Analysis Our ability to use the pill and stop opposition momentum

[DaveyBoy123]

McMillan often goes kick chasing when we get in front even though he is meant to be the "leader" and "mr.structures".

It's a coaching issue because scott has continually allowed it to happen across his tenure. It's a game plan issue because we allow such easy swings of momentum and it's a culture issue because guys in our leadership group let it be that way.

I look at that 3rd qtr after we got to 5 goals up and asked myself who were the main dogs that lifted him. One was clearly Dahl as he just dug deep and seemed to be everywhere. Would need to look closer to see if he could've been stopped, but I'm guessing not really.

The other was Matt Fn Suckling on a half-forward flank (not even his preferred position). He was involved in everything and pretty much every scoring situation in the 3rd qtr. Why? Because J-Mac was constantly playing 5-10 metres off him! Was he kick-chasing? You could make a case either way. But the bottom line is that when we needed to halt the opposition's momentum, we needed to knuckle down and play 1 on 1. The fact that one of our most experienced leaders couldn't do that at a crucial time is disappointing and should not go unnoticed or be encouraged (at least not at these crucial times of close games).

 

[RobZombie]

Cunnington is back where he should be after a honeymoon hiatus.......today is the perfect reason why we've been whoring ourselves to player managers trying to finding elite midfielders. Somebody who pipes up and says follow me boys. This isnt a slap in the face to Ziebell ( I just think he should be a part time mid who can fill in spots elsewhere when needed).
Goldstein has shown his mentally weak ability to play with another big man in the team. So for me its a no brainer when he draining the team salary cap as well is to dump him, the club is bigger than the individual......

Have a look at Goldy's numbers on one leg in the back half of last year when we already had half the team out injured and no credible replacement full time ruck.

Then piss off with your "mentally weak" bullshit.

 

[muttley45]

It's the little things that kill us a lot of the the time, for example after taking a mark or receiving a free kick, how many times do our players either fail to get back far enough off the mark to allow proper disposal, or take a stupid 1/2 step off the line and immediately get called to play on and rush the disposal, either that, or due to nobody running to create a free option, get stuck looking for an out until called to play on and rushed again. A lot of this crap should be noted in the video review and each offender made to work on it at training.

 

[dus]

In summary:

We have too many front runners and butchers.

 

[kaboom kid]

Would love to know if we have a specialist skills coach, who is he and why he is still employed.

Brent Harvey

 

[ozzyoslo]

Have a look at Goldy's numbers on one leg in the back half of last year when we already had half the team out injured and no credible replacement full time ruck.

Then piss off with your "mentally weak" bullshit.

There's always an excuse when he plays bad RZ ...... and last time I checked I'm entitled to an opinion. The ignore button option is there.

 

[RobZombie]

There's always an excuse when he plays bad RZ ...... and last time I checked I'm entitled to an opinion. The ignore button option is there.

You're entitled to an opinion and other people are entitled to call out your bullshit.

We can have a reasonable difference of opinion on whether he's physical enough (i do happen to disagree with you), whether quality rucks are over- or undervalued, maybe whether there's anything in naturally north's (possibly scrotum-sourced) opinion that he's selfish or even whether his personal shenanigans have been destabilizing.

But "mentally weak" is some bullshit you made up to slander the bloke because you have some weird agenda.

 

[Kimbo]

Have a look at Goldy's numbers on one leg in the back half of last year when we already had half the team out injured and no credible replacement full time ruck.

Then piss off with your "mentally weak" bullshit.

 

[amaz199]

It's the little things that kill us a lot of the the time, for example after taking a mark or receiving a free kick, how many times do our players either fail to get back far enough off the mark to allow proper disposal, or take a stupid 1/2 step off the line and immediately get called to play on and rush the disposal, either that, or due to nobody running to create a free option, get stuck looking for an out until called to play on and rushed again. A lot of this crap should be noted in the video review and each offender made to work on it at training.

It is the basic fundamentals that kill us most. Spoiling each other in contests, hospital handballs, waiting for the pass instead of running towards it to prevent any chances of interception etc.

Worst of all, set-ups at ruck contests. An absolute shambles.

 

[Kimbo]

Good thread.

I don't think we're soft and I am proud of our endeavour but I reckon other clubs would potentially think that and always feel confident against us knowing we will invariably capitulate for some reason. Some dubious umpiring calls tonight helped change the momentum I might add but unfortunately we still managed to choke yet again.

