Environment Newsin

[Bluelegs]

This is probably a good thread to ask, does anybody know how much history is taught in primary/secondary schools these days (in Australia and abroad)? I only learnt about the World Wars (we actually only looked at WWI) in some detail in year 12 as I chose to do a history subject. I still have very little knowledge about Vietnam, Cold War etc. but that history class really opened my eyes about what really goes on in a large scale war.

The old saying is that those who don't know history are destined to repeat it, so I wonder if the next generation will be more inclined to go to war as WWI and WWII (and the pain and suffering that accompanied them) become distant memories.

I finished in 2010, in year 10 we touched on WWI, did Germany post WWI, WWII and the holocaust. Year 11 (history became an elective) we did the Russian Revolution, the Vietnam War and the social movements in the 60's and 70's, touched on the cold war towards the end of the year. Year 12 we did the French Revolution and Chinese Revolution.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Anybody that thinks China can stand up to America is being brainwashed.

 

[Roobs321]

China is not worried about the US.
China would attack Japan over any significant issue between themselves, regardless whether the US will or wont step in.
And knowing the US would have Japan's back if attacked wouldn't prevent them from attacking Japan for any significant issue between themselves.

The US-Japan security alliance has been at the core of the Northeast Asia security infrastructure for 60 years now, maintaining a somewhat status quo. Sure, negligence over small storm in a teacup issues can evolve into larger things, but if one thing has defined China over the last few centuries, it is a domestic focus. Overpopulated countries are so scared of civil unrest that getting food on the table is priority no.1.

China wont yield territory to anyone, but arent going to push their muscle over a North Korea fiasco.

US has also mishandled its dealings with DPRK over the last few years, its very much a US-DPRK issue, but the new US-ROK security alliance should also quell things a bit. But imagine being in DPRK's shoes and seeing Iraq get invaded over dodgy claims, they would have been a little concerned.

As previously stated, the region outside DPRK is too economically integrated and focused to allow a regional conflict (although 2012 damage to China-Japan trade was a mild concern, yes).

 

[Roobs321]

I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who predicted decades ago a nuclear bomb will be dropped on a 3rd world country if/when it would happen again. He apparently had made some accurate predictions previously.

2001: A Space Odyssey....

 

[Roobs321]

China has used 'attack the USA' rhetoric recently (last few years) themselves, warning the US not to get involved in some issue I forget now...perhaps Nth Korea.

Well the Bush administration had some clumsy foreign policy, it's natural an oppositional rival would be critical of US conduct in that period.

 

[Roobs321]

This is probably a good thread to ask, does anybody know how much history is taught in primary/secondary schools these days (in Australia and abroad)? I only learnt about the World Wars (we actually only looked at WWI) in some detail in year 12 as I chose to do a history subject. I still have very little knowledge about Vietnam, Cold War etc. but that history class really opened my eyes about what really goes on in a large scale war.

The old saying is that those who don't know history are destined to repeat it, so I wonder if the next generation will be more inclined to go to war as WWI and WWII (and the pain and suffering that accompanied them) become distant memories.

That's entirely possible, but our modern international state system (our world) really only got going in 1914. The 2 wars remain huge milestones in our current era of human history, they arent ancient roman history quite yet, still modern.

 

[Roobs321]

After Iraq Syria and libya, the Russian and the Chinese get in the way of anything remotely like that. Also, the neighboring countries will not be looking forward to any radioactive fallout. The koreans will send nukes at any aircraft carrier bombing her..

But then, all this carry on in the media is just the koreans trying to avoid sanctions. FYI,If you didn't know, sanctions are an act of war, under the UN charter.

Yep, Sanctions are an act of hard power. Tangible power.

 

[Roobs321]

Anybody that thinks China can stand up to America is being brainwashed.

Yep. Militarily, economically, and ideationally, the US still dominate the planet. Their defence budget spending alone dwarfs anyone else. The US are also the only state with genuine structural power capability, the ability to shape the international systems to their liking.

People were saying the same about Japan in the 80s as they are saying about China now (although Japan & US were allies). India is just as much of a prospect at this time as China, but both have several issues which hold them back for the next generation at least.

 

[exe ex machina]

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[Poseidon]

Exactly how a situation like this can escalate.

Would you say it's time to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

 

[Roobs321]

Exactly how a situation like this can escalate.

Anything could theoretically escalate. Just go and talk to a realist IR expert. Doesnt mean it will actually happen.

 

[Gough]

There are a few rocks in the Pacific that are far more likely to cause an incident than a spoiled rich kid cracking the sads.

 

[exe ex machina]

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[exe ex machina]

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[neroblack]

Doesn't mean it wont happen either

In the real world, the chances of any if those incidents escalating to the extent you're talking about is so minuscule, it pretty much does mean that it won't happen.

 

[Gough]

North Korea won't risk too much. Plenty of sabre rattling but little in the way of direct action. They know that if there is any act of war, as Colin Powell put it, Pyongyang will be turned into a parking lot.

 

[The_Reaper]

There are a few rocks in the Pacific that are far more likely to cause an incident than a spoiled rich kid cracking the sads.

It's interesting on the differences between Germany and Japan and how they are felt by their neighbours nearly 70 years after the war.

