Not Worth A Thread - Random Bulldog Discussion - Part 2

[lachy]

The AFL (1991-) and the VFL (1897-1990) are the same continuous competition, just with a rebranding. It is fact that the AFL is an expanded VFL competition, so those supporters are correct. We also rightly consider/claim both Footscray's 1954 and the Western Bulldogs' 2016 flags of equal importance despite having a different name and many elements of the competition being different between the two seasons.

In order of importance we've won 2 flags in the VFL/AFL competition, 12 flags in the VFA/VFL competition (those won between 1897-1924 and 2014-), and a few other short form competitions.

We as dogs supporters can claim whatever we like.

To say moving from a 12 team competition where there was simply one club moved interstate to am 18 team competition with 8 teams playing interstate and interstate finals is not just rebranding, it is a significant structural change of the entire competition

 

[stevieg1969]

Disagree regarding the modern VFL premierships (post 2000). These are a hybrid of a top level comp (applies to about 20-30% of players) and a reserves or second grade comp (applies to the remaining 70-80% who are the available senior list players not selected for the AFL game on any given weekend).

By contrast the pre-1925 VFA premierships were the highest level of play in that association just as the VFL ones were for the league. So I’d rank them:
1. VFL pre 1990 / AFL 1990-
2. VFA - especially pre 1925 when it was reportedly a strong comp
3. VFL 1990-
4. VFL Reserves.1925-1990

With so little difference between the last two you might as well merge them.

The VFA pre-1897 would have been a stronger comp than the VFA from 1897-1924 given all foundation VFL teams would have been playing in this comp.

 

[dogwatch]

The VFA pre-1897 would have been a stronger comp than the VFA from 1897-1924 given all foundation VFL teams would have been playing in this comp.

True but still evolving from its formative years. It would be very hard to do a comparison between say 1883 and 1903 and 1923.

 

[Sentinel]

Disagree regarding the modern VFL premierships (post 2000). These are a hybrid of a top level comp (applies to about 20-30% of players) and a reserves or second grade comp (applies to the remaining 70-80% who are the available senior list players not selected for the AFL game on any given weekend).

By contrast the pre-1925 VFA premierships were the highest level of play in that association just as the VFL ones were for the league. So I’d rank them:
1. VFL pre 1990 / AFL 1990-
2. VFA - especially pre 1925 when it was reportedly a strong comp
3. VFL 1990-
4. VFL Reserves.1925-1990

With so little difference between the last two you might as well merge them.

I agree on this. The current VFL is a bastardised version of what the competition once was.

 

[geoffjennings79]

The VFA pre-1897 would have been a stronger comp than the VFA from 1897-1924 given all foundation VFL teams would have been playing in this comp.

Yes, but often pre-1897 "premiers" were not allocated by the governing body, but by newspapers, and not always objectively. Wins were counted against lower grade teams in early years too, not just actual VFA participants. The majority of pre-1897 "premierships" are meaningless. IMO.

 

[Sentinel]

We as dogs supporters can claim whatever we like.

To say moving from a 12 team competition where there was simply one club moved interstate to am 18 team competition with 8 teams playing interstate and interstate finals is not just rebranding, it is a significant structural change of the entire competition

We can and do claim what we want for the club, as Carter and Geelong have for their own club but suddenly now want to rewrite competition history.

The AFL looks very different to the competition of 100 years ago, but its still the same continuous competition which has evolved over time. Do we reset the count every time a new club joins? Why didn't we draw the line when Sydney moved interstate, or when West Coast and Brisbane joined? Why 1991 when nothing changed but the name? Because its an ongoing evolution.

 

[Sentinel]

Yes, but often pre-1897 "premiers" were not allocated by the governing body, but by newspapers, and not always objectively. Wins were counted against lower grade teams in early years too, not just actual VFA participants. The majority of pre-1897 "premierships" are meaningless. IMO.

Even this is a bit irrelevant. Rules change over time.

The only thing that should really matter in this dumb argument from Carter is that the VFA/VFL is a completely separate competition from the VFL/AFL, and competition records shouldn't be conflated. Thats where the conversation should end.

I also find it amusing that they only talk of premierships, but not all of the other records which exist from those years that logically must also be added to VFL/AFL history. Hobson's Bay Railway and South Ballarat (amongst others) suddenly become ex-clubs of the competition alongside University? What of individual player records?

 

[geoffjennings79]

Also, while the VFA as a whole from 1897-1924 was not strong, clubs like us, North and Port, who dominated the competition, fielded many players who moved between VFA and VFL. Our flags between the end of WW1 and 1924 featured some of the top VFL players. Con McCarthy crossed to us as a flag-winning Collingwood captain, Eason was a star at Geelong. Barker and Hardy, senior players for Essendon in their 1924 flag and Championship of Victoria match against us had both played in VFA flags for North before crossing to the VFL as accomplished footballers.

