Opinion Our problems run deeper than Cloke

[Cloke_Room]

So often, and again today, all I hear after a Collingwood loss, is how Cloke is costing the team, how bad Cloke was etc.

Well guess what, our problems run much, much deeper than Cloke.

To start with, we are basically back where we were with Josh Fraser in the side. Our ruckman cannot jump, cannot win a hitout, so our mids are forced to try and rove the opposition rucks work, hence why we are getting flogged from the centre.

Secondly, Under Mick, we were averaging around 10 different goal kickers per week. We struggle to kick 10 a game now. Our disposal is a disgrace, decision making is a disgrace too.

Thirdly, I'm sick of people bagging Dawes. Yes, he has been poor, but atleast he tries. Cloke doesn't even bother any more, so why should we be dropping Dawes when personally I think he's playing better than Travis.

 

[Jelly Bean]

So often, and again today, all I hear after a Collingwood loss, is how Cloke is costing the team, how bad Cloke was etc.

Well guess what, our problems run much, much deeper than Cloke.

To start with, we are basically back where we were with Josh Fraser in the side. Our ruckman cannot jump, cannot win a hitout, so our mids are forced to try and rove the opposition rucks work, hence why we are getting flogged from the centre.

Secondly, Under Mick, we were averaging around 10 different goal kickers per week. We struggle to kick 10 a game now. Our disposal is a disgrace, decision making is a disgrace too.

Thirdly, I'm sick of people bagging Dawes. Yes, he has been poor, but atleast he tries. Cloke doesn't even bother any more, so why should we be dropping Dawes when personally I think he's playing better than Travis.

Trying isn't enough. I could go out there and try. We need to pick people who perform. And Dawes hasn't even been near Cloke in terms of performance.

 

[Dundalis]

So often, and again today, all I hear after a Collingwood loss, is how Cloke is costing the team, how bad Cloke was etc.

Well guess what, our problems run much, much deeper than Cloke.

To start with, we are basically back where we were with Josh Fraser in the side. Our ruckman cannot jump, cannot win a hitout, so our mids are forced to try and rove the opposition rucks work, hence why we are getting flogged from the centre.

Secondly, Under Mick, we were averaging around 10 different goal kickers per week. We struggle to kick 10 a game now. Our disposal is a disgrace, decision making is a disgrace too.

Thirdly, I'm sick of people bagging Dawes. Yes, he has been poor, but atleast he tries. Cloke doesn't even bother any more, so why should we be dropping Dawes when personally I think he's playing better than Travis.

Laughable. Absolutely laughable. This is something I expect to hear in under 12's, not in the AFL where players are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to play footy.

Dawes is not a viable target. He does not have to capability of marking the ball over his head. Hence when the ball is kicked to him it is all but a wasted possession. He is also destroyed once the ball hits the ground by any opponent with even a smidgen of athleticism.

Cloke has been poor also, but none of these things genuinely apply to him. He has proven his contested marking ability, and he is a far superior athlete to Dawes. You give Cloke the chance to turn it around because he's proven he can do these things. Dawes has never been good at them. It's time to find a replacement. We probably don't have one atm so he gets a place, but certainly next season.

It's pathetic how everytime the ball is kicked to Dawes I now regard it as an automatic turnover. Jamie Elliot is a superior target IMO.

 

[SuperSub17]

Laughable. Absolutely laughable. This is something I expect to hear in under 12's, not in the AFL where players are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to play footy.

Dawes is not a viable target. He does not have to capability of marking the ball over his head. Hence when the ball is kicked to him it is all but a wasted possession. He is also destroyed once the ball hits the ground by any opponent with even a smidgen of athleticism.

Cloke has been poor also, but none of these things genuinely apply to him. He has proven his contested marking ability, and he is a far superior athlete to Dawes. You give Cloke the chance to turn it around because he's proven he can do these things. Dawes has never been good at them. It's time to find a replacement. We probably don't have one atm so he gets a place, but certainly next season.

It's pathetic how everytime the ball is kicked to Dawes I now regard it as an automatic turnover. Jamie Elliot is a superior target IMO.

Buddy Franklin doesn't mark it overhead either.

Dawes' strengths should be on the lead, out in front. But when we kick it to him in that situation, we stuff it up. Big players are not great at ground level, and have strengths in other areas. We are not using Dawes (or Cloke) to his.

 

[danielnajdek]

So often, and again today, all I hear after a Collingwood loss, is how Cloke is costing the team, how bad Cloke was etc.

Well guess what, our problems run much, much deeper than Cloke.

To start with, we are basically back where we were with Josh Fraser in the side. Our ruckman cannot jump, cannot win a hitout, so our mids are forced to try and rove the opposition rucks work, hence why we are getting flogged from the centre.

