Our future positional structure 2011

[lunacy]

If we manage to keep Tippett at the club we have the makings of a great forward line. The obvious question mark is the (often mentioned) lack of small forward in addition to Porps. I see Porps playing a role similar to Didak where he plays the small/medium forward role as well as some midfield time. However unlikely Didak I would play Porps predominantly up forward as our midfield has great depth. I think we also need a damaging medium forward across half forward similar to a Goodwin/Burton. I assume we'd recruit for these needs by the time this structure is in place.

FF ?Jacky Tippett Walker
HF ?Cook Davis porps
C
HB Kite McKernan Patrenko
B Johncock Bock Young
IR Maric
Int Griffin

As you can see, I'm more looking at the forward line and defense, as well as the big blokes in the side. We have great depth now with our big blokes.

I have Bock at full back as part of my succession plan. By all reports, Davis looks like a great forward option. I can see McKernan playing CHB to great affect. Not the most skillful bloke, but good reader of the ball, strong mark, very competitive, big body, with great agility and reasonable pace.

I like Rutten, but (as I've said before) I don't see him playing on past 28 yrs due to the continued evolution of the game and the speed and agility of modern day tall forwards (McGregor says hi). He is only 190cm and slowish. Bock will be slowing down slighty and can shift to full back making room for McKernan at CHB.

Maric and Griffin can hopefully be 10 yr players. Moran could be a good depth player (if willing to hang around) probably playing 5-10 games a year. Can we play Maric and Griffin in same side if Tippett is in the side as well? I'm not sure, it does mean they'll be occupying a spot on the bench at all times.

Not sure where Young and Lee fit in because we haven't seen enough of them. If Young makes it as a good 3rd defender, Kite would have the agility to play half back on a medium forward (ie Steven Johnson). If young doesn't make it, Kite can play the 3rd defender.

Depending on the amount of talls in the forward line (we know the game is always evolving), Lee could possible squeeze in (if he makes it). I get the impression the crows are looking to a tall forward line.

That would make:
Tippett 200cm
Davis 195cm
Walker 191cm
Lee 191cm
along with 2 small forwards. This may be too tall. Depending on their agility.

I've said this is the possible structure in 2011, but I can see some of these changes being made in 09 and 2010.

Thoughts?

 

[Alex99]

IMO teams that want to be successful must play their best player in there best postions, hence this is why Porps will play in the midfield. IMO that is his best postion and it doesn’t matter how much depth we have, he should play in his best postion.

Walker develop into that stud forward we have been craving since Mods left and any forward line will revolve around him – with or without Tippett. Once he really kicks on, the small forward role in the side will seem insignificant. Or someone will stand up but having Porps play there because we have depth in the midfield is wrong and not rewarding his indervidual talent.

I am not saying you are wrong in your thinking but IMO i beleive Ben Rutten still has 4 maybe 5 years left in the game and most definitely will still be playing by 2011. So moving Bock to full back and playing McKernan at CHB may not happen as early as you predicted. Long term this looks like a plan that can and should happen, but too early to suggest by 2011.

I don’t know who or why but i don’t want all of our current teenagers to cement a spot in the line up because in 6 or 7 year we will be back to square one – ala the Gary Ayres era. I have always thought we should be looking at fast tracking the developing of one maybe or two 17/18 year old each year to continue that team evolution.

 

[Mego Red]

And remember - if we even get a 50% strike rate with our recent draftees we've done an amazing job. Many of these guys just won't kick on.

 

[lunacy]

IMO teams that want to be successful must play their best player in there best postions, hence this is why Porps will play in the midfield. IMO that is his best postion and it doesn’t matter how much depth we have, he should play in his best postion.

quote]

I agree with your point, that's why I think Porps should play both forward and in the midfield. I dont think we have seen enough to say Porps necessarily plays his better footy in the midfield. Porps is without a doubt one of the best small forwards in the league, we can't necessarily say he is one of the best midfielders in the league. In the modern game half forward flankers push up the ground and pretty much play a partial midfield role. They obviously aren't in the stoppages however there are stoppages in the forward line as well. He will repeatedly kick bags of goals this season and have stints in the midfield. I dont think his body is naturally built to be a full time midfielder (lack of endurance etc) however because he is so gifted and reads the play well he still gets great results in the midfield. I think he is more a burst player (not endurance) and therefore to go along with his great hands, goal sense, reading of the play he will play his best footy as an extremely damaging small/medium forward who can turn a game by having small stints in the midfield as well.

Agree to disagree.

