Opinion Our Back Six

[Magruder]

Nick Smith, Brent Guerra, Henry Slattery

Maybe the question should be rephrased to quality small defender...... Surely Slattery doesn't qualify, and I'm not sure about Guerra either.

 

[JustaBattler]

Hawthorn are 'height challenged' in defence - pretty much everyone (including themselves) recognise this weakness - hence the picking up Lane to increase height and size for one last go. Carlton has a smaller defender in Yarran ( think Leon Davis role ) I dont think it is an accident that Malthouse is giving Watson every chance and has Duigan in the leadership group. Tuohey played wing/midfield on the weekend - and Curnow in fact was tried back at HBF - I think the intent is pretty clear regarding height at Carlton regarding defence.

 

[MileHigh]

I remember when Waite played on Riewoldt and kept him goalless whilst kicking 3 goals on him before half time. Lets play him back there and bank on him also kicking 6 goals a game.

 

[gbatman]

I see this as the same thing with Yarran though. If we used Yarran on the really good small forwards we wouldn't get anything from him offensively because he would have his hands full and he is naturally a very attacking player.

To negate the best small forwards you really need to be in their pocket all game, particularly if they're getting a lot of ball coming into their F50.

It's an interesting one. If you play him on the better forwards then he never has a defensive tag applied to him and he will be lead to the football far more. If he's good enough to beat his man for the football and stop a good player then you have to question whether this approach or having him play on the lesser quality opponant where he may or may not be successfully tagged is more valuable to the team.

 

[Sydney Blue]

Great thread!

This has to be the single most important ingredient now (assuming we can keep just some of our tall forward options on the park).

The Carlton premierships in years past invariably boasted a very tight defensive unit.

You just have to look at last years premiers to appreciate just how important the 'back 6' still is.
Swans have such a settled, tight and experience unit. If you watch them, you see them reorganise amongst themselves so effectively, because they just know what teammates are doing & what they will do next.

One could easily argue that this Swans defensive unit, (yes, very fortunate with few injuries last year), won them the 2012 premiership.

 

[Sydney Blue]

A couple of other thoughts...

Firstly, I think that its almost a 'back 7', or one could even suggest 'back 8' in the modern game.

For example...

Swans:
Shaw, Richards, Johnson
Mattner, Grundy, Smith
Malceksi off the bench
Extra tall: LRT switches forward or back as required (e.g. dangerous resting ruck)

Hawks:
Guerra, Lake/Schoenmakers, Stratton,
Burgoyne, Gibson, Birchall
Suckling off the bench
Extra tall: Struggled last year against 3 tall forwards, perhaps Lake helps them fill that gap now

Perhaps someone can recall Mick's preferred defensive structure at the pies... not entirely sure, perhaps...
Davis, Brown, Maxwell
Shaw, Reid, Toovey
O'Brien/Johnson/Clarke off the bench?

So how to describe these structures? I'm thinking:

• 2 KPD that can spoil (Richards, Grundy / Schoenmakers, Stratton / Brown, Reid)
• 1 to take the small/medium forward, with defensive game first (Smith, Guerra, Toovey)
• 1 medium/tall type, third man up spoiling, with defensive game first (Johnson / Gibson / Maxwell)
• 3 medium size half back types who use the ball well, hitting targets or running the ball out, and often playing through the midfield when the team is attacking (Mattner, Shaw, Malceksi / Burgoyne, Birchall, Suckling / Davis, Shaw, Johnson)
• 1 extra tall when required (LRT / now Lake / O'Brien)

So what does that suggest for the Blues? For me (and I suspect many others) 4 players pick themselves - Jameson (KPD), Henderson (KPD), Laidler (HBF), Yarran (HBF)

3 or 4 still to be determined. So many options!

Options to fill the small/medium defense-first role.

• Joseph - worries me too often (Milne, Thomas, ouch!), but do we have a better option to take small forwards?
• Tuohy - fits the Guerra, Shaw, Toovey, Cat's Hunt mold to some extent, but does he defend well enough? has he been really tested in the role yet?
• Armfield - fast, lays the tackle, but is he too valuable elsewhere?
• Walker - please not. Adds valuable unpredictability up forward, especially if Garlett is struggling with form
• Simpson - please not. A game changing play maker and goal kicking mid - far more valuable there right now.
• Temay - too early
• Use a mid size defender. Perhaps, but is pace doing to be the problem then?
• others? (left fielder: Bootsma?)