 

[Papa Juggs]

The tables can only turn if Russia/China can find money to make advancements they haven't stolen from the USA (can't steal what isn't being created).

The U.S.S.R is the only example of this happening post WWII.

With China it's not a matter of money. They're stupid. All their technology is a rip off. They'd be better off if they all learnt to program in English because the reverse engineering mentality is keeping them in a race they can never win. They can't program military technology in Chinese so once they've stolen the plans to build it so they have to steal the programming too and then translate it. Very inefficient.

They know this so they're using their money to good advantage.

US graduates unable to get a job at NASA or DARPA will go to China and join their high tech companies.

This is called "brain drain" and it's much more effective than military combat at shifting power.

 

[Roobs321]

It's interesting on the differences between Germany and Japan and how they are felt by their neighbours nearly 70 years after the war.

Germany and Japan also had remarkable recoveries in the post WWII era period. Germany had also bounced back after WWI rather quickly. The regeneration in these two countries was quite impressive.

Japan might not be popular with China, but you could argue that if it wasnt for Japan imperialism, the Asian region would have been colonised for a lot longer. Japan undermined the existing colonial empires, allowing for the path to independence in several cases. Japan also pioneered that development state/export-led industrialisation economy model that other states adopted. Japan's heavy hand over the economy really kickstarted the Asian economy we have today, even if the DS era effectively ended two decades ago.

China in particular seems to smart over historical events. The Opium war and WWII massacres are sore points with them (and rightly so), but a bit overblown for the 21st century.

 

[The_Reaper]

Germany and Japan also had remarkable recoveries in the post WWII era period. Germany had also bounced back after WWI rather quickly. The regeneration in these two countries was quite impressive.

Japan might not be popular with China, but you could argue that if it wasnt for Japan imperialism, the Asian region would have been colonised for a lot longer. Japan undermined the existing colonial empires, allowing for the path to independence in several cases. Japan also pioneered that development state/export-led industrialisation economy model that other states adopted. Japan's heavy hand over the economy really kickstarted the Asian economy we have today, even if the DS era effectively ended two decades ago.

China in particular seems to smart over historical events. The Opium war and WWII massacres are sore points with them (and rightly so), but a bit overblown for the 21st century.

Speaking of someone who does have Asian ancestry as well as relatives who lived through the war in Asia, the Japanese were considered worse than the colonial powers in many cases.

 

[Roobs321]

Speaking of someone who does have Asian ancestry as well as relatives who lived through the war in Asia, the Japanese were considered worse than the colonial powers in many cases.

That is completely true, but it doesnt change the fact that Japan's intentions ultimately undermined the existing colonial order quicker than it otherwise would have occured. No one is saying Japan would have been preferable, merely that it upset the existing order and gave nationalist confidence to the colonised.

 

[Bouvet_Island]

There is a school of thought that if a major nuclear weapon were to be dropped somewhere upon Earth, the safest place to be would be downtown Hiroshima, because what are the odds of them copping it twice?

Copping two nuclear bombs isn't as bad as it may seem...

Check this guy out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Yamaguchi

He was Hiroshima when it was bombed, and then moved to Nagasaki in time to cop the second bombing..

He died in 2010 at age 93....

 

[Andre]

It's interesting on the differences between Germany and Japan and how they are felt by their neighbours nearly 70 years after the war.

Not really. Germany repeatedly apologised for their actions, they don't deny them. Any Nazi worship by anyone is frowned upon. Contrast with the regular visits to shrines housing Japanese war criminals by politicians there and their continued denial about issues like 'comfort' women. The Japanese are their own worst enemies still in some respects. If they took full responsibility for their actions they'd be able to ally fully with the likes of South Korea and present a united front against China. Instead their refusal to confront the worst of their past allows China to play what should be a united democratic allies off against each other for China's benefit.

 

[The_Reaper]

Not really. Germany repeatedly apologised for their actions, they don't deny them. Any Nazi worship by anyone is frowned upon. Contrast with the regular visits to shrines housing Japanese war criminals by politicians there and their continued denial about issues like 'comfort' women. The Japanese are their own worst enemies still in some respects. If they took full responsibility for their actions they'd be able to ally fully with the likes of South Korea and present a united front against China. Instead their refusal to confront the worst of their past allows China to play what should be a united democratic allies off against each other for China's benefit.

Yeah it's an interesting result of cultural differences.

The whole losing face culture as well as the fact that America wanted Japan to regain strength quickly whilst Germany was divided and had two strong Western neighbours interested in keeping it weeker than them.

 

[Andre]

Eg...

Nth Korea attacks Sth Korea
Japan attacks Nth Korea
China attacks Japan
USA attacks China
Russia attacks USA

Not happening. Especially the last point. Unless the Russians are nuking the US the capabilities they can field by land, air and especially sea have degraded massively since the fall of the Soviet Union. If nukes aren't involved then given their largely static technology compared to the West the last 20 odd years I'd tip the UK would give them a run for their money (this is in battle, not to occupy countries post-war).

China doesn't want to risk North Korea falling (and it would if it attacked) and US troops at it's borders. The last thing they want is replacing a semi-puppet regime that keeps the US, South Korea (and to a lesser extent Japan) tied down with a 1st world democracy (in time) on their border) and them contained more than they are at present.