This season reminds me of 2013 where we had lots of close finishes, but lost about six games by under 10 points. Wouldn't surprise me if we achieve similar results this year. That year, and perhaps this year, the focus was on a fast, attacking game plan. Scott has been on record in talking about a 'structured approach to offence'. I'm not sure we're at that point, but he has, in the past shown a 'back-to-front' approach to development in which attack is learned before defence. That's a big overstatement, but I think history provides some grounding for this view. There is also a fatigue issue at play I think, hence our poor last quarters.

Coaching issue. Game plan issue and culture issue.

We get 30 points in front and go into cruise mode. Ziebell and McMillan are the two main culprits of this. In the third quarter today Ziebell took his foot off the gas and allowed WB to get two of the easiest clearances I've seen while he trialled behind doing bugger all.
McMillan often goes kick chasing when we get in front even though he is meant to be the "leader" and "mr.structures".

It's a coaching issue because scott has continually allowed it to happen across his tenure. It's a game plan issue because we allow such easy swings of momentum and it's a culture issue because guys in our leadership group let it be that way.

I agree with the comment "We get 30 points in front and go into cruise mode." and I do think that part is a culture issue amongst the playing group. We don't ever see ourselves as a side that is capable of demolishing a side and going on with it. We expect sides to come back at us. In the constructionist view of things; 'words create worlds'. In other words, our expectations become self-fulfilling. I can well imagine coaches inadvertantly create this by giving 3/4 time messages like 'Make sure you do such and such because we know they're going to come back at us.' The mindset is then defensive.

I don't think the choke/lose issue has been there across Scott's whole tenure. In 2014, 2015 and half of 2016 we learned and implemented a more defensive side to the game, arriving with Tudor. This helped us tighten up 'run ons' and I expect we'll improve again in this area as this 'new team' develops. As scathing as I've been of Dal, particularly in 2016, I think he was important in this too. Providing a calming, steadying on-field leadership that, up till then, Boomer and Drew were not able to provide. Perhaps it was, in part, a product of the fact that he wasn't required to be an key driving force in the same way that Jack and Higgo are now required to be. That role, if anyone, is one for Jmac to fill; someone who reminds the team to, for example, slow it down or retain possession, or whatever. I haven't been watching him closely enough to affirm or refute your assessment of him though. Higgins could and, I think, should be doing it but is currently filling a more inside role which I don't think enables the perspective required. Unless, of course, there were two of him (ala Dangerwood). I imagine Kelly would enable Higgins more freedom here.

This is also the reason why we have too many talls going up for it. FFS we almost always spoil each other leaving our ground level opponents unattended waiting for the spillage. Dat s**t hurts tbh.

For me, this isn't the biggest 'structural' issue. It's the stoppages. We don't seem to get our positioning right to capitalise on a ruck strength. How often in formal stoppages, and similar 'scrimmage' (it's becoming like rugby) situations do we see the opposition clear the ball and begin an attacking move? Far too often to my untrained eye. I'd love to see a bird's eye view of a 'typical' North set up versus typical opposition set ups. I'm sure you'd discover some major differences. Probably also in the positioning of types of players.

edit: I notice in the time it took me to type this up, you've identified this too.

It gets to a point where on field leadership needs to step in.....I mean there are players there that know the drill. Part of Scott's coaching responsibilty is to spoon feed these players in small spurts at least a year before players like Dumont goes in there on a more permanent scale. I must admit that Higgins has been "awol" a little in recent times.

As much as we can all, with some good reason (eg Dumont >> 2016 Dal) agree that some players should have been given more extended 'training runs' in the seniors, I do think the developmental picture may be bigger than that. The current 'senior' players need time to learn about the leadership that is required. The comment of Cunnington (?) about one day being a younger player, then 'suddenly' one of the senior ones is an example. It's not an overnight, 'flick of the switch' thing. It frustrates many of us that more kids aren't getting more opportunity sooner, but it doesn't mean there isn't a development plan in place. I would imagine Scott has a view of what 2017-18 looks like in this regard that has a very deliberate development pathway for the team, not just individuals. Part of which, as I've said, would involve an increasing focus on defence.

It's the little things that kill us a lot of the the time, for example after taking a mark or receiving a free kick, how many times do our players either fail to get back far enough off the mark to allow proper disposal, or take a stupid 1/2 step off the line and immediately get called to play on and rush the disposal, either that, or due to nobody running to create a free option, get stuck looking for an out until called to play on and rushed again. A lot of this crap should be noted in the video review and each offender made to work on it at training.

