Nicky Winmar to be honoured with statue.

[stfan]

The photo is great and the statue looks good. But that’s it.
The rest has all been made up years later.

Well Simon Madden too would seem to disagree with your assertion that it was all made up years later as well. Madden writes within days of the gesture that it was a reaction by Winmar to racism from the crowd.

Simon Madden, The Age, page 26, 22 April 1993
Nicky Wlnmar's after-match gesture of lifting his jumper and pointing to his skin was not directed at his opponents, but to the source of most racial comments the crowd. His show of pride was made more emphatic by St Kilda winning and him being best on ground.

 

[Occidental]

As I have just posted above, anyone can read the page 1 story of 18th April, 1993 on page 1 of The Age with the pic, the quote and the article on it. The poster is 100% wrong and is fabricating what actually did occur at the time.

Good on you for going back to 1993 for info. That’s what I did with the video I posted. This is the only way to cut through all the hyperbole.
Again, there is no quote from Winmar about what he did or said in that article. It’s an odd little article too.
Its headline is all about Winmar’s actions and statement, but then it states they interviewed him after the game but they didn’t ask him about it and he also says nothing about it either.
Two days later Winmar walks out for five weeks.
I know the Pies crowd were feral that day and many taunts were race based.
I know our President made an ass of himself in what he said in the week following.
I know the photo is a stunning image and it now has a brilliant message attributed.
The statue looks great too.

 

[stfan]

Good on you for going back to 1993 for info. That’s what I did with the video I posted. This is the only way to cut through all the hyperbole.

Yes I looked for media on the incident, and odd as it evidently seems to the you the paper and day that the photo was originally in. You looked at media on another matter.

Again, there is no quote from Winmar about what he did or said in that article.

Are you that illiterate? It states in the article that Ludbey hears Winmar's declaration.

' 'Sunday Age' photographer Wayne Ludbey was among those close enough to hear his proud post-match declaration".

It also quotes Winmar,

"After his fourth consecutive vote-winning performance, Winmar turned toward Colllngwood supporters, pointed to his bared chest and declared: "I'm black and I'm proud to be black."

It’s an odd little article too.
Its headline is all about Winmar’s actions and statement, but then it states they interviewed him after the game but they didn’t ask him about it and he also says nothing about it either.
Two days later Winmar walks out for five weeks.
I know the Pies crowd were feral that day and many taunts were race based.
I know our President made an ass of himself in what he said in the week following.
I know the photo is a stunning image and it now has a brilliant message attributed.
The statue looks great too.

So quite clearly even when proof is provided you still deny it. The headline I showed was something that you said was made up years afterward. If you read The Age Editorial of the same week it repeats the same quote attributed to Winmar.

I have also earlier provided a radio interview by the photographer. He quite clearly has stated that was in the paper was what he hears Winmar say.

It was said in 1993 and was not made up years afterward.

So do we believe your re-write of history, or do we go with what was in print that week, the account of the players, the photographer who heard it, journalists that week and people like Simon Madden who that week was in no doubt as to what the gesture was about and who it was directed to?

 

[stfan]

If anyone is still in doubt as to why statues such as this one are required they only need read the writings of several people in this thread.

 

[Socrates2]

Bulls**t

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You have no right to post on this forum due to your past borderline racist comments. Go and pick on someone your own size champ.

 

[Occidental]

Yes I looked for media on the incident, and odd as it evidently seems to the you the paper and day that the photo was originally in. You looked at media on another matter.






Are you that illiterate? It states in the article that Ludbey hears Winmar's declaration.

' 'Sunday Age' photographer Wayne Ludbey was among those close enough to hear his proud post-match declaration".

It also quotes Winmar,

"After his fourth consecutive vote-winning performance, Winmar turned toward Colllngwood supporters, pointed to his bared chest and declared: "I'm black and I'm proud to be black."




So quite clearly even when proof is provided you still deny it. The headline I showed was something that you said was made up years afterward. If you read The Age Editorial of the same week it repeats the same quote attributed to Winmar.

I have also earlier provided a radio interview by the photographer. He quite clearly has stated that was in the paper was what he hears Winmar say.

It was said in 1993 and was not made up years afterward.

So do we believe your re-write of history, or do we go with what was in print that week, the account of the players, the photographer who heard it, journalists that week and people like Simon Madden who that week was in no doubt as to what the gesture was about and who it was directed to?

