excellent reader of the game - using him in some lock down only role makes no sense and he isnt quick enough or mobile enough for the Milnes, Riolis etc ....

Steven Baker nullified S.Johnson, J.Akermanis, L.Davis in the finals. Hardly a quick player.

Who would you suggest can play the role better than Waters?
Bones is clearly out of favour and usually plays on the tall side of medium anyway.
The Selwoods look better in the midfield
Nicoski and Davis couldn't mark a man to save their lives, and need freedom to run and carry
Hurn needs freedom to rebound, and should be further up the ground

For me, Waters' role on the HBF has been taken by Butler, who offers far better disposal and decisions. What do we need more, a HFF or a stopping BP?

 

[Eagle87]

Steven Baker nullified S.Johnson, J.Akermanis, L.Davis in the finals. Hardly a quick player.

Who would you suggest can play the role better than Waters?
Bones is clearly out of favour and usually plays on the tall side of medium anyway.
The Selwoods look better in the midfield
Nicoski and Davis couldn't mark a man to save their lives, and need freedom to run and carry
Hurn needs freedom to rebound, and should be further up the ground

For me, Waters' role on the HBF has been taken by Butler, who offers far better disposal and decisions. What do we need more, a HFF or a stopping BP?

This is a bizarre discussion.

Waters isnt Baker and he isnt a lock down bock pocket. Never has been. You might as well suggest Lecca in that role.

Just because we have a need doesnt mean we play him there if it isnt his best role.

There is no doubt that defensive set ups have changed in the last few years and there is no doubt that kicking deficiencies will be more of an issue, that said, Waters is a hell of a player off half back.

Again, just because you want him to be Baker doesnt make it so. If you want a Baker type, you are better working on McGinnity - who, at least, has that lock down mentality.

 

[Swooper Eagle]

This is a bit like Bomber Dean Soloman after his knee reco, Sheedy played him as a spare parts man, wherever he could get a good matchup or whenever some toughness was needed during the game. Waters could play the same role

 

[Mighty Eagles]

Have him as a back pocketer who can give our mids a spell the latter stages of quarters

 

[SS_Fury]

i would be happy if he can just get on the park

 

[wirra44]

i would be happy if he can just get on the park

yeah same really hope he will get out there next year, i would love to see him play 20 odd games he's only 23, so young.

 

[markfarmer]

I thought he may or may not play again because the surgery hasn't quite fixed it..and it could be long-term... Kinda like what happened with Hunter.. He must still be under contract..

 

[beatlesmith]

This is a bizarre discussion.

Waters isnt Baker and he isnt a lock down bock pocket. Never has been. You might as well suggest Lecca in that role.

Just because we have a need doesnt mean we play him there if it isnt his best role.

There is no doubt that defensive set ups have changed in the last few years and there is no doubt that kicking deficiencies will be more of an issue, that said, Waters is a hell of a player off half back.

Again, just because you want him to be Baker doesnt make it so. If you want a Baker type, you are better working on McGinnity - who, at least, has that lock down mentality.

Waters has played more in the back pocket than he has on a half forward flank.
This is a thread about a new role for waters isn't it?

 

[paran]

You'll find that Sooter and McGinnity have been groomed as the backline taggers on the small forwards. I see Waters being used at HFF as we have a load of HBF options and he has shown the ability to kick goals.

 

[Wirra for PM]

You'll find that Sooter and McGinnity have been groomed as the backline taggers on the small forwards. I see Waters being used at HFF as we have a load of HBF options and he has shown the ability to kick goals.

I wouldn't even mind if he didn't kick that many goals, like Max Rooke his job should be to pummel any opposition defender who tries to run the ball out of our forward 50.

Also, even if we did play him primarily of the HF line we could still send him back if need be. Alternatively, we could bring Brown forward and (combined with Lynch) dominate with sheer muscle.

 

[bodazoka]

Either role he plays is fine by me we generally get killed by both small forwards kicking goals and defenders running the ball out. If he locks down a small forward less opposition goals, if he locks down a running defender its less inside 50's for opposition teams driving from defence.

Probably go with the locking down of a running defender as that has the added benefit of keeping our ball inside our 50. This of course will mean that we will still suffer from the odd quarter where a small forward will jag 2+ goals and probably win the game for the opposition.

In saying that not all teams have great small forwards and not all teams create allot of run from defence so it would probably be worth throwing him around as needed next year.

 

[green machine]

I remember he played well there against Sydney in the '06 QF and Round 1 2008 against Brisbane, but he's a terrible kick for the most part.

This.

Great hard at it footballer. Terrible kick. Not who you want in the forward line all the time, but great to throw in when you need some hardness.

 

[PRANKSTER666]

His disposal has never been great but during the year off I did notice he was practicing kicking with his wrong side at training quite a bit so hopefully he has worked on that and will become more efficient by foot out of the back line in 2010.

Still very much a required player given our young list and hopefully is good to go next year.