I'm assuming all this 'crap' does indeed get focused on in player reviews mutts, as part of individual development.

How rigorous and uncompromising we are with this stuff is another matter. Do we have a 'three strikes' type approach with mistakes by players, including key players? Would we, for example, be prepared to sanction the likes of our best midfielder if he kicks into the man on the mark for a third time, after having previously been highlighted in his reviews? A lot would come down to how rigorous is the analysis to begin with too. Are the line and development coaches as thorough in focusing on errors (and strengths) as they could be? Who's to know? My suspicion is that the coaching philosophy is largely 'appreciative' that focuses on what's working, and while it wouldn't ignore what's not working, may not be as 'uncompromising' in this regard as, say, BigFooty might be.

 

[amaz199]

Good thread.


This season reminds me of 2013 where we had lots of close finishes, but lost about six games by under 10 points. Wouldn't surprise me if we achieve similar results this year. That year, and perhaps this year, the focus was on a fast, attacking game plan. Scott has been on record in talking about a 'structured approach to offence'. I'm not sure we're at that point, but he has, in the past shown a 'back-to-front' approach to development in which attack is learned before defence. That's a big overstatement, but I think history provides some grounding for this view. There is also a fatigue issue at play I think, hence our poor last quarters.


I agree with the comment "We get 30 points in front and go into cruise mode." and I do think that part is a culture issue amongst the playing group. We don't ever see ourselves as a side that is capable of demolishing a side and going on with it. We expect sides to come back at us. In the constructionist view of things; 'words create worlds'. In other words, our expectations become self-fulfilling. I can well imagine coaches inadvertantly create this by giving 3/4 time messages like 'Make sure you do such and such because we know they're going to come back at us.' The mindset is then defensive.

I don't think the choke/lose issue has been there across Scott's whole tenure. In 2014, 2015 and half of 2016 we learned and implemented a more defensive side to the game, arriving with Tudor. This helped us tighten up 'run ons' and I expect we'll improve again in this area as this 'new team' develops. As scathing as I've been of Dal, particularly in 2016, I think he was important in this too. Providing a calming, steadying on-field leadership that, up till then, Boomer and Drew were not able to provide. Perhaps it was, in part, a product of the fact that he wasn't required to be an key driving force in the same way that Jack and Higgo are now required to be. That role, if anyone, is one for Jmac to fill; someone who reminds the team to, for example, slow it down or retain possession, or whatever. I haven't been watching him closely enough to affirm or refute your assessment of him though. Higgins could and, I think, should be doing it but is currently filling a more inside role which I don't think enables the perspective required. Unless, of course, there were two of him (ala Dangerwood). I imagine Kelly would enable Higgins more freedom here.


For me, this isn't the biggest 'structural' issue. It's the stoppages. We don't seem to get our positioning right to capitalise on a ruck strength. How often in formal stoppages, and similar 'scrimmage' (it's becoming like rugby) situations do we see the opposition clear the ball and begin an attacking move? Far too often to my untrained eye. I'd love to see a bird's eye view of a 'typical' North set up versus typical opposition set ups. I'm sure you'd discover some major differences. Probably also in the positioning of types of players.

edit: I notice in the time it took me to type this up, you've identified this too.


As much as we can all, with some good reason (eg Dumont >> 2016 Dal) agree that some players should have been given more extended 'training runs' in the seniors, I do think the developmental picture may be bigger than that. The current 'senior' players need time to learn about the leadership that is required. The comment of Cunnington (?) about one day being a younger player, then 'suddenly' one of the senior ones is an example. It's not an overnight, 'flick of the switch' thing. It frustrates many of us that more kids aren't getting more opportunity sooner, but it doesn't mean there isn't a development plan in place. I would imagine Scott has a view of what 2017-18 looks like in this regard that has a very deliberate development pathway for the team, not just individuals. Part of which, as I've said, would involve an increasing focus on defence.


I'm assuming all this 'crap' does indeed get focused on in player reviews mutts, as part of individual development.

How rigorous and uncompromising we are with this stuff is another matter. Do we have a 'three strikes' type approach with mistakes by players, including key players? Would we, for example, be prepared to sanction the likes of our best midfielder if he kicks into the man on the mark for a third time, after having previously been highlighted in his reviews? A lot would come down to how rigorous is the analysis to begin with too. Are the line and development coaches as thorough in focusing on errors (and strengths) as they could be? Who's to know? My suspicion is that the coaching philosophy is largely 'appreciative' that focuses on what's working, and while it wouldn't ignore what's not working, may not be as 'uncompromising' in this regard as, say, BigFooty might be.