I’m not illiterate thanks.
Again (hopefully for the last time) Winmar says nothing about what he did. There are NO quotes from him about the action or statement even though the Age article says he was interviewed. Winmar says nothing.
The only person on earth who says anything about the statement on that day is the very photographer who just happens to take the photo and wants it published.
In the radio interview 26 years later he says he was 30 yards from Winmar at the end of the game. This would put the photographer right in front of the Collingwood grandstand with all the players and officials entering the field. But he is the only person on earth who has said they heard it, just as he was looking through his camera with it whirring taking those multiple photos, the noisy Collingwood stand is right behind him and all the St Kilda players converging to celebrate.
Bloody good hearing.
But I repeat - the message is important, the photo is great, so is the statue and I’m glad it has all done some good.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

If anyone is still in doubt as to why statues such as this one are required they only need read the writings of several people in this thread.

Should probably have a copy of the statue facing the Holden Centre, preferably in sight of all the important windows.

 

[stfan]

I’m not illiterate thanks.
Again (hopefully for the last time) Winmar says nothing about what he did. There are NO quotes from him about the action or statement even though the Age article says he was interviewed. Winmar says nothing.
The only person on earth who says anything about the statement on that day is the very photographer who just happens to take the photo and wants it published.
In the radio interview 26 years later he says he was 30 yards from Winmar at the end of the game. This would put the photographer right in front of the Collingwood grandstand with all the players and officials entering the field. But he is the only person on earth who has said they heard it, just as he was looking through his camera with it whirring taking those multiple photos, the noisy Collingwood stand is right behind him and all the St Kilda players converging to celebrate.
Bloody good hearing.
But I repeat - the message is important, the photo is great, so is the statue and I’m glad it has all done some good.

You clearly have issues, and are content to try and maintain your lie.

You are also just trying to deflect. You stated many times it was all made up later. I have provided clear evidence that it was reported on the very next day.

You have been caught in a lie and our now trying to pretend that the photographer just made it all up at the time. Well even if it was so, and it is not, it was still reported the next day, and on other days that week, whereas you insisted it was all years later. So wriggle and squirm as much as you like you have been caught in a lie.

 

[stfan]

All the hype regarding lifting his jumper came way later. Sometimes years later. Decades later people now claim that he said “ I’m black and proud”. That’s just an invention. It never happened.

Well we will just ignore the media the next day and later that week eh.


Or now that that media has been shown to you, your story changes.

The only person on earth who says anything about the statement on that day is the very photographer who just happens to take the photo and wants it published.

So first you say it was way later. Now you say that day. Tomorrow it will be????

If you are going to lie it is best to not keep changing your story and contradicting yourself. The lie is just obvious.

Everyone that reported on it that week and later evidently know nothing. Only Occidental knows the truth, except Occidental's truth is very flexible and subject to change. Within a day his story changes, but according to him a story that has not changed for 26 years is all a lie.

 

[stfan]

The only person on earth who says anything about the statement on that day is the very photographer who just happens to take the photo and wants it published.

The only person on earth eh. Obviously Winmar and McAdam do not count? Obviously Blackfellas do not matter eh?

Well what about John Feder the opposition photographer that was there? What does he believe? A little research and hey presto.....

John Feder, representing the Sunday Herald Sun, was a friendly rival and recalls moving to capture pictures of the players walking off. Winmar was in his sights: 'I think we [he and Ludbey] both prided ourselves on looking for something maybe a bit extra than just the action' (Feder 2009). Winmar was perhaps ten to 15 metres away when the incident occurred. Feder remembers concentrating on focusing the manual camera, shooting at the lowest possible shutter speed because of the closing evening dark. He does not remember hearing Winmar, but returned to his darkroom with a definite understanding of the anti-racism and Aboriginal pride inherent in the gesture (Feder 2009). Feder and Ludbey appear to have been the only photographers to capture the moment. The challenge for both of them was to convince their editors of its importance as newsworthy.

Nor was the potential of this image obvious to the Sunday Herald Sun. Feder recalls arguing with his editors over the racial import of his photograph, which was virtually identical to Ludbey's in all respects other than the angle of Winmar's hand. According to Feder, the editors were insisting:

that Winmar was saying, 'Look at me, I've got guts', or whatever ... and I was saying, 'No no no, he was pointing to his skin', and ... [I was] trying to argue the fact that they should use it on the front ... which I wouldn't do all that often, but I felt strongly about the picture and the moment ... (Feder 2009).


So John Feder who was nearby and while he did not hear the words, he did shoot an almost identical photograph and he has stated that the gesture was about anti-racism and aboriginal pride and that he wanted the picture used in that context and argued that it should be.



So Occidental would try and have you believe that the gesture having any ant-racist meaning was all made up and that the Ludbey was the sole agent in this initially, and that Winmar and McAdam then just went along with it.