To add to the long list of midfielders we already have, Reilly, Knights (who was injured a fair bit), Dangerfield, Mackay and possibly Otten to all make their way into the midfield this year and/or next.

Obviously they cant all play in the midfield at once. Porps is the best natural forward of all our mids. Where do you propose he plays when the 10 or so potential mids are rotating through the middle. Obviously he should play forward and have his share of rotations in the midfield.

 

[KUNG FU]

Stopped listening after the lack of Rutten content.

 

[Mego Red]

Stopped listening after the lack of Rutten content.

I don't know - that was the most interesting point. Not sure if I disagree with the fact that the game might pass Truck by by his 28th birthday. It'll depend if he's able to evolve as quickly as the game does.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

I like succession plan of Bock to FB as I do believe Rutten will struggle to maintain success against the faster breed of forward in 2-3 years. The signs are already there.

The forward line is a tough one. Walker and Tippett are certainties (barring a Queensland move). Perhaps most interesting is who you have left out. Perhaps it is wisely pragmatic but there is no Gill (high chance you are on the money), no Hentschel (i assume due to his injury history) and no Sellar (still far from a certainty to 'make it'). It's nice to know that even if all those 3 are gone in 2 seasons, we still have Tip, Walker and our highest draft pick in 08 in Davis (though he may need till 2012 to develop the body to consistently play CHF). Add to this McKernan and the more speculative Lee and Young and we will hopefully be covered.

I for one also believe Porplyzia will be a mid/forward combo. He is definitely a gun who could be our best centreman (to use an outdated term) but he is not just your average resting mid when up forward. Usually a top mid is more important than a top smallish forward but Porps is a special breed who can pop up with 4 goals in a cameo quarter. Combining that elite forward ability with a tank which is below the elite mids means his ratio of mid:forward should be less than your stock standard midfielder who has a stint up forward (ie Thompson).

 

[Crow Magnum Man]

To me Rutten looked like he was carrying a slight niggle most of season and looked a bit slow, but I'm sure the club would have noticed and has worked on trying to get his pace up to where it was the year before.

 

[StonesThrow]

Its a bit hard to tell now because Davis, McKernan and Walker are yet to debut and Tippett still very raw up forward. They seem to be the lads that they will be building a forward line around. Look at Rutten for example. Debuted up forward and is now a gun full back.

 

[Coopers]

Stopped listening after the lack of Rutten content.

Seconded.

It's BS. Truck is in the team cos bombs into our forwardline = no mark if he's playing.

Also, who is going to stop Johnathan brown and the various clones that will come in future? JB is still the #1 or 2 most effective forward in the comp, and he's not this "new breed of footballer" business.

 

[KUNG FU]

I don't know - that was the most interesting point. Not sure if I disagree with the fact that the game might pass Truck by by his 28th birthday. It'll depend if he's able to evolve as quickly as the game does.

Truck is slow cos he is a gorilla. When clubs stop recruiting gorilla forwards, then I guess his time in the game is limited. Chasing down a leading Brendan Fevola in the "Dream Team" game with pin point supply, he looked slow. Against any number of other big forwards he dominates.

I'm not saying its impossible, but its such a minute possibility that pencilling it in right now for a mere TWO years down the track and then to start planning for that right now is ridiculous. If the thread was about Rutten alone - then maybe it would merit discussion, but to just slide that in there without much thought is a frivolous exercise. Rutten = slow, game speeding up =/ No Rutten

 

[lunacy]

Truck is slow cos he is a gorilla. When clubs stop recruiting gorilla forwards, then I guess his time in the game is limited. Chasing down a leading Brendan Fevola in the "Dream Team" game with pin point supply, he looked slow. Against any number of other big forwards he dominates.

I'm not saying its impossible, but its such a minute possibility that pencilling it in right now for a mere TWO years down the track and then to start planning for that right now is ridiculous. If the thread was about Rutten alone - then maybe it would merit discussion, but to just slide that in there without much thought is a frivolous exercise. Rutten = slow, game speeding up =/ No Rutten

No one is saying Rutten is past it yet, we are merely looking ahead. Certaining Rutten deserves his spot in the side and is currently a great defender. Rutten matches up brilliantly on guys like Tredrea, Lloyd, J Brown, Barry Hall etc, but they are all about 10 yr players and a product of recruiting 10 years ago. You have made my point for me (in bold). Clubs have stopped recruiting gorilla forwards. Franklin, Roughhead, Riewodlt, Koschitzke, Robert Murphy, Tippett, Walker, along with the new guys Watts, Shoenmakers, Davis, McKernan, Vickory etc are the "new breed" of forwards (like it or not). I'm looking forward and saying Rutten will struggle to find a suitable match up when the likes of Tredrea, Lloyd, J Brown, Barry Hall, and Quintin Lynch retire. We occasionally see it now where Rutten has no match up against the bulldogs because he can't play small and against Hawthorn where Roughhead and Franklin both get away from him. Bock however can cover a greater variety of players.