I think Brad knows what's working and what's not and the players are probably taken away from a training session for 5 minutes to discuss how well they have been progressing through 2017 and what to improve on etc.

But I think we are just simply unable to execute a balance of defensive and offensive structures because of our limitations (pace, skill, awareness, experience etc.) and based on that I think Brad is hesitant to make the call to mix things and risk dropping too low if things don't go to plan. i have seen some changes made though...

Saw Tarrant go forward temporarily, JZ went forward again temporarily (not surprising) and we have seen some promise with the Goldstein-Preuss ruck combination. As you said, Higgins has taken some roles in the middle, Swallow (despite his mediocre start to the year) has been moved around but needs a spell. Hansen (intercept marker usually) has taken a 1v1 role with key forwards and he did very well yesterday. Big plus there. There are more things to talk about but I think Round 10-13 is a better time to analyse how the list is going.

On player performances, Brad might be taking a patient approach this year while ensuring we don't get hammered by 100+ in games against top 4 sides. Keeping some players that are almost gone but can still be serviceable until the easier part of the draw makes way for youth.

 

[Horizons_00]

It's all between the ears

We have never had the "foot on the throat" mentality. It's the poor culture at our club

This whole shinboner spirit is just media spin

 

[amaz199]

It's all between the ears

We have never had the "foot on the throat" mentality. It's the poor culture at our club

This whole shinboner spirit is just media spin

The game where Swallow injured his achilles and where we just absolutely demolished Melbourne to pieces after half-time. JZ running through the middle to kick the clinical goal symbolised how good of a season 2013 was for him.

EDIT: I think the Shinboner Spirit is still there but it might be slowly dying.

 

[ozzyoslo]

You're entitled to an opinion and other people are entitled to call out your bullshit.

We can have a reasonable difference of opinion on whether he's physical enough (i do happen to disagree with you), whether quality rucks are over- or undervalued, maybe whether there's anything in naturally north's (possibly scrotum-sourced) opinion that he's selfish or even whether his personal shenanigans have been destabilizing.

But "mentally weak" is some bullshit you made up to slander the bloke because you have some weird agenda.

"I happen to disagree with you" sounds a lot nicer than "piss off with your bullshit" doesn't it??

Personal shenanigans: sounds like excuses again.

And as for my agenda :- I've been stead fast in that opinion of Goldstein for a long long time. Theyre only my honest opinion, when his bus was so full he had people sitting up on the roof and hanging out the open doors. I happily watched him play well and voted for him in the vote threads. People were calling him a "champion" ffs and were lamenting why he hadnt won an AA spot prior to the year that he did.....it was because he wasnt doing all of the things he should have as a ruckman.
Preuss has been playing senior footy for 5 minutes and many here have jumped off that overcrowded bus so quick as if there is a fire onboard how fickle supporters can be.......

I only go on my read of what I see, youre the one quoting stats not me ,what are the stats so far in 2017 Preuss v Goldstein?

Who has selected Preuus into the best 22......when most other teams play one bonefide ruck and a part timer?

Why do the media types offer the suggestion to trade out Goldstein at the end of the season, to free up salary cap space? Dal Santo even stated ( I heard this RZ) when Currie was on our list....gave Goldstein a bath all preseason, during those drills , match practice but somehow Goldy started Rd 1.

These arent my working ol son, these are opinions of paid people making those decisions one who played on our team, again not me.

Remember when ( in one my of my agenda posts way back then ) where I called out Goldstein soft?..... this was in relation to the Hawthorn game when Lewis belted him in the gob and Hodge targets Swallow.....if that wasnt an agenda that day I'll jog down Bourke St starkers. And at the end of the game he shook Lewis's hand ffs (I remind you Lewis's 3 week hiatus as we speak:- targeting Cripps of Carlton) I applaud Cripps for standing his ground and not copping that from Lewis.
If Goldstein had any sporting intelligence he should of at the 1st chance hurt the 1st player he could do it to.......it replies to Lewis and the rest of that Hawthorn team "go on keep playing dirty and we'll do it to" but he didnt .....big blokes are suppose to fly the flag, and he doesnt Im sorry you dont see this.
Again why is Preuss playing? for his efforts over the summer? Im sure there are other lads there who have done the same amount of effort over the summer.