 

[X_box_X]

What have we all got planned tomorrow?

A bloke I met late last year through my local footy club has invited me around to watch the footy in his man cave. He has a spit going. Norm Smith Medal and 1st Goal Kicker sweeps. I coached his son in the u15s and coincidentally my wife works with his wife. Sounds like it will be good atmosphere with my mate (the guy I coach with) also coming with his family who (also coincidentally) has two boys who are friends with my two boys (this was actually prior to us meeting through footy so very small world). It will be the first time we've done something together as a family on GF day which I'm excited about.

Unrelated to the above, but each Grand Final since 2015 I've run the below competition. It's a load of fun. Usually I run it between a group of mates but recently I've also run it between a few of us on BigFooty.

 

[dogwatch]

What makes the debate about VFA, VFL and AFL eras meaningful is that it helps shape a club’s awareness of its history and traditions. This is important in building a strong sense of identity and pride in the club.

Every club tries to capture this feeling of continuity from past glories through the ages to the present day.

So it is as true of us as it is of say Geelong, Port Adelaide, Collingwood, Sydney (South Melb) or Brisbane (Fitzroy, Bears). Each with their own quite different histories. That’s obviously harder for the newly minted clubs like Fremantle, Gold Coast and GWS.

I don’t mind clubs laying claim to their history like this, but I do object if they try to revise history or use it to say “we’re better than you!”.

I’d be using the AFL era as the main proving ground of who is better than who. Especially the period after the draft and salary cap were introduced and they cracked down on the brown paper bag culture.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

What makes the debate about VFA, VFL and AFL eras meaningful is that it helps shape a club’s awareness of its history and traditions. This is important in building a strong sense of identity and pride in the club.

Every club tries to capture this feeling of continuity from past glories through the ages to the present day.

So it is as true of us as it is of say Geelong, Port Adelaide, Collingwood, Sydney (South Melb) or Brisbane (Fitzroy, Bears). Each with their own quite different histories. That’s obviously harder for the newly minted clubs like Fremantle, Gold Coast and GWS.

I don’t mind clubs laying claim to their history like this, but I do object if they try to revise history or use it to say “we’re better than you!”.

I’d be using the AFL era as the main proving ground of who is better than who. Especially the period after the draft and salary cap were introduced and they cracked down on the brown paper bag culture.

But it is in this that make Carter's claims, a former Geelong president, appear entirely self-serving.

If his argument is that the fact that the VFL/AFL competition formed 1897 eventually swallowed up footy as a whole from top to bottom, and therefore, in history, has a natural bias to its own competition rather than other top footy generally (whether that be all VFA football or football outside Victoria), fair enough, I agree.

But then why isn't he balanced in promoting this, rather than just his pre-1897 stuff? It's hard to draw any other conclusion than it being self-serving to make Geelong appear a better club in the eyes of the modern day fan, rather than a general, overall balanced look at history.

For example, a key instance of this - and something I've seen actually good footy historians discuss more - is how the old interstate carnivals have sort of been forgotten to time, because people don't champion their state anymore rather than the club they support, even though when they occurred they were big deals at the time, a sort of mini-world cup at the time. They were high-level games that mattered the most to the footy country as a whole, but because they were only representative teams and the national football council that ran them was absorbed by the AFL, they sort of are lost to footy discussion history.

 

[Bulldog Brent]

Random question - does anyone have a high quality photo of the MCG where it showed the attendance (99,981)?

I remember an iconic photo showing Liam Picken

Liam Picken

Age

39

Ht

184cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

9.1

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

4.6

5star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.6

4star

K

4.6

2star

HB

9.0

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

5.6

5star

G

0.2

3star

on the field, with the ball, and the scorebnard up high flashing up the attendance. Wanting it as a screensaver but cannot find it anywhere.

As a matter of fact, I'd love to know where I can find more quality photos of the GF!

 

[Freshwater]

Random question - does anyone have a high quality photo of the MCG where it showed the attendance (99,981)?

I remember an iconic photo showing Liam Picken on the field, with the ball, and the scorebnard up high flashing up the attendance. Wanting it as a screensaver but cannot find it anywhere.

As a matter of fact, I'd love to know where I can find more quality photos of the GF!

Surely we’re not believing the AFL crowd sizes on Grand Final day? I’ve walked through when my ticket hasn’t scanned a few times over the years. They always fudge it. I saw early this year 15,000 at Sydney Showgrounds, GWS home, that looked very very empty.