I definitely want Rutten in the side for now, but his prototype match up are gonna be few and far between when all these recently recruited fowards make their mark.

 

[KUNG FU]

No one is saying Rutten is past it yet, we are merely looking ahead. Certaining Rutten deserves his spot in the side and is currently a great defender. Rutten matches up brilliantly on guys like Tredrea, Lloyd, J Brown, Barry Hall etc, but they are all about 10 yr players and a product of recruiting 10 years ago. You have made my point for me (in bold). Clubs have stopped recruiting gorilla forwards. Franklin, Roughhead, Riewodlt, Koschitzke, Robert Murphy, Tippett, Walker, along with the new guys Watts, Shoenmakers, Davis, McKernan, Vickory etc are the "new breed" of forwards (like it or not). I'm looking forward and saying Rutten will struggle to find a suitable match up when the likes of Tredrea, Lloyd, J Brown, Barry Hall, and Quintin Lynch retire. We occasionally see it now where Rutten has no match up against the bulldogs because he can't play small and against Hawthorn where Roughhead and Franklin both get away from him. Bock however can cover a greater variety of players.

I definitely want Rutten in the side for now, but his prototype match up are gonna be few and far between when all these recently recruited fowards make their mark.

Your whole argument falls apart right from the start. Clubs are still recruiting gorillas! M Brown (WCE), Reid, Sellar, Dawes, Hawkins, Neagle... the list goes on. Add to this that J Brown will only be 29 during the 2011 season. Lynch is only a couple months older than Rutten.

A lot of the thin athletic forwards will slow down when they bulk up or have their necks broken when they line up against Truck. Schoenmakers is a 3rd forward who the Hawks are going to turn into a backman, partially because of needs, but I suspect his lack of aggression is a major reason as well. Vickery is a ruckman who pinches in the forward line. Moran/Maric would take him in the backline if that was the case. Watts, Franklin etc are freaks, and we will need to find the right defender to follow them and again I think Moran is the guy to do that, with his pace and height. That doesn't mean Rutten loses his spot. R Murphy is a 3rd tall who S Stevens would follow. Volt also is a Stevens or Bock job. Also, IIRC, Rutten has been effective against Roughead, not an ideal match up, but he still works against one of the top forwards in the league.

 

[lunacy]

Your whole argument falls apart right from the start. Clubs are still recruiting gorillas! M Brown (WCE), Reid, Sellar, Dawes, Hawkins, Neagle... the list goes on. Add to this that J Brown will only be 29 during the 2011 season. Lynch is only a couple months older than Rutten.

A lot of the thin athletic forwards will slow down when they bulk up or have their necks broken when they line up against Truck. Schoenmakers is a 3rd forward who the Hawks are going to turn into a backman, partially because of needs, but I suspect his lack of aggression is a major reason as well. Vickery is a ruckman who pinches in the forward line. Moran/Maric would take him in the backline if that was the case. Watts, Franklin etc are freaks, and we will need to find the right defender to follow them and again I think Moran is the guy to do that, with his pace and height. That doesn't mean Rutten loses his spot. R Murphy is a 3rd tall who S Stevens would follow. Volt also is a Stevens or Bock job. Also, IIRC, Rutten has been effective against Roughead, not an ideal match up, but he still works against one of the top forwards in the league.

I guess time will tell. I still think the general trend of recruiting is away from these big, bulky, slowish forwards. Just because M. Brown was recruited doesn't mean he will be able to thrive in the modern game either. He could have the same problem. Hawkins is the only other player from your list that I'd term a "gorialla". If Sellar was a half decent forward, Rutten would struggle against him because Sellar is 196cm and Rutten only 190cm. Anyway one of the reasons Sellar may not make it (along with other reasons) is that he looks to have lost some speed and agility. Hawkins may be the one that is a real Gorilla. More of an exception to the rule.

I used Vickory as an example because we dont know exactly where he'll play at AFL. We know at least he'll probably spend some time up there. Just an example mate.