Options to fill the medium/tall defense-first role.

• Duigan - defensively pretty sound, can spoil as third man up, in the leadership group
• McInnes (on return) - definitely has a good chance on 2012 form
• why not Laidler? Sure, he could do the role, but his better disposal/decision making says HBF type for me, more so than Duigan & McInnes
• White, Davies can't see them in a best 22 (i.e. depth for injuries IMO)
• others?

Options to fill the extra tall role:

• Watson - loads of potential, but is the structure flexible enough to include him? (perhaps yes, or if Henderson/Jameson take some time forward when needed)
• McInnes (on return) - but is he really big enough?
• Laidler? - just not big enough IMO
• McCarthy - too early to tell
• White - size question and not best 22 IMO
• Waite - his contested marking ability in the forward half is just too valuable IMO
• others?

Options to fill the extra HBF role

• Scotland - perhaps for one more year in this role, but does that help us settle our defensive unit for a flag tilt?
• Duigan - defensively pretty sound, but without the elite disposal/decision making, he's more of a defense-first option for me.
• McInnes (on return) - defensively pretty sound, but does he have the elite disposal/decision making for HBF?
• Gibbs - released! (so please No)
• Tuohy - defensively pretty sound, perhaps now getting the midfield time now? disposal good, but is the decision making strong enough yet?
• Armfield - has defensive skills, but does he have the elite disposal/decision making for HBF?

The next three might hold part of the solution, but if they are to become part of an settled, tight, experienced 'back 6/7/8', we might need to give them game time ASAP.

• Lucas - I'm warming to this option, so perhaps patience is required while he is given every chance this year
• Bootsma - Definitely see him as part of the future, with spoiling, tackling, rebounding, disposal skills to take a HBF role
• O'Keeffe - If he can take his chances
• others? some suggesting Graham, Bell

 

[Sydney Blue]

So for me (this week )

Touhy, Jameson, Duigan
Yarran, Henderson, Laidler
Off the bench Scotland and/or Lucas
Watson included for teams that can play 3 talls forward

Not predicting this line-up though, especially now Touhy is expected to fight for a midfield position. Its very clear that the rest of the team will present many tough decisions too.

In fact the main conclusion is: We have so many options... makes me wonder if we might truly be spoiled for too many choices! My concerns are

• we keep trying all the options and fail to settle a defensive unit
• injuries conspire to create the same result

i.e. I know the team is learning Mick's ways, and some patience is needed, but during 2013, I really want to see us settle on a defensive 7/8 players that fit the planned structure, and then stick with it so the group develops all those extra benefits that come from being a defensive team.

A settled, tight, experienced 'back 6/7/8' is absolutely essential IMO if we want #17 in this premiership window that we all hope is opening.

 

[HARKER]

You just have to look at last years premiers to appreciate just how important the 'back 6' still is.
Swans have such a settled, tight and experience unit. If you watch them, you see them reorganise amongst themselves so effectively, because they just know what teammates are doing & what they will do next.

One could easily argue that this Swans defensive unit, (yes, very fortunate with few injuries last year), won them the 2012 premiership.

Terrific post/s as a whole but the bolded, as simple as it may be, is what we need to achieve by having the nominated players really get to know one another as individuals and to practice and then play blocks of games together as a unit.
I know that there's nothing new in this but for now we still have the likes of Tuohy, Watson and even Yarran seemingly isolated at times although as mentioned earlier, they're all just starting to develop maturity and voice.

I also think that Duigan doesn't need to get a lot of the ball, but just to stop his opponent from doing so.
A little tap on for Yarran, Tuohy or the mids to run onto may be just enough to have him locked into the squad.

 

[BlueTongue]

Terrific post/s as a whole but the bolded, as simple as it may be, is what we need to achieve by having the nominated players really get to know one another as individuals and to practice and then play blocks of games together as a unit.
I know that there's nothing new in this but for now we still have the likes of Tuohy, Watson and even Yarran seemingly isolated at times although as mentioned earlier, they're all just starting to develop maturity and voice.

I also think that Duigan doesn't need to get a lot of the ball, but just to stop his opponent from doing so.
A little tap on for Yarran, Tuohy or the mids to run onto may be just enough to have him locked into the squad.

For us, you just have to look back to '95 to see how important a tight defensive unit is. Christou, Silvagni, Rice, Dean, Sexton, Mackay... every one of them a gun and prepared to run the ball out with plenty of backup.