 

[RWnBluey]

For anyone interested Liam Pickering tells the story of how Dunkley’s failed trade to Essendon went down in 2020. Starts @39:30

 

[norway blue]

Ricky in Isaan. I keep watching. A great Dogs supporter.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Am I the only one who gets annoyed by how much Brad Johnson

Brad Johnson

Age

49

Ht

182cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

14.1

5star

HB

5.6

4star

M

5.9

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.5

5star

No current season stats available

D

12.8

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

2.6

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

0.6

3star

goes out his way to be neutral/against the grain when talking about the Bulldogs?

 

[geoffjennings79]

Am I the only one who gets annoyed by how much Brad Johnson goes out his way to be neutral/against the grain when talking about the Bulldogs?

No, you're not. He's like the antithesis of all the ex-Geelong and ex-Hawthorn players in the media. I don't want him to be a rampant barracker, but he does seem to go out of his way, as you say.

 

[Libbaaaa]

No, you're not. He's like the antithesis of all the ex-Geelong and ex-Hawthorn players in the media. I don't want him to be a rampant barracker, but he does seem to go out of his way, as you say.

Even in that segment on SEN yesterday about what it would take to get Butters this year, he’s throwing out Naughton or Naughton + 10 (tongue in cheek but still) when all he has to say is “If Butters nominates the Dogs he’ll get there”.

 

[Thunderoad]

This popped up on instagram today.

I'd seen it before but had forgotten about it.

Tough few days for the Axe getting punted from the finals and by the girlfriend.

Good to see the boys tucking in to what would have been about $2 worth of chips back then.

 

[Thunderoad]

Clay Smith

Clay Smith

Age

32

Ht

182cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.8

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

5.9

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

4.8

5star

G

0.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

10.6

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

0.8

4star

is a ripper.

Nice jumper as well.

 

[Piggyg]

Also, while the VFA as a whole from 1897-1924 was not strong, clubs like us, North and Port, who dominated the competition, fielded many players who moved between VFA and VFL. Our flags between the end of WW1 and 1924 featured some of the top VFL players. Con McCarthy crossed to us as a flag-winning Collingwood captain, Eason was a star at Geelong. Barker and Hardy, senior players for Essendon in their 1924 flag and Championship of Victoria match against us had both played in VFA flags for North before crossing to the VFL as accomplished footballers.

My great grandfather and his brother played for Footscray back to back vfa premierships I think in 1919-1920 or somewhere around that time. I’ve got a photo of the team, but I don’t know much of the history apart from that. Not even sure if it was back to back but pretty sure it was multiples. I know the reason we even crossed over to the vfl was we absolutely dominated vfa for a number of years.

 

[King Harold]

My great grandfather and his brother played for Footscray back to back vfa premierships I think in 1919-1920 or somewhere around that time. I’ve got a photo of the team, but I don’t know much of the history apart from that. Not even sure if it was back to back but pretty sure it was multiples. I know the reason we even crossed over to the vfl was we absolutely dominated vfa for a number of years.

They would have played with my wife’s grandfather.
#25 Jack Meuleman

 

[dogwatch]

My great grandfather and his brother played for Footscray back to back vfa premierships I think in 1919-1920 or somewhere around that time. I’ve got a photo of the team, but I don’t know much of the history apart from that. Not even sure if it was back to back but pretty sure it was multiples. I know the reason we even crossed over to the vfl was we absolutely dominated vfa for a number of years.

Griersons?

The VFA Project

www.thevfaproject.org

 

[Piggyg]

Griersons?

The VFA Project

www.thevfaproject.org

Charlie “Piggy” and Johnny “whippet” respectively. Good detective work!

 

[Freshwater]

What makes the debate about VFA, VFL and AFL eras meaningful is that it helps shape a club’s awareness of its history and traditions. This is important in building a strong sense of identity and pride in the club.

Every club tries to capture this feeling of continuity from past glories through the ages to the present day.

So it is as true of us as it is of say Geelong, Port Adelaide, Collingwood, Sydney (South Melb) or Brisbane (Fitzroy, Bears). Each with their own quite different histories. That’s obviously harder for the newly minted clubs like Fremantle, Gold Coast and GWS.

I don’t mind clubs laying claim to their history like this, but I do object if they try to revise history or use it to say “we’re better than you!”.

I’d be using the AFL era as the main proving ground of who is better than who. Especially the period after the draft and salary cap were introduced and they cracked down on the brown paper bag culture.

Fremantle were in their 31st season this year and their 32nd next year. They now have a few decades to draw on.