Secondly, Under Mick, we were averaging around 10 different goal kickers per week. We struggle to kick 10 a game now. Our disposal is a disgrace, decision making is a disgrace too.

Thirdly, I'm sick of people bagging Dawes. Yes, he has been poor, but atleast he tries. Cloke doesn't even bother any more, so why should we be dropping Dawes when personally I think he's playing better than Travis.

So you tell us not to bag Cloke yet you bag him in your last paragraph lol.

But I do agre with you on Dawes. For some reason we have alot of moron supporters who bag him yet stick up for a guy who's demanding so much money yet is on par with Dawes' performances this year.

 

[eddiebankbalance]

If Collingwood win the 2012 GF I will gladly celebrate until the next day. This is a year I will like to forget, injuries/injuries/injuries but bombing still continues into the forward 50.

Really looking forward to an injury "free" 2013.

 

[sr36]

Cloke has not had a good year, but he's still taken more contested marks than anyone else in the league and kicked a reasonable number of goals. The same can't be said for Dawes. The real issue is that Buckley doesn't appear to be able to coach. We've got a crap game plan and everyone other than the mids is struggling big time. He's got a couple of tall forwards who are playing different roles to last year and are struggling. As the year has gone on, they've clearly lost confidence big time and he doesn't appear to have done anything to address that. Last year we had a coach who had our team extremely well organised and was a master at managing individuals in order to get the best out of them. Buckley, on the other hand, is a master at handling the media, but that seems to be where his coaching ability stops. AFL is increasingly becaming a coaches game. I hope that I'm wrong, but I think that we are going to waste what should be a period of domination, because we've got the wrong bloke steering the ship and let's face it, if I'm right, the powers that be aren't going to admit error on this one and give the steering wheel to someone else in the near future.

 

[brockbruiser]

Did anyone else notice how easy it was them them kicking out?? As I Recall last year we would work our behinds off to keep the ball stuck in our inside 50. They moved the ball freely up the ground from their kick-ins.

Defensively we have been poor this year! Our defence was once our strength, these days i get nervous when the ball goes into our 50. We allowed too many one on ones last night and more concerning is that our defenders were beaten on one-on-ones. I can understand Petrie as he is a hard man to defend, but even blokes like Thomas was beating Harry O.

Our tackling pressure has also gone out the window, last year we were known for our running, tackling and strong bodies. Too many times players shrugged tackles from our players in particular Clarke, Seedsman, Sinclair, elliot and Didak they all struggle to put a man down.

We were clearly beaten in the ruck last night and I believe the teams who have beaten us this year are the ones who have beaten us in the middle. Goldstein is a very good ruckman and that showed last night. We can't be too angry at Jolly he's doing what he can for an aging ruckman, instead we should be disappointed that our second ruckman Wood hasn't come on to push Jolly out of the side.

 

[Checkside35]

sr36.
Malthouse had a settled side and consistent coaching panel for the best part of two years. These factors mean an easier time on the track, in strategy meetings and in the coaches box on game day. Look what happened in the last part of last year. Shaw misses 8, Daisy misses a month, Reid injured, Neeld gone etc. Things fell apart. Buckley's doing well considering the circumstances.

 

[SnakePlisskin]

Cloke would be great if we used him properly .

 

[SpongePie]

Thirdly, I'm sick of people bagging Dawes. Yes, he has been poor, but atleast he tries. Cloke doesn't even bother any more, so why should we be dropping Dawes when personally I think he's playing better than Travis.

Sorry mate, trying isnt enough. I could go out there and "try" and I could also go out there and drop uncontested chest marks.

He seemed to find some form over the last couple of weeks, and now has gone backwards.

My issue is whenever the ball is going forward, all that seems to be there is Cloke or Dawes. I never see anyone else. Where are the crumbers?

 

[Giant Sphinx]

So often, and again today, all I hear after a Collingwood loss, is how Cloke is costing the team, how bad Cloke was etc.

Well guess what, our problems run much, much deeper than Cloke.

To start with, we are basically back where we were with Josh Fraser in the side. Our ruckman cannot jump, cannot win a hitout, so our mids are forced to try and rove the opposition rucks work, hence why we are getting flogged from the centre.

Secondly, Under Mick, we were averaging around 10 different goal kickers per week. We struggle to kick 10 a game now. Our disposal is a disgrace, decision making is a disgrace too.

Thirdly, I'm sick of people bagging Dawes. Yes, he has been poor, but atleast he tries. Cloke doesn't even bother any more, so why should we be dropping Dawes when personally I think he's playing better than Travis.

Did I watch a different game last week? I thought our ruckman Darren Jolly was one of our best. And at the last ball up jumped high stuck his knee into Mummy and put the ball straight down pendles throat.