 

[Stamos]

For us, you just have to look back to '95 to see how important a tight defensive unit is. Christou, Silvagni, Rice, Dean, Sexton, Mackay... every one of them a gun and prepared to run the ball out with plenty of backup.

You forgot Whitehead

 

[The_Wookie]

matthew hogg spent some of 95 down back too

 

[Faz 2000]

For us, you just have to look back to '95 to see how important a tight defensive unit is. Christou, Silvagni, Rice, Dean, Sexton, Mackay... every one of them a gun and prepared to run the ball out with plenty of backup.

Also important to note that none of them were really guns right out of the gate, except SOS.

Christou started as a skinny cult figure and finished as a powerful 90kg weapon. Sexton crept up on the league and was a quiet achiever. Rice had a variety of roles after he'd come over from Saints. Even Mackay grew in stature and great deal over the journey.

So looking at what we have now, it might not NOW look like a bunch of world-beaters, but I really think with consistent game time together there's the making of an EXCELLENT backline at the Blues. Fitness to the big boys is just so important.

 

[Jeremias]

I don't know. I think we may have got a little ahead of ourselves on McInnes.
I watched him get beaten to the ball so many times at VFL level, I wondered how he may escape the cull, but again opportunity gave him a chance to shine.
I still don't see Andy capable of breaking into our side should we have most back-men fit and available, but as has been the case so often over the past 12 months, who really knows.

Also feel a little sorry for Davies because he does have some good attributes but I still think he finds things just a little too scary at the highest level.

I know that you are not a fan of Andrew's, and I must say that surprises me; but of course, each to their own.

I'm such a fan of Andy Mac's because when you look at the traits you'd want in a footballer coming through, he just about ticks all of the boxes.

Size? He's got a good size about him but did at times get pushed off the ball. That's not surprising for a player in his first few senior games, but it most likely won't happen as easily with more size and of course experience.

Speed? I don't recall him being caught out for a lack of pace. He's certainly not express but I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's slow or that a lack of speed will really be a downfall of his.

Skill? One would be hard pressed to argue that he is a brilliant user of the ball. He's not noted for his disposal skills but there's no doubt that he uses it well. 79% disposal efficiency tells me that with ball in hand he more often than not knows what to do with it and knows how to get it done.

Defensive ability? Andrew is a no-frills defender who is close-checking rather than prone to running off his man. He's a very good spoiler of the ball, having recorded the second most spoils at the club between rounds 15 and 22.

Ability to read the play? He's a smart footballer and knows how to get himself into the right positions. Recorded the fifth most intercept possessions during his time in the seniors. Not bad for a young player.

Versatility? Noted as a defender and that is likely where he will spend the majority of his time, but he performed very well when switched forward against the Bulldogs.

Good decision maker? If you aren't an above average user of the ball, you generally don't record as high a disposal efficiency as he did without being able to make the right decisions. Doesn't blast away but rather knows to take the extra second to assess his options and pick the one most beneficial to the side.

The fact that at this point in time he ticks all the above boxes is a real bonus and something which holds him in great stead heading forward.

We had a shocking year in 2012 for a number of different reasons however fans have been buoyed by the performances of certain players, particularly younger ones who showed that they have a future at AFL level heading forward. Casboult and Bell are the two who have generated the most discussion and the most attention, but for mine the performances of McInnes were just as impressive.

With regards to Davies, it is no secret that he faces an enormous season ahead. If we were to look at it now, he'd probably be first in line to lose his place. As I have noted with him previously, Mick may take a liking to him as there's no doubt he possesses some traits which scream AFL footballer. His size is impressive as is his willingness to get his hands dirty, particularly for a younger player. However at this stage the positives are matched and probably even overtaken by the negatives to his game, and that's what he needs to work on if he is to have any chance of staying on the list beyond 2013. His disposal is below average and when you couple that with below average decision making it doesn't paint a particularly pretty picture. Makes too many mistakes and that costs not only him individually but the team as a whole. Faces a huge uphill battle to retain his spot at the club and at this stage I feel that the mountain is too steep for him to climb in the relatively short amount of time that he has so at this stage I don't expect him to be here in 12 months time, but I wish him well regardless.

 

[Kramer1]

Also important to note that none of them were really guns right out of the gate, except SOS.

Christou started as a skinny cult figure and finished as a powerful 90kg weapon. Sexton crept up on the league and was a quiet achiever. Rice had a variety of roles after he'd come over from Saints. Even Mackay grew in stature and great deal over the journey.