So if you believe Occidental (you pick which one of his changing versions) we are now to believe that John Feder too is a liar in his belief that Winmar's gesture was about aboriginal pride and ant-racism.

The gesture was anti-racist and about aboriginal pride. Ignoring Winmar himself, the two men with the best view of the gesture believe this to be so.

Occidental with his Exhibit A of the Molly Meldrum Video (which was on a different matter) has this as a giant conspiracy that it is all made up and that all who were involved who say otherwise are going along the the Ludbey Lie.


I will leave it to you to decide who you believe. Occidental or Ludbey, Feder, Winmar and McAdam and various journalists and commentators of the time.

I will not bother rebutting his story again as he clearly wants to push his own imagined version/s of the day. I will leave it to you to make up your own mind on the gesture and why it was made.

 

[OniAu]

Great statue. Disappointing that it never got its place at the G. Glad it’s got recognition. Huge iconic moment in our game


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[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Loved Winmar as a player and glad they have the statue of him. Very iconic moment. Think the statue would have been better located at Collingwood though !

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Great statue. Disappointing that it never got its place at the G. Glad it’s got recognition. Huge iconic moment in our game

No reason you can't have more than 1 statue. It you have one at the G it has to be outside the gates at the Ponsford though.

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

Bulls**t

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Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong but hey well done tough guy. Did another one of your internet dates give you the "you're a nice guy but.." texts after an awkward meet up?

I went back to the book and it was because he had no official birth certificate.

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

Some people should be ashamed of the comments in here and then I remember it's Big Footy and the Herald Sun comments section on Facebook would have more level headed people commenting.

 

[Marcel Proust]

How cool was it seeing Edwards, Stack, Bolton, Rioli, DES (and Chol) doing pictures after the game

#xfactor

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

I agree the story has built up over time. That’s exactly my point. Ludbey talking 26 years after the event is putting even more icing on it. Now he reckons Winmar ran around repeatedly saying that phrase!! That’s a new one!
Look, I don’t think anyone is actually “lying”, but people over time are embellishing.
It’s like posters on here “remembering” everything about the event in 1993, but forgetting the biggest story of the year was Winmar walking out on St Kilda 4 days after that very game. Winmar went missing for 5 weeks after the game, but some posters here “remember” him immediately after the game talking about it.
Pretty poor memories.
It’s turned into something huge, but it has also shifted away from what truly happened.
The photo is great and the statue looks good. But that’s it.
The rest has all been made up years later.

the fact his manager the known sleeze ball Peter Jess convinced his palyer to walk away and manipulated Nicky into serviving his interest and not nickys interest is certainly a story and its a story that all potential players should pay attention to when it comes to choosing who represents them

 

[Fat Yak]

Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong but hey well done tough guy. Did another one of your internet dates give you the "you're a nice guy but.." texts after an awkward meet up?

I went back to the book and it was because he had no official birth certificate.

Sorry mate, I just get sick of hearing that lie trotted out time after time. It's been debunked so many times and people still believe it to be fact.

 

[PerthBoy86]

Why not two statues? One at Perth/Optus Stadium and the other at the MCG?

 

[Starburns_]

I don't think its pettiness now, just not something they have on the radar priorities wise. No rush, plenty of time for the whole precinct to bed down

Fair enough. Just sounded from the initial post as though there'd been a public refusal to do it.

Wouldn't hurt for someone to get the ball rolling though. It's not like these things happen overnight.

Serious question - what is the criteria ?

Pretty much it's based on significant performance at the MCG. Winmar's career was only solid, and the moment that elevates him as a figure obviously had nothing to do with the MCG.

They might've put a halt on MCG statues too for the time being.

 

[stfan]

Winmar's career was only solid,

Solid? Not sure you actually saw him play then. There are many ways to describe Winmar as a footballer but solid is not one of them.

Great and silky skills, spectacular high mark, good goal kicker, very good tackler, knew how to launch accurate torps, mercurial at times but always oozed class and poise.....

Saw him thrash Gabba Snr when going head to head on the wing when Gabb was ripping most opponents new ones in other games.

 

[Kram]

Yeah I dunno if he fits whatever criteria requirements they have for the MCG but describing his playing career as merely 'solid' is actually an insult.

 

[My Tilly]

Awesome bloke.
A genuinely kind-hearted person who happened to be one of the most brilliant footballers of his generation.
Well deserving of a statue in his honour.

 

[Atomboy]

Pretty much it's based on significant performance at the MCG. Winmar's career was only solid, and the moment that elevates him as a figure obviously had nothing to do with the MCG.

They might've put a halt on MCG statues too for the time being.

Fair enough - cheers for that