Btw Rutten has only been effective against Roughhead prior to last year when Roughhead was very much a developing forward. Dont only look at the net result on the scorecard (which certainly wouldn't be a clean sheet), but look at his personal effectiveness against Roughhead. The afc defence is a tight unit and are great at helping out their fellow defenders. If Rutten was isolated one on one vs Roughhead I'd have to close my eyes and not watch. Rutten was not just destroyed by Fevola in the dream team game becasue of great supply, it was because he wasn't operating in the comforts of the afc defense. Their were no numbers dropping back to assist him. It was Rutten vs Fevola and that's it. Poor truck was soundly beaten.

 

[KUNG FU]

I guess time will tell. I still think the general trend of recruiting is away from these big, bulky, slowish forwards. Just because M. Brown was recruited doesn't mean he will be able to thrive in the modern game either. He could have the same problem. Hawkins is the only other player from your list that I'd term a "gorialla". If Sellar was a half decent forward, Rutten would struggle against him because Sellar is 196cm and Rutten only 190cm. Anyway one of the reasons Sellar may not make it (along with other reasons) is that he looks to have lost some speed and agility. Hawkins may be the one that is a real Gorilla. More of an exception to the rule.

I used Vickory as an example because we dont know exactly where he'll play at AFL. We know at least he'll probably spend some time up there. Just an example mate.

Btw Rutten has only been effective against Roughhead prior to last year when Roughhead was very much a developing forward. Dont only look at the net result on the scorecard (which certainly wouldn't be a clean sheet), but look at his personal effectiveness against Roughhead. The afc defence is a tight unit and are great at helping out their fellow defenders. If Rutten was isolated one on one vs Roughhead I'd have to close my eyes and not watch. Rutten was not just destroyed by Fevola in the dream team game becasue of great supply, it was because he wasn't operating in the comforts of the afc defense. Their were no numbers dropping back to assist him. It was Rutten vs Fevola and that's it. Poor truck was soundly beaten.

Neagle, Reid & Dawes aren’t a gorilla-types? They are huge for their age. Dawes is already 100kg at 193cm! Neagle is 191 & 98. You are out of your element. Sellar is 195cm, Rutten is 191cm. Height has never been an issue for Rutten.

And on Roughead, OK, if you want to notch a win up for him based on ONE game, where he didn’t kick more goals than his average for the year, who else will play on him? Yeah, let’s just delist one of the leaders of the team and AA FB to boot right now. Do you have any idea how rare it is to find a defensive talent like Rutten? Seriously, try to name 8 FBs that will be better than him in 2011.

As for the whole ‘dropping back’ argument – that happens all the time for every team. I don’t understand why people think that makes our defenders any lesser as individual players. Rutten spends a lot of time keeping an eye on Bock’s opponent as he provides the rebound 50.

Oh and pinning your hopes of Young who is just about as slow as Rutten. Sheer lunacy.

 

[lunacy]

And on Roughead, OK, if you want to notch a win up for him based on ONE game, where he didn’t kick more goals than his average for the year, who else will play on him? Yeah, let’s just delist one of the leaders of the team and AA FB to boot right now. Do you have any idea how rare it is to find a defensive talent like Rutten? Seriously, try to name 8 FBs that will be better than him in 2011.

We can continue to go back and forth mate, but I don't think either of us will change our opinion. Only time will tell. You're obviously hurt by my words so how about we just agree to disagree.

Re a better FB in 2011... Nathan Bock. see first post

 

[KUNG FU]

We can continue to go back and forth mate, but I don't think either of us will change our opinion. Only time will tell. You're obviously hurt by my words so how about we just agree to disagree.

Re a better FB in 2011... Nathan Bock. see first post

Not hurt, I just think you're talking reactionary rubbish. Young and McKernan sliding straight into the starting 18 in their 3rd year just seems delusional.

 

[lunacy]

Not hurt, I just think you're talking reactionary rubbish. Young and McKernan sliding straight into the starting 18 in their 3rd year just seems delusional.

Ok mate. I will say though, the common theme to your replies is that you obviously don't read my posts too well. I said "if young makes it", I also said "we don't know much about them yet". Obviously he wouldn't make it in the side if he didn't progress.

You've taken my original thread (which was intended to highlight our great depth of talls and possible structure in years to come) and taken it as fact. It's no different to everyone posting their line up or best 22. Maybe next time I'll send you a rough draft via a private message to see if your happy with it and it meets your standards... if I get the all clear, maybe then I can post my opinion???

 

[KUNG FU]

I rebutted your arguments, what's the big deal?