So looking at what we have now, it might not NOW look like a bunch of world-beaters, but I really think with consistent game time together there's the making of an EXCELLENT backline at the Blues. Fitness to the big boys is just so important.

Good wrap...and Dean's greatest asset being his fierceness for the game/ball/contest/opponent/anyone in his way. Duigan probably a reasonable comparison here...limited footballer, incredible competitor.

 

[Windhover]

I agree with others that getting the back 6 right and settled is vital to our prospects for this year, and the 95 team is a good example of the benefits (but Rice was a forward that year).

Jamison and Henderson are our obvious quality KPDs and hopefully only injury will prevent them from playing those roles each week. Laidler is such a clever player that he becomes the obvious 3rd tall. When playing against a side heavy with talls (say St Kilda with Riewoldt, Lee and Stanley/Kosi) Jamison could take the resting ruck and Laidler the newbie.

Like Gandaalf (bottom post first page) I like Tuohy, Yarran and Scotland for the remaining 3 positions. Of course there is no doubt that Jeremias is right that many players will be rotated through but IMO they remain the core. This leaves Duigan out of the first rotation but maybe not out of the team.

On the debate regarding McInnes I definitely side with Jeremias over Harker. It is always an unknown how a player will come back from a serious knee injury but if he can replicate the form he showed at the end of last year he would get a game in my starting 22.

Finally I noted in round 1 of 2011 Collingwood played 18 of the 22 who played in the grandfinal. The 4 who missed out all retired at the end of the season IIRC. No doubt there will be much trial and error in the NAB comp (with Hendo going forward) but, come round 1 expect Mick's first choice to be out on the park with the added threat that, if you lose your place in the 22 for lack of form, you may have a long way to fall.

 

[HARKER]

I know that you are not a fan of Andrew's, and I must say that surprises me; but of course, each to their own.
I'm such a fan of Andy Mac's because when you look at the traits you'd want in a footballer coming through, he just about ticks all of the boxes.


With regards to Davies, it is no secret that he faces an enormous season ahead. If we were to look at it now, he'd probably be first in line to lose his place. As I have noted with him previously, Mick may take a liking to him as there's no doubt he possesses some traits which scream AFL footballer. His size is impressive as is his willingness to get his hands dirty, particularly for a younger player. However at this stage the positives are matched and probably even overtaken by the negatives to his game, and that's what he needs to work on if he is to have any chance of staying on the list beyond 2013. His disposal is below average and when you couple that with below average decision making it doesn't paint a particularly pretty picture. Makes too many mistakes and that costs not only him individually but the team as a whole. Faces a huge uphill battle to retain his spot at the club and at this stage I feel that the mountain is too steep for him to climb in the relatively short amount of time that he has so at this stage I don't expect him to be here in 12 months time, but I wish him well regardless.

It's a really pity for AndyMac not to have been involved in full training this off-season, as unfortunately that does put him back quite a way after the promising start he had to his career.

It's not for me not being a fan of Andy's, as I certainly think he has some good attributes, but I just see several in front of him for the post he may be wanting to lock down.
McInnes knows how to get to the football just fine, but I just see others able to do more with it once they've got it.
Having said that though, Tuohy and Bootsma will want to be a little more disciplined in order to take lock their positions down in our main squad also.

White is a similar height and may also play a similar type role and if McCarthy comes on as expected, all of a sudden we have twice the quota of defenders that we can put onto the park.

It just seems to me that others will have to do something wrong moreso than for what McInnes may be doing right, in order for him to become a staple player.

 

[Sharks On A Plane]

Also important to note that none of them were really guns right out of the gate, except SOS.

McKay was All Australian in his first year.

 

[Faz 2000]

I stand thoroughly corrected on that point, then, but my general point remains the same/valid.

Never one to actually go and check facts...

 

[Blue since 72]

It's an interesting one. If you play him on the better forwards then he never has a defensive tag applied to him and he will be lead to the football far more. If he's good enough to beat his man for the football and stop a good player then you have to question whether this approach or having him play on the lesser quality opponant where he may or may not be successfully tagged is more valuable to the team.

I've always assumed he was sent to defense primarily to be an attacking flanker.

While he is obviously expected to be accountable for an opponent his main role is to create drive out of defense; ie run forward at every opportunity. Now I dislike Milne as much as the next guy but he is a very good footballer in his role and if you throw Yarran onto the likes of him or a Ballantyne for example he is going to have his hands full when that ball comes into their F50.