I agree our problems are more then just Cloke. The biggest problem is our skills. Not just delivery into the forward line but handballs missing targets from 5 meters away.

 

[sr36]

sr36.
Malthouse had a settled side and consistent coaching panel for the best part of two years. These factors mean an easier time on the track, in strategy meetings and in the coaches box on game day. Look what happened in the last part of last year. Shaw misses 8, Daisy misses a month, Reid injured, Neeld gone etc. Things fell apart. Buckley's doing well considering the circumstances.

I hope you're right and there is not doubt that injuries have played a part. But the fact that all of the non-midfield senior players are struggling big time suggests that something is very wrong. The following players should be at the peak of their careers: Cloke, Dawes, Shaw, Reid, N. Brown, OBrien, Wellingham. All of them are shadows of the players they were under MM.

 

[sr36]

Did I watch a different game last week? I thought our ruckman Darren Jolly was one of our best. And at the last ball up jumped high stuck his knee into Mummy and put the ball straight down pendles throat.

.

The week before against St Kilda, I thought that he was BOG and played his best game in Black and White.

 

[Checkside35]

I hope you're right and there is not doubt that injuries have played a part. But the fact that all of the non-midfield senior players are struggling big time suggests that something is very wrong. The following players should be at the peak of their careers: Cloke, Dawes, Shaw, Reid, N. Brown, OBrien, Wellingham. All of them are shadows of the players they were under MM.

Regarding Brown, coming back from a reco for a bigger player is a two year proposition both in mind and body. It's all about confidence. Cloke is obvious plus we're hurting him with delivery. Clubs have worked out how we delivered to Cloke in the past so we can't put the ball in the area that he used to run in to. The loss of ball in the middle puts a spanner in the works in terms of how others play. I think Wellingham may be a victim of that. Too much to say about that to write it here. Teams isolating our backs was always going to have an effect on the way Shaw and O'Brien play. O'Brien was always suspect under the high ball and body contact on his man. It's highlighted now because opposition deliver the ball differently against us now.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Did I watch a different game last week? I thought our ruckman Darren Jolly was one of our best. And at the last ball up jumped high stuck his knee into Mummy and put the ball straight down pendles throat.

I agree our problems are more then just Cloke. The biggest problem is our skills. Not just delivery into the forward line but handballs missing targets from 5 meters away.

The only reason this is not glaringly obvious to all our supporters is because we have rose tinted glasses on while watching our midfielders. Beams is actually the most reliable at the moment. Pendles disposal has been horrible since his return (will change though), Daisy's has never been a real strength, and Sidebottom is not good kicking while at full pace. Reid, O'Brien and Shaw can all be good kicks at times, but then they have brain fades and turn it over.
We need to get better with our skills. We need to hurt opponents more when we have the footy. Bringing in Johnson will help, but I can't help but feel we need a quick, nice kick coming off half back next year. Seedsman could be the guy for the future, but he is just too raw at the moment.

 

[SnakePlisskin]

To Harry's credit though mate he has been better .

 

[Rustin Cohle]

I've been a Harry critic over the past few months but he has definitely improved in the past 4-5 weeks.

 

[larrikan]

I was screaming during the first quarter...put Tarrant on Hansen. WTF was Buckley thinking putting Shaw on Hansen and leaving him there where the Kangaroos could isolate him. Tarrant reinvented himself as a leading full back at Freo now we've decided to put him forward!!!! He goes back in the second half and plays well. There is NO ROOM for Tarrant, Brown, Reid, Cloke and Dawes. Say goodbye to finals wins with the talls. How quickly we forget last years GF. Elliot and co. should be tired by now - it's just what happens with youngsters. The worrying thing is sides like Hawks, Roos and Carlscum have our game style covered. After the game Bucks said they worked out our game style. NO shit Sherlock!!!! So wheres our back up gameplan??? Bucks also said they were more efficient just like the Hawks game. He is a media master but he says it as a matter of fact like if the hadn't hit their mark we would have won. WE WERE OUTCOACHED LAST NIGHT! Cloke and Dawes were outmuscled...what? yes outmuscled and niggled then they whinged to the umpires. Give me a break...oh Bucks says delivery to forward line was poor at times...really where do these primadonnas want the ball. When it was a one on one contest our forwards still lost. As far as i am concerned I dont think the mids know where to kick it to them. They should have no confidence at all in Cloke and Dawes.

Screw it...bring in Johnno and Swan...use Krakouer as a supersub the rest of the year starting next week. We have no choice with Cloke and Dawes except to hope they come into form. Wood, Paine, Ceglar and Witts are not ready yet for finals despite what you all think.