And I'm not saying he couldn't necessarily keep them quiet but I don't think we would see much run and carry out of the back line from him.

For mine he's more use to the team further up the ground and as I've stated before I would personally like to see him in a midfield or half forward role. As long as he has the tank he would be very hard to keep out of a game for very long.

 

[Azul]

It's not for me not being a fan of Andy's, as I certainly think he has some good attributes, but I just see several in front of him for the post he may be wanting to lock down.
McInnes knows how to get to the football just fine, but I just see others able to do more with it once they've got it.

I thought his senior games showed some genuine talent. Unfortunately the injury leaves him in limbo with regards the opportunity to impress.

I see him as a taller upgrade on Simon Wiggins - a versatile utility who will dedicate himself to the team and play in a variety of roles, including as a link-up HFF which Wiggo performed with gusto late in his career.

 

[gbatman]

McInness is nothing like Wiggins. He's more a medium sized type like Laidler. Perhaps more an upgrade on Davies. Neat skills and a good brain and looks like a guy who can learn fast. He's a player we haven't seen anywhere near the best of.

And for those suggesting the back 6 we had in 95 weren't anything special, perhaps you need to watch that grand final to remind yourself just how good they were. SOS was a freak, hardly see a player that size who can move like that. Sexton had a perler that day and the run, carry and attack on the ball on a day every one wanted to belt every one was exceptional, Dean was a star, very smart guy who propped infront of Gary Ablett all day and helped nullify him. Did a great job playing lose in the hole. Rice kind of played at both ends back then and Hogg was a handy player, probably similar to Armfield. MacKay was an exceptional hard at everything runner that could read the play and intercept the footy all day. Christou was at his peak and was just a great running player with dynamite disposal. Had his flaws but played his role well. Manton was a bit of a battler but rarely made mistakes and was hard to get a kick against. Loads of AA players in this list. They way that group worked as a team and were all on the same wavelength and positioned and moved the ball was outstanding. Far more than just ordinary players.

Interesting to note, one of the keys with the 95 side was players ability to play dual position. Williams and Brown both played forward and on ball in 95 and Silvagni kicked goals during that season.

 

[zeeCFC]

Andy is just a natural. When I saw him in his first preseason his marking and movement stood out the most for me but last year showed he is a clever user of the ball too.

It was against one of the Bulldogs or Tigers that he moved forward and set up two crucial goals and I hardly remember him fluffing a kick in the back 50 as much as I would expect from a newbie in the senior side (especially after an indifferent period in the VFL).

If he comes back and improves from where he left off he and Watson will be duelling for the third tall role.

FB: Laidler, Jamison, Watson/McInnes
HB: Yarran, Henderson, ???????

I still think Laidler could be a rich man's Toovey in Mick's eyes and play on the smalls. However he'd need to work on his run out of defense. His Collingwood side had Johnson, Davis, Shaw, O'Brien etc who would all regularly be high up the ground kicking it inside 50 or for goal. So far I can only think of Yarran who is a full time defender who does this every match, Tuohy to a lesser extent perhaps.

Interesting year ahead of us!

 

[Faz 2000]

There's not tons of SPEED in that backline, but with Watson, Henderson, Laidler, potentially Tuohy and obviously Yarran, there's some really good kicking skills. Kicking it out is faster than running it out, anyway!

 

[Jeremias]

Andy is just a natural. When I saw him in his first preseason his marking and movement stood out the most for me but last year showed he is a clever user of the ball too.

It was against one of the Bulldogs or Tigers that he moved forward and set up two crucial goals and I hardly remember him fluffing a kick in the back 50 as much as I would expect from a newbie in the senior side (especially after an indifferent period in the VFL).

If he comes back and improves from where he left off he and Watson will be duelling for the third tall role.

The game you are referring to was against the Bulldogs. Spent some time forward of centre where he performed well, particularly as a link-man across half forward.

He didn't spend the whole game in the forward line yet managed 7 inside 50s and 3 goal assists. Had a real impact.

 

[thylacine60]

Andy is just a natural. When I saw him in his first preseason his marking and movement stood out the most for me but last year showed he is a clever user of the ball too.

It was against one of the Bulldogs or Tigers that he moved forward and set up two crucial goals and I hardly remember him fluffing a kick in the back 50 as much as I would expect from a newbie in the senior side (especially after an indifferent period in the VFL).

If he comes back and improves from where he left off he and Watson will be duelling for the third tall role.

Glad I pointed him out to you, Z-Man.