For me I would love the club to SACK Cloke now but we probably lose our compensation pick so he has us between a rock and a hard place. He is playing like he has an agreement with another club. The players seem to be treating him like that. We're not idiots. On a positive note we should have money during free agency to grab a decent player.

I love Bucks but he coached like a rookie last night.

 

[blaze036]

Every AFL player tries... if ur in bad form u still TRY its just u dont get the ball as much.

Stop saying cloke isnt trying.... everyone knows his trying and the stats back it up. Maybe his got bad body language (his feeling like shit) and isnt getting many disposals (poor form) but his still trying.

 

[sr36]

. Clubs have worked out how we delivered to Cloke in the past so we can't put the ball in the area that he used to run in to. .

He used to run to and mark the ball in all areas of the forward half of the ground. He doesn't run anywhere anymore. It's pretty clear to me that Buckley feels we'll maximise the impact of Cloke's contested marking by having him stay inside 50 and not even lead very often. It's clearly not worked all year, yet the only thing that has changed is that Cloke's confidence has dropped and he has gruadually become more ineffectual. Why isn't he running his man into the ground anymore?

 

[Number 10]

The problem is we are just playing extremely inconsistent pity which happens when u have young players coming in an out of the side and so too experienced players due to injury. It's just not meant to be our year. The good thing is we have these players coming back and we have a bit of time to settle.

 

[Checkside35]

He used to run to and mark the ball in all areas of the forward half of the ground. He doesn't run anywhere anymore. It's pretty clear to me that Buckley feels we'll maximise the impact of Cloke's contested marking by having him stay inside 50 and not even lead very often. It's clearly not worked all year, yet the only thing that has changed is that Cloke's confidence has dropped and he has gruadually become more ineffectual. Why isn't he running his man into the ground anymore?

When the ball is coming in like shite and/or you have opposition players zoning off into your space, you stop leading. Buckley may well have changed his role but it would have to be through necessity. Leeroy's gone and Dawes has taken his part time ruck spot. Effectively, you're one short in aerial contests. Tarrant hasn't been around enough this year to settle in. I don't like what's happening with Cloke but I'm not sure what else the coaching staff could do. Didak's not the player he was in 2010 and so we lose a smart small ducking into space. Blair is playing in the middle more so there's a crumber gone. Fasolo hasn't come on in a consistent manner. Sinclair is hard but isn't dangerous. Elliot needs time. If Cloke's running all over the place, there's no one reliable to stay at home should the ball come in long. The loss of ball has only been covered through our midfield numbers, the real loss is that other mids need to go in an under so the quality of the outside runners diminishes.....hence shit delivery and decisions going forward.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Every AFL player tries... if ur in bad form u still TRY its just u dont get the ball as much.

Stop saying cloke isnt trying.... everyone knows his trying and the stats back it up. Maybe his got bad body language (his feeling like shit) and isnt getting many disposals (poor form) but his still trying.

Seriously. No. I mean seriously??

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

He used to run to and mark the ball in all areas of the forward half of the ground. He doesn't run anywhere anymore. It's pretty clear to me that Buckley feels we'll maximise the impact of Cloke's contested marking by having him stay inside 50 and not even lead very often. It's clearly not worked all year, yet the only thing that has changed is that Cloke's confidence has dropped and he has gruadually become more ineffectual. Why isn't he running his man into the ground anymore?

When did he? He is a hard worker, but he was never a regular 20 possies 10 mark kind of player. Truth is, Cloke is nowhere near the elite best big man in the comp people have been saying he is. Cloke is a good forward, who is prone to poor kicking and weeks of bad form.
The funny thing is, Collingwood supporters should know about his limitations. We have seen over the past 4 years, but because the media is telling us that he is a superstar key position forward, we believe them. There was a chance Cloke could develope into an absolute superstar this year, after his great 2011. But he hasn't. He has shown where his level of ability stops.

The worst thing about Cloke now is that you can see he is desperate to kick goals. Anytime he gets a chance he flings it onto his boot. He is probably worried about his dropping value. A very sad situation, but brought about by none other than Cloke himself. If he had signed for excellent money earlier on in the season then he would be fine. But he arrogantly thought he could up his value through performance while constantly allowing his old man to feed rumours of 1 million dollar offers to the media. The Clokes, David and Travis, should be embarrassed by all this. SOmehow, though, I think they are the kinds of people to believe that everyone else is wrong and that Collingwood is the bad guy.

As for his body language at the moment, interestingly, have a look at the post GF celebrations in 2010. Cloke wasn't looking all that animated. Cloke, to me, seems like the kind of guy who only feels good about the wins when he plays well. Despite him being a very good team player. It's clearly a lot about the way he ras raised.